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[plagiarize]

I maintain that Metro apps will see little to no adoption in the traditional notebook/desktop market. However, they have a decent chance with touch devices.

notebooks will probably see some adoption, especially if touch screens start becoming common on them, and i can't see why they wouldn't. i can also see a notebook user using something like a netflix metro app over the web version, touchscreen or no.

desktops, you'll get some people using a dockable app, and you'll get some people buying touchscreens, but not many i'd expect. games might do alright on desktops if and when they start showing up.

 

[strata8]

I've been making HTML apps for Android and iOS for years, also Lua, there's even middleware that lets you code native iOS apps in Java.

The big issue on Windows 8 is that none of my UI code is reusable because the design language is so different. It is nice to not have to use Cordova to build HTML apps on Windows 8 but ultimately it just brings them to parity with the other platforms.

Interesting, I didn't know that was possible. Does Cordova provide APIs for animations, etc?

 

[hwalker84]

And...I'm sold.

Put out a decent game that will let me use my 360 controller...BAM!

LOL....release a Halo spin off FPS...even if it has shite graphics...

I know a few years ago...I saw someone using a PSP to remote into their PS3 to play their PS3 game.

Why couldn't something similar be done with the surface?

My Microsoft Store doesn't open until the 26th. If reviews are solid I hope to get one that day. Hopefully I can call to reserve one that morning.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

And...I'm sold.

Put out a decent game that will let me use my 360 controller...BAM!

why would that make or break a purchase decision? any x86 PC will be able to use any of the controller drivers that allow you to use a 360 controller, PS3 controller, arcade stick, flight stick, etc. to play games.

You can use a 360 controller or emulate a 360 controller with a PS3 controller or some other pad, and that's been true for years. You won't need a Surface for that.

Honestly, your whole post reads like you've never used a PC to game on in the last 10 years.

 

[lastflowers]

notebooks will probably see some adoption, especially if touch screens start becoming common on them, and i can't see why they wouldn't. i can also see a notebook user using something like a netflix metro app over the web version, touchscreen or no.

desktops, you'll get some people using a dockable app, and you'll get some people buying touchscreens, but not many i'd expect. games might do alright on desktops if and when they start showing up.

<MS Employee on WP>

I use the metro Netflix app on my desktop once someone mentioned it's existence to me. I can't complain.

Some of the twitter apps are junk for what I want out of them: SnapState ONLY. I'll check 'em out once I get my surface to see if they're updated a bit. I'm not expecting revolutions for the first month.

Sunday Football here I come.

why would that make or break a purchase decision? any x86 PC will be able to use any of the controller drivers that allow you to use a 360 controller, PS3 controller, arcade stick, flight stick, etc. to play games.

You can use a 360 controller or emulate a 360 controller with a PS3 controller or some other pad, and that's been true for years.

Honestly, your whole post reads like you've never used a PC to game on in the last 10 years.

I think it's more because of our thought process on what a 'tablet' is. I'm still coming to grips with the Surface PRO running the same version of windows as my desktop. That comes with everything I could install on it. While I recognize this is the case, it's still hard to wrap my head around what that suggests can be possible in the tablet form-factor. That isn't to say that Android can't do any of these things, but most , not all, of the android tablets I've messed around with have been junk.

 

[Robobandit]

The wait over the next week for the surface is going to be tough..

Hopefully we'll start seeing some hands on and reviews from media leading up to launch.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I think it's more because of our thought process on what a 'tablet' is. I'm still coming to grips with the Surface PRO running the same version of windows as my desktop. That comes with everything I could install on it. While I recognize this is the case, it's still hard to wrap my head around what that suggests can be possible in the tablet form-factor. That isn't to say that Android can't do any of these things, but most , not all, of the android tablets I've messed around with have been junk.

Never bought or tried a Windows TabletPC before. Okay.

Yea I've been using TabletPC's for the last 3 years. Nothing magical to me about it to me. I do look forward to the upgrades that time has provided in this space. But yea, all this whimsical stuff people are talking about is old hat.

 

[Xplatformer]

why would that make or break a purchase decision? any x86 PC will be able to use any of the controller drivers that allow you to use a 360 controller, PS3 controller, arcade stick, flight stick, etc. to play games.

You can use a 360 controller or emulate a 360 controller with a PS3 controller or some other pad, and that's been true for years. You won't need a Surface for that.

Honestly, your whole post reads like you've never used a PC to game on in the last 10 years.

Why would it make or break? Because I find the ability to hook my 360 controller up to a tablet a plus. Do I need to explain to you why that is of perceived value to me? No.

Just as the expandable memory, the little stand and the additional keyboard may seem like stupid reasons to you to validate a purchase, I really don't care. You don't control my money or my thought process.

LOL at you thinking I care how my post about purchasing something is perceived here on gaf.

 

[nVidiot_Whore]

Why would it make or break? Because I find the ability to hook my 360 controller up to a tablet a plus. Do I need to explain to you why that is of perceived value to me? No.

Just as the expandable memory, the little stand and the additional keyboard may seem like stupid reasons to you to validate a purchase, I really don't care. You don't control my money or my thought process.

LOL at you thinking I care how my post about purchasing something is perceived here on gaf.

I think his point is:

There are numerous tablets currently on the market that support 360 controllers, and there have been for some time.

These tablets will also work with Windows 8.

It's more of a wording issue I guess.. otherwise you sound like you weren't aware of this. "Finally a tablet I actually WANT that supports 360 controllers, unlike the numerous one's available for years."

At least I'm guessing that's what DV was getting at.

 

[PolishQ]

I'm pretty clueless when it comes to the Surface Pro's CPU and graphics capabilities. What sorts of Windows games can we expect this to run? Portal 2? Dark Souls? If I can play Dark Souls on a tablet, I'm sold.

 

[brotkasten]

I'm pretty clueless when it comes to the Surface Pro's CPU and graphics capabilities. What sorts of Windows games can we expect this to run? Portal 2? Dark Souls? If I can play Dark Souls on a tablet, I'm sold.

Don't expect more than very light gaming.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5872/intel-dual-core-ivy-bridge-launch-and-ultrabook-review/5

Games like XBLA ports from the Windows Store should run absolutely fine, though.

 

[TxdoHawk]

Reviews on the 23rd, eh? We shall see, I guess.

I really don't want MS to mess this up, W8 RT could potentially be the competition that forces other tablet makers to turn their $500+ touchscreen toys into real devices that can handle both entertainment and productivity without serious sacrifices. This could be what pushes tablets in the right direction. I am not exactly filled with confidence, however, in their strategy so far.

 

[plagiarize]

<MS Employee on WP>

yeah. no.

i really like Windows Phone 7, so it shouldn't be a surprise that i like where they're going with Windows 8 and RT. it's missing some key apps, which is a big minus obviously. game support hasn't been very good either.

tying everything together with Windows 8, RT and Phone 8 is either going to be the biggest disaster in MS history or it's going to work and shore up software support for Phone 8 and RT. I have no idea if it'll work and it's exciting to be at such a potential turning point. And like I said, I don't think Surface has to succeed for it to get continued app support given Windows 8 and how that's being positioned, so I feel good about my surface pre-order right now.

Surface RT is no iPad killer, that's for sure. not yet. not at that price. but as an individual, i think it's really cool and I had the $650 dollars to get one for me and my wife to share. she was into the idea too, or i wouldn't have bothered. she's probably more of an MS fan than i am, what with her Zune and all.

maybe enough people want a tablet that can also be used for productivity? i know i do. but i know most people buying iPads sure don't feel that way and those aren't exactly slow to sell.

 

[coldfoot]

notebooks will probably see some adoption, especially if touch screens start becoming common on them, and i can't see why they wouldn't. i can also see a notebook user using something like a netflix metro app over the web version, touchscreen or no.

I don't see touchscreens becoming the norm on notebooks. Anything over 10" is too cumbersome and unwieldy to be used as a tablet, and it will add cost as well. And the only example you give is a free video app that's not going to make any money for Microsoft.

desktops, you'll get some people using a dockable app, and you'll get some people buying touchscreens, but not many i'd expect. games might do alright on desktops if and when they start showing up.

Don't see how it could surpass Steam on desktops. There is a reason people use WINDOWS on their computers, which is the ability to have more than one window on the screen.

Metro on anything other than a tablet/phone is going to be as useful as Vista gadgets.

 

[plagiarize]

I don't see touchscreens becoming the norm on notebooks. Anything over 10" is too cumbersome and unwieldy to be used as a tablet, and it will add cost as well. And the only example you give is a free video app that's not going to make any money for Microsoft.

i don't care if Microsoft make money or not. i just gave an example of the sort of software i could see a netbook user without a touchscreen actually use the metro version of. i also don't think touchscreen are going to become the norm, but i see them becoming common sure.

common != the standard/the norm.

Don't see how it could surpass Steam on desktops. There is a reason people use WINDOWS on their computers, which is the ability to have more than one window on the screen.

Metro on anything other than a tablet/phone is going to be as useful as Vista gadgets.

who said anything about surpassing anything? i said some games from the store might do alright. i mean, if Peggle 2 or something launches as a Metro exclusive app (which it won't, but random example and all that) I think people would buy it and use it whether they had a touchscreen or not. that's all i was saying.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I think his point is:

There are numerous tablets currently on the market that support 360 controllers, and there have been for some time.

These tablets will also work with Windows 8.

It's more of a wording issue I guess.. otherwise you sound like you weren't aware of this. "Finally a tablet I actually WANT that supports 360 controllers, unlike the numerous one's available for years."

At least I'm guessing that's what DV was getting at.

yes, that's what I was trying to say.

PC's aren't like videogame consoles. Any piece of universal hardware like a 360 controller that will work on a Surface will also work on any other TabletPC. You can use a 360 controller on a Surface...or a Dell...or a lenovo...or a Samsung...or a DIY Clevo. It's just a matter of drivers, and generic 360 controller drivers have been available for some time on Windows (read: several years), along with PS3 and Wii controller drivers (bluetooth and USB). As such, I don't see why this specific thing (360 controllers on Surface) should be the reason anyone is buying one TabletPC over another. All will do it, and everyone should be clear on that. All x86/x64 Windows 7/8 tablets will support controllers because...they're x86/x64 computers running regular Windows. Same goes for Kinect, which already has several applications in Windows. Think about them like laptops without a keyboard permanently attached to the screen.

The only hardware that the Surface will support exclusively is MS' snap keyboards.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Tons of Surface ads in the DC metro.

 

[clav]

Microsoft films a drop test: http://youtu.be/FDD6DVc0Mb8

 

[brotkasten]

Microsoft films a drop test: http://youtu.be/FDD6DVc0Mb8

Here is what the test looks like from the other side.
http://youtu.be/OVSyp9OUM1s?t=22s

 

[Jeels]

Cancelled my preorder.

$600 is just too much when my laptop already has Windows 8 on it. What am I buying it for exactly then? The touch capabilities?

What I really want is something light I can take to school, it was in that respect that I kind of preordered without really thinking about it.

Anyone want to persuade me otherwise? I am so indecisive.

 

[Tathanen]

Cancelled my preorder.

$600 is just too much when my laptop already has Windows 8 on it. What am I buying it for exactly then? The touch capabilities?

What I really want is something light I can take to school, it was in that respect that I kind of preordered without really thinking about it.

Anyone want to persuade me otherwise?

To me, "touch" is what makes Windows 8 work. The Metro stuff, the start menu, I've always been worried about it and a mouse. But if I have what's basically a laptop where I can also touch the screen, I can see myself just reaching up and tapping the screen for anything metro. A tap here, a flick there, return to keyboard to type. If I launch the desktop, use mouse there.

I haven't actually USED windows 8, but it just works better in my head that way. Enough so that I'll probably keep it off my desktop PC, and only load it on hybrid touch devices.

 

[SeaOfMadness]

To me, "touch" is what makes Windows 8 work. The Metro stuff, the start menu, I've always been worried about it and a mouse. But if I have what's basically a laptop where I can also touch the screen, I can see myself just reaching up and tapping the screen for anything metro. A tap here, a flick there, return to keyboard to type. Go to desktop, use mouse there.

I haven't actually USED windows 8, but it just works better in my head that way. Enough so that I'll probably keep it off my desktop PC, and only load it on hybrid touch devices.

Using Windows 8 on a touch device is way way way better than on desktop. Some of the MS stores have the Samsung slates set up with Win8 on them and using it on one of those is a joy. It's so smooth, so fluid and just so different than using a mouse/keyboard. It all really starts to make sense when you start using Win8 that way. I played with the Skyscanner app (a flight search app) and it's so smooth and pleasant to use. Hard to describe until you experience it for yourself.

 

[Cj70]

Looks like the 32GB with no cover, Cyan cover and Black cover are sold out in the UK now too.

Still hovering over the buy button

 

[plagiarize]

Cancelled my preorder.

$600 is just too much when my laptop already has Windows 8 on it. What am I buying it for exactly then? The touch capabilities?

What I really want is something light I can take to school, it was in that respect that I kind of preordered without really thinking about it.

Anyone want to persuade me otherwise? I am so indecisive.

if you're going to be doing a lot of typing on the thing, I don't think a surface is the way to go unless you don't mind plugging in a proper keyboard too, not that those are expensive. for your main device, I don't think the RT makes sense. a laptop, or wait for the pro. as a companion to your main laptop or PC to have for those times when you don't want a full laptop? if that's worth $600 to you (it is to me, but i'm going to be sharing mine with the wife) that's when I think it makes sense.

 

[Windu]

Cancelled my preorder.

$600 is just too much when my laptop already has Windows 8 on it. What am I buying it for exactly then? The touch capabilities?

What I really want is something light I can take to school, it was in that respect that I kind of preordered without really thinking about it.

Anyone want to persuade me otherwise? I am so indecisive.

get a windows 8 tablet with an atom processor.

 

[Penguins&PolarBears]

Looks like these are selling pretty well. All versions are now backordered in the US.


Not sure if it's been mentioned or anyone knows, but is the outside of the optional touch cover accessories soft touch or polyurethane?

I've seen some shots of the black cover and it is soft touch felt design, but the color options look like they're vinyl instead. Can't really tell. I would definitely want the soft felt design.

 

[dwebo]

that displaymate guy did a short bit about the sharpness claims:
http://www.displaymate.com/news.html#11

Will ClearType Sub-Pixel Rendering on the Microsoft Surface Improve its Sharpness?

Back in my 2011 iPad 2 and iPhone 4 Display Shoot-Out I pointed out that the sharpness and text quality on the 1024x768 132 Pixels Per Inch PPI iPad 2 could be significantly improved by using Sub-Pixel Rendering rather than the Pixel Rendering that is used on the iPads and iPhones. And I did a side-by-side comparison between the iPad 2 and an essentially identical Asus Netbook with a 1366x768 130 PPI display that had Microsoft's implementation of Sub-Pixel Rendering, which they call ClearType. With Sub-Pixel Rendering the individual Red, Green and Blue Sub-Pixels are treated as independent addressable image elements and are not all bound together into specific Pixels. In some cases Sub-Pixel Rendering can make the screen appear to have up to 3 times the resolution of Pixel Rendering.

Microsoft Surface RT: This issue is surprisingly relevant again for the upcoming Microsoft Surface RT Tablet, which has a 1366x768 148 PPI screen that is fairly similar to the iPad 2 1024x768 132 PPI screen. So the question is how will it compare with the iPad 2, and especially now with the equivalently priced much higher resolution new iPad 3? While I haven't yet seen the Microsoft Surface RT Tablet, its screen specs are almost identical to the Asus Netbook so I repeated the Display Shoot-Out - this time with both the iPad 2 and the new iPad 3, which has a 2048x1536 264 PPI screen. A CNET article quotes Microsoft as claiming that the Surface RT is sharper than the new iPad 3. So I decided to do a comparable test with the Asus Netbook standing in for the Surface RT.

The Shoot-Out: I ran the Safari Browser on all 3 displays and compared them side-by-side using the New York Times website front page with its small text. All 3 displays have the same 5.9 inch screen height in Landscape mode, so it was an excellent and very fair comparison.

The Result: The Windows ClearType 768p display on the Asus Netbook was significantly sharper than the iPad 2 768p display but also significantly less sharp than the new iPad 3 1536p display. It is certainly possible that the Microsoft Surface RT Tablet will perform better than the Asus Netbook, but it is very unlikely that it will turn out to be visually sharper than the new iPad 3. On the other hand the Windows Pro version of Surface will have a 1920x1080 208 PPI screen, and it is quite possible that it will be comparable in sharpness to the new iPad 3 with 2048x1536 264 PPI. It will be really interesting to compare them all... including the displays on Windows Tablets from other manufacturers, who might provide better displays than the Microsoft Surface...

Windows Tablet Shoot-Outs: Sharpness is only one aspect of display image quality. I will be doing an in-depth Display Shoot-Out between the Microsoft Surface RT and the new iPad 3 when the Surface RT ships, and I will be repeating this sharpness test. When other Windows Tablets ship I will include the best of them in future Mobile Display Shoot-Outs. So stay tuned...

wonder if he ran the cleartype tuner, which makes a bit of a difference and probably 99% of windows users never bother doing. the surface will almost certainly have it optimized for the specific display they're using

 

[plagiarize]

that displaymate guy did a short bit about the sharpness claims:
http://www.displaymate.com/news.html#11


wonder if he ran the cleartype tuner, which makes a bit of a difference and probably 99% of windows users never bother doing. the surface will almost certainly have it optimized for the specific display they're using

thanks for bringing up the clear type tuner. i'd never even heard of it. text now looks better on my monitor!

 

[strata8]

that displaymate guy did a short bit about the sharpness claims:
http://www.displaymate.com/news.html#11


wonder if he ran the cleartype tuner, which makes a bit of a difference and probably 99% of windows users never bother doing. the surface will almost certainly have it optimized for the specific display they're using

Metro uses a different version of ClearType without subpixel rendering, so the ClearType tuner wouldn't do anything to improve the clarity there.

 

[Jeels]

get a windows 8 tablet with an atom processor.

Why that versus the pro?

 

[Windu]

Why that versus the pro?

the atom tablets will be just as light as an ipad.

 

[Monumental]

Why that versus the pro?

You will probably be able to find a Windows 8 tablet with an atom processor for around $600, compared to the Pro which will probably cost $300/$400 more.

They are both the full version of Windows 8, which means you can run all desktop apps, but the atom processor will obviously be for much lighter use. Point is if you don't intend to do CPU intensive things with your tablet in the desktop mode, then an atom tablet will be the perfect compromise of price and functionality.

 

[Windu]

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2012662/many-dell-hp-printers-wont-work-with-windows-rt.html

welp, this will go well.....

 

[Nero3000]

Apparently some Surface pre-orders are being pushed back a week. Has this happened to anyone?

My HDMI adapter got pushed back but the tablet itself is still on course.

 

[HollovVpo1nt]

Question, I have a 2-year'ish old Acer Aspire One Netbook, which packs an Intel Atom chip. The thing so slow that I shrug whenever the term 'Atom' is dropped in this thread. I've seen a hands-on in which the previewer said that the RT experience was more fluid than the Atom experience (might have been from unfinished code).

So, how far has Atom come? Are they decent chips now? Why not use their new low power Core iX chips?

 

[strata8]

Question, I have a 2-year'ish old Acer Aspire One Netbook, which packs an Intel Atom chip. The thing so slow that I shrug whenever the term 'Atom' is dropped in this thread. I've seen a hands-on in which the previewer said that the RT experience was more fluid than the Atom experience (might have been from unfinished code).

So, how far has Atom come? Are they decent chips now? Why not use their new low power Core iX chips?

Atom chipsets generally have a TDP of between 3.5-6W (it might even be lower), which means the tablet can be cooled passively. AFAIK all of the iX chips require active cooling as the TDP is much higher (in the range of 10-17W)

I'm just taking a shot in the dark but I'd say the Atom chips perform at (roughly) the same level as a Tegra 3.

 

[tirant]

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2012662/many-dell-hp-printers-wont-work-with-windows-rt.html

welp, this will go well.....

Windows RT still supports thousands of printers more than Android/iOS.

 

[Windu]

Windows RT still supports thousands of printers more than Android/iOS.

yep but it has windows in its name. People will expect more (especially with it having a desktop)

 

[HollovVpo1nt]

Atom chipsets generally have a TDP of between 3.5-6W (it might even be lower), which means the tablet can be cooled passively. AFAIK all of the iX chips require active cooling as the TDP is much higher (in the range of 10-17W)

I'm just taking a shot in the dark but I'd say the Atom chips perform at (roughly) the same level as a Tegra 3.

Can't they underclock the iX chips? The TDP of the chips if the max tdp afaik.

 

[plagiarize]

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2012662/many-dell-hp-printers-wont-work-with-windows-rt.html

welp, this will go well.....

it's a new OS. is this surprising? vendors refuse to make drivers for their old printers because they want to sell new ones and microsoft get blamed. we aren't talking about something that doesn't regularly happen when we get a major OS change. 98/SE/ME to XP, XP to Vista/7. 32 bit to 64 bit.

that most of the laserprinters on that HP list work with RT is pretty impressive, support for advanced features or not.

 

[clav]

Wonder if my Brother printer will work.

 

[Gareth Bale]

Apparently some Surface pre-orders are being pushed back a week. Has this happened to anyone?

My HDMI adapter got pushed back but the tablet itself is still on course.

Happened to me. Email says the 2nd now.

 

[mhayze]

Apparently some Surface pre-orders are being pushed back a week. Has this happened to anyone?

My HDMI adapter got pushed back but the tablet itself is still on course.

Pre-orders for Surface sold out, UK pre-orders delayed.

 

[mhayze]

Can't they underclock the iX chips? The TDP of the chips if the max tdp afaik.

It's an issue of total platform power usage (chipsets, IO controllers, display hardware drivers, LCD panels, etc.).

In a few months, Intel will release the reference ULV platform for Haswell (the next gen i3/i5/i7 platform) that uses significantly less total platform of the current i3/i5/i7 ULV plaftorm (Ivy Bridge) and 1/50th the power of Ivy Bridge in closed-lid-state.

Until then, no, Ivy Bridge cannot be underclocked further to the point where it uses as little power as Atom.

ULV Ivy Bridge is already underclocked a lot compared to desktop and even "regular" mobile i5s. Intel has not announced a new floor for power usage, but speculation is that it will dip well into the single digits of Watts used. Anandtech has a very in-depth article on Haswell. Intel demoed a Haswell platform running the Unigine demo at 8W. Note that Haswell has a much improved GPU over Ivy Bridge as well.

 

[Frustrated_me]

Got an email last night, my preorder is pushed back a week Nov 2.

 

[maeh2k]

Got an email last night, my preorder is pushed back a week Nov 2.

Looks like some (possibly all) of those mails were incorrect:

@surface: An incorrect email was sent to several customers who preordered #Surface. Customers should expect their devices by the original date given.

 

[Gareth Bale]

Yeah, just got an email saying the previous email (Nov 2nd) was incorrect and that the expected shipping date hasn't changed.

 

[strata8]

Is this going to be the official thread for the Surface?

 

[hwalker84]

Amazon Deal of the day is MicroSD cards

http://www.amazon.com/gp/goldbox/ref=cs_top_nav_gb27

32GB $22.99 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007XZM6VG/?tag=neogaf0e-20

64GB $43.49 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007WTAJTO/?tag=neogaf0e-20

 

[pswii60]

Argh.... Surface (RT) or iPad!?

Really struggling to decide but want to get a tablet before I go to Abu Dhabi on business in a couple of weeks.

Surface looks so sexy and I much prefer the interactive UI in comparison to iPad's wall of icons. Also a standard USB port and SD Card expansion. But then iPad is a proven entity, has tons of apps and support and a higher-resolution screen.

I know iPad is the safer bet but the Surface seems like it might be a lot more flexible in the long-term.

Decisions decisions! Anyone like to share their thoughts?