Kabuki Quantum Lover
Member
Regular people are going to go to a store to pick this up. It's in Microsoft's best interests that they teach staff in their own stores as well as other stores about the devices they're selling.
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Microsoft Surface Tablet announced
- Thread starter Windu
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Regular people are going to go to a store to pick this up. It's in Microsoft's best interests that they teach staff in their own stores as well as other stores about the devices they're selling.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
It's pretty unbelievable how many people are in apple stores having long ass conversations with staff about how to do things and what to do and what you can't do and so on. And that's ignoring the appointments you can make for 1 on 1 help.
Microsoft is definitely going to have to step up customer service BIG TIME to match that level.
Microsoft is definitely going to have to step up customer service BIG TIME to match that level.
Yeah, there are definitely a lot of idiots out there who don't even want to take the time to figure stuff out for themselves, especially for new stuff, which the Windows 8 tablet OS will be to 99% of people.
The point is that "Works exclusively with apps available in the Windows Store" does not really make the issue clear to most people.
"You can't install apps on the desktop" is equally as meaningless.
I can see and understand their difficulty though. When you are trying to sell a product you really don't want to spend a lot of time talking about what it can't do. They're trying to sugarcoat their messaging, but in doing so the message is becoming really muddled. So much so that their own employees do not understand the situation.
Robobandit
Member
The most accurate way to say it is "The windows software you know and love will not run on Surface RT"
It would be hard to market that using the windows brand, though..
It would be hard to market that using the windows brand, though..
plagiarize
Banned
i don't disagree. i guess you missed my edit saying that Microsoft clearly need to send their sales people back to training.
i think the comparison page is pretty fair when you read what it says for both devices, but yes, it wouldn't hurt to add on the RT side something like 'Won't run Windows 7 desktop applications' or something.
still, i do think a lot of these 'stupid people' who will buy this not knowing it can't run x64/x86 software won't likely have much x64/x86 software in the first place.
Microsoft do need to ensure their retail staff know whats up though. totally.
That's not really accurate either.... alot of the software people know and love will be in the store just as a metro version.
The best explanation is to say surface will only work with software available in the windows store.
nVidiot_Whore
Banned
Windows RT runs new applications designed for Tablet use.
Windows Pro runs those new tablet applications, as well as any new or old standard Windows Desktop software that RT doesn't run.
Not difficult to market or teach to people IMO.. and it doesn't have to be marketed as a negative or some overly positive spin.
Windows Pro runs those new tablet applications, as well as any new or old standard Windows Desktop software that RT doesn't run.
Not difficult to market or teach to people IMO.. and it doesn't have to be marketed as a negative or some overly positive spin.
Doesn't work.
"I bought a copy of Quicken a few months ago. I see Quicken is in the Windows Store. So that means I can install my copy of Quicken onto the Surface!"
No, it means you have to buy another copy of Quicken in the Windows Store and install that.
The situation is pretty much the same as OSX and iOS, except that Apple has pretty clearly delineated the difference between the two operating systems in name and fucntion. MS has two operating systems both called Windows, both being simultaneously launched and co-marketed. The differences between them are being buried in fine print and confusing language.
Anton Sugar
Member
This. They just need to be trained/learn how to present the Windows Store and liken "apps" to programs.
"No. It only installs apps from the Windows Store."
Ta-da!
LukasTaves
Member
But then there are desktop apps listed on the store which won't run on RT XD
Dreams-Visions
Member
Will they ever release an version of Outlook for RT? My understanding is that RT Office will only support the default Win8RT mail client?
plagiarize
Banned
nice. Word RT still has all the track changes loveliness I adore it for.
Dreams-Visions
Member
huh.
no marcos, add-ins, forms, mail sending, or skydrive integration. I know it's not bare bones...but gotdayum if it doesn't feel barebones-ish.
also...damn...no audio/video recording in OneNote. That was half of what made OneNote so cool as a note-taking application. Then again, RT doesn't support pen input, so I guess it doesn't matter what they do with OneNote. It's useless without pen support.
nVidiot_Whore
Banned
No Outlook for now.
I think it goes hand in hand with no ability to join a domain. They are not positioning RT for heavy business use.
Not that Outlook can't be used for personal use, but it might simply be a way to encourage businesses to spend money on the more expensive and profitable Pro Version.. considering how much in general businesses leverage office integration, customize office and Outlook, etc. it might not be worth the effort to produce an Outlook for RT.
x86 Office is just a much more extensive product.. with hooks into the operating system itself that likely weren't re-designed for ARM.
Is any of that in OneNote MX?
I'm sure those won't appear if the store detects you are on an ARM device
The options to capture from the camera is there (through the app contract) but I don't have a camera to test if it will actually do it. No audio but that would also be theoretically possible as well through the app contract.
I'm not sure that's true?
Anton Sugar
Member
I'm a little confused on this. The FAQ says both:
AND
I'm guessing it's saying that, you cannot use the Skydrive desktop client to access (open/save) Skydrive files?
plagiarize
Banned
you just can't sync your skydrive to the tablet. you can still access, edit, create, whatever your skydrive documents.
LukasTaves
Member
That makes sense. Then yeah, Ms should keep it simple to avoid confusion.
Anton Sugar
Member
Gotcha. So it's not really a Office RT limitation, just a Skydrive/Windows RT limitation in general.
LukasTaves
Member
It can open, edit and save directly to skydrive, but it won't create the skydrive folder the desktop client creates which keep files in your device in sync all the time with the cloud.
Probably something to do with available storage, on 20+GB avaliable on a 32gb unit surely its better managing your skydrive files online, that way they won't use those precious MB, but I hope MS is smart on this and have Office RT saving a local file too
From a few sources I poked around to:
Pen support
Surface RT: Capacitive pen supported (but not included)
Surface Pro: Includes pen (digital ink digitizer)
brotkasten
Member
Sources. Really.
A source familiar with the matter told me that all capacitive screens support capacitive pens.
Exclusive: iPad supports pen input!
Baconsammy
Banned
How far behind the pen will the ink be? On iPad it's pretty useless since the delay is so long.
yeah, this is the main reason these things don't work.
Microsoft Research have a solution but it's probably a few years out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvQCPLkPt4
Dreams-Visions
Member
oic.
Rand0m TAG
Member
this shit is confusing, what is the exact difference between RT and pro.
That's the question everyone's been asking but Microsoft has refused to give details until launch day.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
RT is for beginners and Pro is for experts.
But yeah. MAINLY, RT only uses the metro interface and metro apps. The only other programs it can run is office I believe. Which will run in desktop mode I guess until they make metro versions.
Pro is the full operating system with high specs and everything. It's a full computer. It can do everything a computer does.
Then there's other differences like pro models seem to have usb 3.0, at least most do, digitizer pens, etc...
...
.......or something.
Dreams-Visions
Member
the main difference:
RT - cheaper and will ONLY run apps sold from the Windows Store. This means you don't install apps like you do on Windows as you're used to. If it's not in the Windows Store, you can't use it on an RT device. It has a normal desktop, but don't let the smooth taste fool you.
Pro - All normal Windows apps can be installed in addition to apps on the Windows Store. They will be significantly more expensive than RT's, but it's the full Windows experience you're used to.
Also, the Pro's will have higher resolution screens, beefier processors, USB charging, and a screen that offers the best type of pen support.
Not true at all, Acer W510 is the same price as Surface RT, Samsung 500T and Levono Lynx are $650.
Rand0m TAG
Member
thanks for the quick reply. still cant make up my mind if i should preorder or wait. the surface is pretty much going to replace my ipad
-Pyromaniac-
Member
Well if you want a tablet replacement, no sense in waiting, just get the Surface.
If you want something that can actually be a full computer/laptop replacement and a tablet, then wait for the Surface Pro.
Rand0m TAG
Member
know the release date and an estimate price?
-Pyromaniac-
Member
Surface pro is supposedly coming out a few months after the RT tablet. So I'd guess January/feb at most. It won't cost less than 900 bucks for the base model I would bet (I'm basing this off of 3rd party pro models coming out soon and also the price of the surface RT). I'd guess 900-1400 depending on corei5/i7/with cover/without cover/etc...
Rand0m TAG
Member
so essentially RT is like iOS and pro is like mountain lion.
gonna go for RT, pro is for sure out of my price range
gonna go for RT, pro is for sure out of my price range
Eh, not the best analogy.
I'd say it's more like two versions of Mountain Lion that can both install and run iOS apps, but one of those versions (RT) can't install any Mac apps other than those included with the system (Finder, Safari, etc).
+ all those Apps directly from Windows Store (App Store).
Penguins&PolarBears
Member
I think people aren't upset because it's Windows, for the same price as a 16GB iPad you're still getting more storage space (over 20GB), you're getting a free copy of MS Office 2013 which now has been increased in price to $140 per user, you're getting a micro SDXC slot which lets you add up to 64GB more storage, plus a USB 2 slot for additional storage and file transfer. Pretty hard to complain when the alternative is buying an iPad that has less than 16GB, no Office, no SD slot, no USB, no video out ports, etc.
As far as the 7" media consumption device? I don't think that's Microsoft's goal with Windows 8 or Surface. If Microsoft does decide to go after that cheap 5-7" device category they might be smarter to use Windows Phone 8 OS.
BTW, worth mentioning that Microsoft is drastically increasing the cost of MS Office 2013. They are taking away the ability to buy one copy of Office for multiple computers (without a subscription) and raising the price significantly for every edition.
Dreams-Visions
Member
lol.
Were those the only factors and features to consider, sure. You can make your point without being intellectually dishonest.
Penguins&PolarBears
Member
What are the other factors to consider regarding storage space???
Don't appreciate being called intellectually dishonest with absolutely nothing to back it up.
LukasTaves
Member
As others may have already said:
- WinRT has a limited desktop: Some desktop features are not available in the RT version (joining a domain, or being a host for remote desktop access for instance), the wRT desktop also won't allow you to run any of the currently desktop applications, except for the few ones that come pre-loaded with it (IE, Office, Explorer, paint...)
- Other than the preloaded applications, wRT can only install and run metro/modern ui apps. Those apps are usually distributed (but not limited to) the integrated app store. Those are mobile oriented apps, they are full screen, are developed with touch in mind, and follow a stricter set of rules on performance/battery life/security than a regular desktop application. They are more like the kind of applications that you would find on Android and iPads, than on windows 7.
- By default, the only way to install applications on wRT is through the app store. However, if you have a developer license, or purchase an additional license upgrade you can install metro applications bypassing the store. That way you can use your device for testing an application you are developing, or you can install a custom made application that was developed for you or your company.
The pro version has the same new platform where metro applications run (and likely with the same restrictions) but it has the same full featured desktop of the windows 7 (actually, it has a few more features, but you get the point
)Hope i could help
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