Miyamoto's Failure - Bosman at Home

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nynt9

Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onScwrHP2g0

In the latest episode of his series, Kyle Bosman talks about the process of Star Fox Zero/Guard. How it was unveiled through the years, how Miyamoto seemed to try to create something to justify the gamepad, how conflicting his goals and direction for the end product are (and how archaic a female character is, and how the story fails to deliver), and finally, Miyamoto's influence in general, along with how that influence is inconsistent (Sticker Star).

Or, like this poster said:
Titanoboa said:
Right right, but that still failed you know? Miyamoto said in 2014 that his job was to make people see the value of the GamePad. His solutions were Star Fox, Guard, and Giant Robo. He delayed StarFox twice to get things just right and didn't accomplish what he set out to do. Miyamoto failed his mission.

That's the point of the episode ��
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Great episode that really stuck with me because I really wanted to enjoy the game but it felt like a confused, clunky product. In the Bosman thread people said this should get its own thread, and I agree. It also kind of goes with my frustration towards Nintendo and how lately they don't seem to be delivering on point, with a few exceptions.
 
The Bonus Bits at the end are quickly becoming the best parts of the episode. I think Kyle did a great job of being respectful to Miyamoto while also pointing to all of the reasons he failed. I will say that while I have no interest in SF0, I did love Pikmin 3. Even if it took away all the good story elements from 2 and had a girl wearing the color of girls in a skirt.

BY2K said:
I'm gonna say the same thing I said in the OT, the bonus bit feels a bit mean.
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Why? Too on-the-nose?
 
I can't help but feel like Star Fox Zero was pushed out onto market because Nintendo needed another Wii U game to sell. It should have stayed in the oven until it was ready to go.
 
Saw the video earlier. Completely agree about this being Miyamoto's Failure. The only game to really get me to accept the gamepad as a useful thing to use was Mario Maker. Also any jabs at Miyamoto's meddling in games like Paper Mario is welcome.

The part at the end of the video was a little weird though.
 
I thought Star Fox Zero was pretty fantastic. Had this loaded up on YouTube ready to watch so I might as well do that.
I'd agree with Sticker Star since that game is just messed up in so many ways that it makes me upset, but Star Fox ended up well.
 
NOLA_Gaffer said:
I can't help but feel like Star Fox Zero was pushed out onto market because Nintendo needed another Wii U game to sell. It should have stayed in the oven until it was ready to go.
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It does feel a bit lacking in terms of extra content, which Nintendo games usually deliver.

Also control options. They knew for years that the controls were divisive, they could have done something to alleviate that.
 
Titanoboa said:
The Bonus Bits at the end are quickly becoming the best parts of the episode. I think Kyle did a great job of being respectful to Miyamoto while also pointing to all of the reasons he failed.


Why? Too on-the-nose?
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I get the point he was making, and he's right, but the way he put it in the bonus bit with the "I repeat what you said in a silly voice to mock you" tone was a bit harsh, I think.
 
Titanoboa said:
The Bonus Bits at the end are quickly becoming the best parts of the episode. I think Kyle did a great job of being respectful to Miyamoto while also pointing to all of the reasons he failed. I will say that while I have no interest in SF0, I did love Pikmin 3. Even if it took away all the good story elements from 2 and had a girl wearing the color of girls in a skirt.


Why? Too on-the-nose?
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This.
 
Nintendo is so behind the times when it comes to storytelling, that when they try to catch up we get something like... Star Fox Zero's cutscenes. And it's painful.
 
BY2K said:
I get the point he was making, and he's right, but the way he put it in the bonus bit with the "I repeat what you said in a silly voice to mock you" tone was a bit harsh, I think.
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I think it's pretty fair to mock the mock the guy in this case. It's also a silly voice, he didn't call the guy a mother fucker.
 
I strongly, immensely dislike "George Lucas" branding in creator-fan relationships (including for George Lucas), but I get his point.

The "Shut up Isabelle. Gameplay comes first." line was certified gold.
 
James Scott said:
I thought Star Fox Zero was pretty fantastic. Had this loaded up on YouTube ready to watch so I might as well do that.
I'd agree with Sticker Star since that game is just messed up in so many ways that it makes me upset, but Star Fox ended up well.
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To be fair to Miyamoto, the design choices that IntSys employed for everything outside of the story/characters was actually rather flawed.

Wask said:
Nintendo is so behind the times when it comes to storytelling, that when they try to catch up we get something like... Star Fox Zero's cutscenes. And it's painful.
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I don't know if that's completely true. Zelda seems to do pretty well in terms of story telling and cutscenes.

Then again... it doesn't have voice acting and tends to not have many characters actively engaged in doing... well, anything.
 
udivision said:
To be fair to Miyamoto, the design choices that IntSys employed for everything outside of the story/characters was actually rather flawed.
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Yeah, not sure what people like blaming him for on that, I know the story (which was simple/inoffensive) but the game design is broken.
 
James Scott said:
Yeah, not sure what people like blaming him for on that, I know the story (which was simple/inoffensive) but the game design is broken.
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Miyamoto made suggestion and then they also looked at polls they put out and they saw most people liked a paper Mario that doesn't have much h story, so they were literally just going off of fan feedback
 
Interesting title

Will watch asap

Edit:
ifrfr2W.png
 
I don't think Miyamoto even had that much to do with Sticker Star. It seems like his involvement was played up by Nintendo for marketing purposes, and IntSys were responsible for most of the games shortcomings.
 
foxuzamaki said:
Miyamoto made suggestion and then they also looked at polls they put out and they saw most people liked a paper Mario that doesn't have much h story, so they were literally just going off of fan feedback
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That's always a good idea. Good thing Miyamoto was there to tell them to listen to Internet polls.
 
NOLA_Gaffer said:
I can't help but feel like Star Fox Zero was pushed out onto market because Nintendo needed another Wii U game to sell. It should have stayed in the oven until it was ready to go.
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Wouldn't had helped.

The game needed to break from it's formula while bringing a lot of fresh new ideas onto the table. They didn't bring any new ideas just took old ones and tried to make them work. Alongside just trying to repeat the success of the game by looking at Star Fox 64.

It's okay to take inspiration from something that was already successful, but refrain from copying it.

Oh and options is always a nice thing. >.>
 
Oddish1 said:
I don't think Miyamoto even had that much to do with Sticker Star. It seems like his involvement was played up by Nintendo for marketing purposes, and IntSys were responsible for most of the games shortcomings.
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From what we've been told, his involvement lead to some rather obvious changes for the worse, and I don't think that was just PR speak. But yeah, IntSys deserves a majority of the blame.
 
Titanoboa said:
That's always a good idea. Good thing Miyamoto was there to tell them to listen to Internet polls.
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It was from club nintendo and fan feedback. Most players of Super Paper Mario didn't care about the story but wanted more focus on the gameplay and paper elements according to the feedback they got.
 
I wonder if the comments about the story/perfecting the tone of the cutscenes had to do with Star Fox: the battle begins. Miyamoto had a personal involvement in that and with the Pikmin shorts and those were both fantastic in the characterization of the characters and charm.
Star Fox Zero might be missing a few cut scenes, I think. The short made it seem like there was supposed to be a bigger deal between Andross and General Pepper. There was apparently a secret he told Peppy and Andross tells Fox in the final stage that Pepper isn't as good as he says or something along those lines.
As for the whole "proving the value of the gamepad" that's likely why it was greenlight. They wanted to show why the system was worth $300, but It was pretty obvious that it was too late to do that. Mario Maker and Splatoon did that better, but the Wii U never recovered and the NX was already in development.
 
Too focused on the recent events in my opinion, you can trace Miyamoto's bad/useless influence further back in time and make a more general discussion about that.
 
Illucio said:
Oh and options is always a nice thing. >.>
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This is something I'm super conflicted on. I'm often in "give dark souls an easy mode" threads vehemently arguing against the idea. However here I would argue that the designer is actually wrong and SFZ needs more control options. I can't exactly articulate why, but it seems like a fundamental difference. Partly because the souls games have a tried and true formula at this point and SFZ's controls were unproven, and partly because souls games feel very deliberately tuned whereas SFZ's controls feel very haphazard and made for the sake of justifying the gamepad. I think authorial intent is very important but recognizing that there are different tiers of auteurs is important too. Miyamoto is an idea guy, not an implementation guy, and it kinds shows.

Idk, I'm rambling because I still haven't found my position in this issue yet, but I think SFZ definitely needed more options.
 
OK I'm ten minutes in and there's less info or insight than a neogaf shitpost. Bail now or is it worth it to keep going?
 
nynt9 said:
It does feel a bit lacking in terms of extra content, which Nintendo games usually deliver.

Also control options. They knew for years that the controls were divisive, they could have done something to alleviate that.
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These are the real problems with the game. With as many outside factors stacked against the game, they should've accounted for these early on, especially the control options. The core game is good, as is most of the content, but it's essentially locked behind the default control scheme for some people. whether it's justified to write off the game for the controls alone doesn't matter — people were going to do that if there were no options accommodating them, and it's hurting the game's (and the series') potential.

Wask said:
Nintendo is so behind the times when it comes to storytelling, that when they try to catch up we get something like... Star Fox Zero's cutscenes. And it's painful.
Click to expand...

No remotely a problem in this game/series. Zero nailed the tone/dialogue in this game. It's the lack of content, lack of multi, and no control options that show how behind the times they are.
 
leroidys said:
OK I'm ten minutes in and there's less info or insight than a neogaf shitpost. Bail now or is it worth it to keep going?
Click to expand...
If you don't like it when people use interviews with a games director to try to learn what the game director was thinking, you should probably stop.
 
LeleSocho said:
Too focused on the recent events in my opinion, you can trace Miyamoto's bad/useless influence further back in time and make a more general discussion about that.
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We'll find out he's been basing everything hes done for the past few years on consumer surveys
 
leroidys said:
OK I'm ten minutes in and there's less info or insight than a neogaf shitpost. Bail now or is it worth it to keep going?
Click to expand...

It's probably going to take NeoGAF longer to reach a consensus on whether this video is worth your time, depending on what you enjoy, than it will to watch the rest of it.
 
Titanoboa said:
If you don't like it when people use interviews with a games director to try to learn what the game director was thinking, you should probably stop.
Click to expand...

Well so far it's

"THEY SAID THIS THING. AND IT TURNED OUT DIFFERENT. ARE YOU KIDDDING MEEEE?"

I'm fine with bashing the game for what's there. I'm even fine with bashing the game for what's not there if they can provide something interesting in the way of a post-mortem. This has done neither so far, so I'm wondering if he ever gets there. My question wasn't purely rhetorical.

There's no objectivity at all. He takes it for granted that everyone hated the game and that the controls have no value. He doesn't even discuss these points. I think it's pretty ironic that the video is titled "Miyamoto's Failure". You're not really delivering on the critical front here either Bosman.

EDIT: OK at 13:00 he's going hard on the fact the the characterization of the femme fatale character is poor in a Platinum Game x Starfox. OK. I'm out.
 
leroidys said:
Well so far it's

"THEY SAID THIS THING. AND IT TURNED OUT DIFFERENT. ARE YOU KIDDDING MEEEE?"

I'm fine with bashing the game for what's there. I'm even fine with bashing the game for what's not there if they can provide something interesting in the way of a post-mortem. This has done neither so far, so I'm wondering if he ever gets there. My question wasn't purely rhetorical.

There's no objectivity at all. He takes it for granted that everyone hated the game and that the controls have no value. He doesn't even discuss these points. I think it's pretty ironic that the video is titled "Miyamoto's Failure". You're not really delivering on the critical front here either Bosman.
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I think he took the metacritic score and the sales of both the Wii U and the game itself as evidence that Miyamoto failed his mission to convince the general public that the GamePad was worth using. If that's not failure, I don't know what success is.
 
Spring-Loaded said:
No remotely a problem in this game/series. Zero nailed the tone/dialogue in this game. It's the lack of content, lack of multi, and no control options that show how behind the times they are.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you should check out the video for the specific example he provides.
 
udivision said:
I don't know if that's completely true. Zelda seems to do pretty well in terms of story telling and cutscenes.

Then again... it doesn't have voice acting and tends to not have many characters actively engaged in doing... well, anything.
Click to expand...

Even Zelda's storytelling is incredibly simplistic. Not bad, but rarely anything special. Presentation aside, the plots and characters are paper thin with little nuance. Majora's Mask and Wind Waker are kinda exceptions.
 
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