Michael Bay's thing with black people.

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Eaten By A Grue said:
Now it is in the news on yahoo's frontpage. People are goddamn too sensitive these days.
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I wouldn't mind if it was an uncommon occurrence, unfortunately that's not the case.
 
I have not seen the movie (Transformers 2) but it's fucking idiotic to call a computer generated image of a robot who transforms into a car an obvious representation of a "black person." You're basically saying, "The robot talks black." If you can't understand that Jazz is a machine with no skin pigment or nationality, then you are retarded and shouldn't be allowed to watch movies anymore. Anyone of any nationality can speak like Jazz. I've grown up around kids of all skin colors and nationalities who try to emulate their favorite tough guys by talking with affectations. Does that make them "obviously black?"

Yes, there's racism still in this world. However, putting stereotypical characters in one's movie does not make them a racist. They are obviously trying to give audiences what they want to see.

There are women and children being murdered in the streets for standing up to oppression around the world and you assholes are up in arms about a summer popcorn movie. It's pathetic.
 
usea said:
BUT, I definitely don't believe that a stupid stereotype character is necessarily making a statement that "all people of ____ ethnicity/race act like this character." I think that a lot of offense is taken as if a dumb character makes such a statement, when it doesn't necessarily. Just because a latino or hispanic character breaks off into spanish when he's excited doesn't mean the movie is saying all similar people act that way. That is a totally absurd conclusion to draw. Just using that as an example.
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The argument is not that the film makers are making a claim that all people of a certain ethnicity act the way their characters do. The argument is that, there are proportionately so few minority characters seen in film and television that they bare the "burden of representation". If the only black people you see on film act a certain way, what impression does one come away with? The argument is that hollywood has been consistantly misrepresenting minorities, or representing them in a degrading way, for the entirety of film history.

usea said:
I also don't buy the "well it's wrong because of XXX history." Like some of the early resident evil 5 trailer/teaser imagery. People were offended because it reminded them of real life atrocities from US history. Well who cares? Get past it. Obviously no statement was being made as to how great times used to be or anything like that. I just can't understand why many of these things are considered to be wrong by so many people.
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I won't get into RE5, but I don't think your argument passes the smell test. Negative events from world history are not often embraced by pop culture (for entertainment purposes). A gafer just recently got banned for having an avatar that made light of 9/11.

And the comment in bold is unnecessary.
 
AVclub said:
I have not seen the movie (Transformers 2) but it's fucking idiotic to call a computer generated image of a robot who transforms into a car an obvious representation of a "black person." You're basically saying, "The robot talks black." If you can't understand that Jazz is a machine with no skin pigment or nationality, then you are retarded and shouldn't be allowed to watch movies anymore. Anyone of any nationality can speak like Jazz. I've grown up around kids of all skin colors and nationalities who try to emulate their favorite tough guys by talking with affectations. Does that make them "obviously black?"

Yes, there's racism still in this world. However, putting stereotypical characters in one's movie does not make them a racist. They are obviously trying to give audiences what they want to see.

There are women and children being murdered in the streets for standing up to oppression around the world and you assholes are up in arms about a summer popcorn movie. It's pathetic.
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I honestly don't know where to start, pretty much everything you said is wrong.
 
AVclub said:
I have not seen the movie (Transformers 2) but it's fucking idiotic to call a computer generated image of a robot who transforms into a car an obvious representation of a "black person." You're basically saying, "The robot talks black." If you can't understand that Jazz is a machine with no skin pigment or nationality, then you are retarded and shouldn't be allowed to watch movies anymore. Anyone of any nationality can speak like Jazz. I've grown up around kids of all skin colors and nationalities who try to emulate their favorite tough guys by talking with affectations. Does that make them "obviously black?"

Yes, there's racism still in this world. However, putting stereotypical characters in one's movie does not make them a racist. They are obviously trying to give audiences what they want to see.

There are women and children being murdered in the streets for standing up to oppression around the world and you assholes are up in arms about a summer popcorn movie. It's pathetic.
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Are you serious?
 
AVclub said:
I have not seen the movie (Transformers 2) but it's fucking idiotic to call a computer generated image of a robot who transforms into a car an obvious representation of a "black person." You're basically saying, "The robot talks black." If you can't understand that Jazz is a machine with no skin pigment or nationality, then you are retarded and shouldn't be allowed to watch movies anymore. Anyone of any nationality can speak like Jazz. I've grown up around kids of all skin colors and nationalities who try to emulate their favorite tough guys by talking with affectations. Does that make them "obviously black?"

Yes, there's racism still in this world. However, putting stereotypical characters in one's movie does not make them a racist. They are obviously trying to give audiences what they want to see.

There are women and children being murdered in the streets for standing up to oppression around the world and you assholes are up in arms about a summer popcorn movie. It's pathetic.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLEK0UZH4cs
 
harSon said:
I honestly don't know where to start, pretty much everything you said is wrong.
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Okay then, I defer to your wisdom:
There aren't women and children being murdered around the world.
People on this board aren't up in arms about a summer popcorn movie.
There isn't still racism in the world.
Putting stereotypical characters of any kind in a movie automatically makes everyone involved a racist.
Audiences do not support movies in which blatant ethnic stereotypes are used.
I have not grown up around people of different nationalities who have spoken with an urban affectation to their voice.
Jazz is an obvious representation of a "black man" because he says "brother" and can break dance.
I have seen Transformers 2.

There...that makes me 100% correct now, right?
:lol :lol :lol
 
Come up with a better fucking argument, it's honestly mind numbingly stupid. Not only is someone capable of caring about both but under your train of thought, anything not genocidal is unworthy of recognition due to it being an inferior atrocity.
 
-PXG- said:
ITT : White people determining whether or not something is offensive for other groups of people.
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Nothing is offensive for a group of people. Actions aren't inherently offensive, and it cannot be "decided" whether a thing is offensive or not. That is a misunderstanding of how the whole thing works.

Groups don't think or feel, individuals do. Groups do not take offensive to things, individuals do. An individual can take offense to ANYTHING. That doesn't make it reasonable. There is no reason to restrict your actions and words to only things that nobody will find offensive, because -anything- can be offensive to somebody out there. The discussion at hand is therefore what is reasonably offensive.
 
usea said:
Nothing is offensive for a group of people. Actions aren't inherently offensive, and it cannot be "decided" whether a thing is offensive or not. That is a misunderstanding of how the whole thing works.

Groups don't think or feel, individuals do. Groups do not take offensive to things, individuals do. An individual can take offense to ANYTHING. That doesn't make it reasonable. There is no reason to restrict your actions and words to only things that nobody will find offensive, because -anything- can be offensive to somebody out there. The discussion at hand is therefore what is reasonably offensive.
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*golf clap*
 
usea said:
Nothing is offensive for a group of people. Actions aren't inherently offensive, and it cannot be "decided" whether a thing is offensive or not. That is a misunderstanding of how the whole thing works.

Groups don't think or feel, individuals do. Groups do not take offensive to things, individuals do. An individual can take offense to ANYTHING. That doesn't make it reasonable. There is no reason to restrict your actions and words to only things that nobody will find offensive, because -anything- can be offensive to somebody out there. The discussion at hand is therefore what is reasonably offensive.
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And an individual telling me what I'm allowed to be offended by is somehow justified under said rules?
 
usea said:
Nothing is offensive for a group of people. Actions aren't inherently offensive, and it cannot be "decided" whether a thing is offensive or not. That is a misunderstanding of how the whole thing works.

Groups don't think or feel, individuals do. Groups do not take offensive to things, individuals do. An individual can take offense to ANYTHING. That doesn't make it reasonable. There is no reason to restrict your actions and words to only things that nobody will find offensive, because -anything- can be offensive to somebody out there. The discussion at hand is therefore what is reasonably offensive.
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No shit. :P

I just think it's funny how you guys are thinking waaaaaaaaaaay too hard about this stuff.

I'm black, and if I dressed up and black face, I bet more white people would be offended than black people :lol
 
-PXG- said:
No shit. :P

I just think it's funny how you guys are thinking waaaaaaaaaaay too hard about this stuff.

I'm black, and if I dressed up and black face, I bet more white people would be offended than black people :lol
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Don't you every day? j/k

I'm willing to bet if a white person did, more black people would be upset. I personally wouldn't care either way (I'm whtie, for the record).
 
kame-sennin said:
The argument is not that the film makers are making a claim that all people of a certain ethnicity act the way their characters do. The argument is that, there are proportionately so few minority characters seen in film and television that they bare the "burden of representation". If the only black people you see on film act a certain way, what impression does one come away with? The argument is that hollywood has been consistantly misrepresenting minorities, or representing them in a degrading way, for the entirety of film history.
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The burden of representation is in the minds of those who choose to see it that way. Obviously in the past it was a serious issue with the stupid portrayal of almost all classes of people. Asians, Blacks, Women, Canadians, whatever. However the phenomenon has transitioned from something being imbued into the medium to something perceived by viewers. There are still problems such as almost every movie having a white male lead, but that is another issue.
To summarize: Previously everybody portrayed a minority the same way, because society at large saw people that way. We've moved past that as a society. However, there is a stigma where if anybody does it a single time, it's perceived to be that person viewing them that way again. I am arguing that that perception is not reasonable.



kame-sennin said:
Negative events from world history are not often embraced by pop culture (for entertainment purposes). A gafer just recently got banned for having an avatar that made light of 9/11.
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Making light of an unfortunate event is not the same as people finding event X uncomfortable because it is similar to an unfortunate event. For example, a film using provocative imagery of slavery to enhance a powerful scene.

The whole theme of what I'm trying to say is that the details of a depiction do not determine whether it is reasonably offensive. Just like racial slurs are not always reasonably offensive. It depends on a lot of other factors.
 
Kosma said:
Did you make a thread when Borat got released too?
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Didn't know Michael Bay was mocking social bigotry, my bad... carry on.

usea said:
The burden of representation is in the minds of those who choose to see it that way. Obviously in the past it was a serious issue with the stupid portrayal of almost all classes of people. Asians, Blacks, Women, Canadians, whatever. However the phenomenon has transitioned from something being imbued into the medium to something perceived by viewers. There are still problems such as almost every movie having a white male lead, but that is another issue.
To summarize: Previously everybody portrayed a minority the same way, because society at large saw people that way. We've moved past that as a society. However, there is a stigma where if anybody does it a single time, it's perceived to be that person viewing them that way again. I am arguing that that perception is not reasonable.
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Your post suggests that this is the only case of negative stereotypes being presented in a major motion picture. I suggest you start watching more movies.
 
AVclub said:
Okay then, I defer to your wisdom:
There aren't women and children being murdered around the world.
People on this board aren't up in arms about a summer popcorn movie.
There isn't still racism in the world.
Putting stereotypical characters of any kind in a movie automatically makes everyone involved a racist.
Audiences do not support movies in which blatant ethnic stereotypes are used.
I have not grown up around people of different nationalities who have spoken with an urban affectation to their voice.
Jazz is an obvious representation of a "black man" because he says "brother" and can break dance.
I have seen Transformers 2.

There...that makes me 100% correct now, right?
:lol :lol :lol
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Somebody sees things in black and white.
 
AVclub said:
There are women and children being murdered in the streets for standing up to oppression around the world and you assholes are up in arms about a summer popcorn movie. It's pathetic.
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And you are complaining about people on a message board. Who is the pathetic one now.


Also you say this,

I have not seen the movie (Transformers 2) but it's fucking idiotic to call a computer generated image of a robot who transforms into a car an obvious representation of a "black person." You're basically saying, "The robot talks black." If you can't understand that Jazz is a machine with no skin pigment or nationality,
Click to expand...

and then this
Yes, there's racism still in this world. However, putting stereotypical characters in one's movie does not make them a racist. They are obviously trying to give audiences what they want to see.
Click to expand...

So you are saying seeing stereotypes in movies is retarded and then you say seeing stereotypical black actions is what people expect.

Are there black stereotypes in movies are not?
 
I can take stereotypes as long as they're characters and not caricatures.

This guy
coletrain.JPG

as an example.

When I first encountered I was really disappointed. Just another shittalking buff black guy. But the game made him something more than that. Not too much more but the effort was appreciated and Coal was awesome.
 
Odoul said:
I can take stereotypes as long as they're characters and not caricatures.

This guy
coletrain.JPG

as an example.

When I first encountered I was really disappointed. Just another shittalking buff black guy. But the game made him something more than that. Not too much more but the effort was appreciated and Coal was awesome.
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But EVERYONE in that game is an over exaggerated stereotype. Everything in that game is over the top. That's the point. It's not meant to be taken seriously. If you have to think about "Gears of War" then you don't get it.
 
usea said:
However the phenomenon has transitioned from something being imbued into the medium to something perceived by viewers.
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Can you support this statement statement?

usea said:
I am arguing that that perception is not reasonable.
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usea said:
The whole theme of what I'm trying to say is that the details of a depiction do not determine whether it is reasonably offensive. Just like racial slurs are not always reasonably offensive.
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So...

-PXG- said:
ITT : White people determining whether or not something is offensive for other groups of people.
Click to expand...
 
Our pop culture is a curious balance of racial stereotyping, typecasting, and political correctness. It's not limited to any one race, though

Some companies actually go out of their way to avoid being labeled as racist and make themselves look a little awkward anyways. Ever notice how the advertisements for home security systems always feature antagonists that are middle-aged white guys? Nobody really cares but I feel like the NAACP would have something to say if their commercials only featured young black men.
 
-PXG- said:
But EVERYONE in that game is an over exaggerated stereotype. Everything in that game is over the top. That's the point. It's not meant to be taken seriously. If you have to think about "Gears of War" then you don't get it.
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True. Most of the characters are basically talking scar tissue. But Cole is still based on a stereotype of a black football player. The problem is when people can't filter and process the media they are consuming and accept the stereotypes as the rule. The people who can connect the dots are less likely to be subverted. It's the people who don't see how anyone might be offended that I worry about.
 
Dali said:
I've never really analyzed Bay movies like that, but what you have seems to be a list of stereotypical Black movie character traits. It isn't just a Bay thing it is a Hollywood thing.
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Yeah, I find it funny, and sometimes pretty cool......

Whats the problem? Talk about mountains and molehills and all that. If the black dudes were boring college graduates with a thumb up their ass I wouldn't be interested in watching them.

The main character in Transformers is a goofy white kid, should I be offended?

Talk about looking for stuff that don't exist. The world has gone PC insane at the minute and to be frank its becoming a shitty place to be, with everybody afraid to do or say anything for fear of upsetting some hyper-sensitve weirdo, seriously.
 
Odoul said:
He doesn't even deviate from it a little bit. Sure it's all over hollywood but he seems to specialize in it. Maybe if he threw in an honest black character just once (or his movies weren't so terrible) I wouldn't notice.


I'm not saying it's malicious. It might not even be explicitly his intentions and that really is all he knows what to do with black people.
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scorponok2.jpg


edit: funny little observation. it looks like it says "GAF" on this shirt
 
Yes, I'm sure Michael Bay is racist. That must be why the first movie he directed was Bay Boys, and the first sequel he ever directed was Bad Boys 2.
 
duckroll said:
Yes, I'm sure Michael Bay is racist. That must be why the first movie he directed was Bay Boys, and the first sequel he ever directed was Bad Boys 2.
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don't forget that movie had a scene where the KKK got shot to hell.

that's pretty rac... wait no.


edit: but i get this isnt about bay being a racist but about him and hollywood perpetuating black stereotypes but i dont think he does that either. the black family in transformers could of just as easily been a white family, i didnt see any overt black stereotypes in there. since when is DDR a black stereotype? or computer hacking? or the mom flipping the bird? if it helps, sam's mom could be called stereotypically "white" for the whole hyper suburban image.
 
Odoul said:
And every single one of em is gonna at some point

A. Scream like a child

B. Cry

C. Go on a profanity laced Jesus hallelujah filled rant

and/or

D. Look like a bug eyed fool.

Some people don't see it, open your eyes and look a little harder. It's there.
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Odoul said:
I can take stereotypes as long as they're characters and not caricatures.

This guy
coletrain.JPG

as an example.

When I first encountered I was really disappointed. Just another shittalking buff black guy. But the game made him something more than that. Not too much more but the effort was appreciated and Coal was awesome.
Click to expand...

Cole manages to check A, C and I believe he cried in Gears 2 (not sure). His character is nothing more than a shittalking buff black guy. Srsly, nothing more. All he does in the game is scream "YEAH THE COLETRAIN IS COMING BABY!!!" (which is hilarious BTW). So how is Cole different from the black people in Hollywood?

Besides: if you look hard enough, you can find racism in Spike Lee's films. You are being ridiculous.
 
Megan Fox is a stereotypical hot white girl who's outgoing and tanned, but only attracts buff guys who want her as a trophy girlfriend. That's pretty offensive omg!
 
neorej said:
Cole manages to check A, C and I believe he cried in Gears 2 (not sure). His character is nothing more than a shittalking buff black guy. Srsly, nothing more. All he does in the game is scream "YEAH THE COLETRAIN IS COMING BABY!!!" (which is hilarious BTW). So how is Cole different from the black people in Hollywood?

Besides: if you look hard enough, you can find racism in Spike Lee's films. You are being ridiculous.
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actually come to think of it. when did shittalking tough guy become a black stereotype?

i don't have to stretch my imagination too far to picture cole as a white football player.
 
-COOLIO- said:
actually come to think of it. when did shittalking tough guy become a black stereotype?

i don't have to stretch my imagination too far to picture cole as a white football player.
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Why imagine it? Just watch any of Arnold's earlier action flicks. :)
 
I will never understand why people complain about 'stereotypes' in movies/games/etc as if these differences in our cultures don't exist. These movies are for ENTERTAINMENT. Of course they are going to highlight the more interesting aspects of our society. If they only showed normal black guy, normal white guy, normal spanish guy, the shit wouldn't be funny. Stop being so sensitive people.
 
To kick this thread back to Bay and his racism: Dad takes son to buy car but is a cheapass, his lawn is holy, mom is the typical "I don't know what's going on, but I'll roll along because dad probably knows best"-type, Sam is your typical high-school loser-turned-hero, Mikaela is the typical hot-chick-bored-with-hot-guys-kinda girl, and then there's the typical meany that wants to destroy the world helped by a bunch of henchman, each with exactly ONE characteristic, and the group of heroes, composed of the valiant and wise leader, a dude who does weapons, a healer, a comic relief, and a weaker one that gets the audience's sympathy. Then there's the US Army, who do nothing but scream very loudly and shoot a LOT. Of course, Bay threw in a group of hackers which is your typical bunch: a nerd, a hot chick, and the outsider that is absolutely genius and hacks a signal that the entire department of defence could not hack within fucking seconds. Then there's the secret agency dudes that are so arrogant it stinks and the DoD-people that are fucking stupid and triggerhappy.

GOD DAMN YOU MICHAEL BAY FOR STEREOTYPING BLACK PEOPLE!
 
neorej said:
To kick this thread back to Bay and his racism: Dad takes son to buy car but is a cheapass, his lawn is holy, mom is the typical "I don't know what's going on, but I'll roll along because dad probably knows best"-type, Sam is your typical high-school loser-turned-hero, Mikaela is the typical hot-chick-bored-with-hot-guys-kinda girl, and then there's the typical meany that wants to destroy the world helped by a bunch of henchman, each with exactly ONE characteristic, and the group of heroes, composed of the valiant and wise leader, a dude who does weapons, a healer, a comic relief, and a weaker one that gets the audience's sympathy. Then there's the US Army, who do nothing but scream very loudly and shoot a LOT. Of course, Bay threw in a group of hackers which is your typical bunch: a nerd, a hot chick, and the outsider that is absolutely genius and hacks a signal that the entire department of defence could not hack within fucking seconds. Then there's the secret agency dudes that are so arrogant it stinks and the DoD-people that are fucking stupid and triggerhappy.

GOD DAMN YOU MICHAEL BAY FOR STEREOTYPING BLACK PEOPLE!
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When you describe the movie that way it sounds like it really, really sucks.
 
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