Shikamaru Ninja
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Nintendo programmed the control, physics and transforming mechanics, and essentially also handed off some Star Fox 64 assets. PG, Friends, and Nintendo / Miyamoto did some adhoc co-development from that prototype.
Miyamoto's Failure - Bosman at Home
- Thread starter nynt9
- Start date
Nintendo programmed the control, physics and transforming mechanics, and essentially also handed off some Star Fox 64 assets. PG, Friends, and Nintendo / Miyamoto did some adhoc co-development from that prototype.
doctorblurg
Banned
That bonus bit was straight fire. Bosman has been waiting to unleash these Miyamoto feelings for a long time now
I think the conclusion is mostly valid, but it's certainly not limited to Starfox. It's pretty clear that they just started cancelling games that needed more time and shitting out what they could as of last November, as by that time it was abundantly clear that the Wii U was a failure.
I was hoping that he would actually talk about why Nintendo was unable to sell the gamepad (via marketing or actual gameplay ideas) rather than spend 20 minutes lambasting a game for it's poor characterization of space furries.
It's unfortunate because they have had moments over the years where this kind of thing was on point, but I'm assuming there's an overall direction from Miyamoto to limit these kind of non core game elements.
brickarts295
Member
SUCCESS: the accomplishment of an aim or purpose.
They satisfied some fans and prove to some that the gamepad controls works. That sounds like success to me XD.
Nah but seriously this is game is average at best.
Already Torn
Banned
Right right, but that still failed you know? Miyamoto said in 2014 that his job was to make people see the value of the GamePad. His solutions were Star Fox, Guard, and Giant Robo. He delayed StarFox twice to get things just right and didn't accomplish what he set out to do. Miyamoto failed his mission.
That's the point of the episode 😁
Pikmin 2 and the Piklopedia is a great example of this as well. But the Mario RPGs had good traditional stories.
Nintendo is best when story exists in the background. Ocarina, Majora, Metroid Prime - examples of great stories that were effective simply by walking through those worlds. there were cutscenes, but they weren't even really needed.
Damn, well that explains it.Well, he is a poster on gaf.
I found the story in Xenoblade chroicles and XBX pretty damn good, so I don't think they are all behind.
Star Fox was only delayed once.
And I don't think it matters how good Star Fox or Guard is, there was no way that was going to save the WiiU, placing that entirely on Miyamoto feels a little unfair.
If you want an example of Nintendo storytelling that's deplorable, I have 4 words for you
Yoshio Sakamoto
Other M
I mean, XC is a pretty standard JRPG story for the most part even though it is charmingly told, and XCX is... I'm not sure wtf they tried to do with that game but I wouldn't call its story good.
Either way, they're good as in "not embarrasingly bad by video game standards" and not "transcends or is in the upper echelon of the medium" levels.
It's less "saving" the WiiU and more "showing we were right about the gamepad", neither of which was really accomplished.
Already Torn
Banned
It was twice I believe. It was originally summer 2015, then fall 2015. And his mission was to prove the value of the GamePad, not to save the Wii U.
Although I think there's good reason to believe that the Wii U has a lot to do with Miyamoto's influence in the first place, so it probably should be his job to save it.
I think some of the blame can be given to Miyamoto in that he choose to spend his time tinkering around on his little hobby projects instead of doing something that would actually be helpful to his company.
Star Fox Zero might not have been worth the compromise, but I still feel like it's a rather good, if not a bit too unappreciated as a game.
Paper Mario is the funny one to me. People latch on too much on Miyamoto's "is a story necessary" suggestion while completely ignoring that it was IntSys who decided to sterilize the hubs (having ONLY Toads despite a lot of levels having half decent writing/NPCs) and providing a complete misfire of a game that was unable to provide anything compelling. The only thing Miyamoto did was compound on a problem that the developers had created for themselves in the first place even though it didn't even have to be a problem if the team knew how to capitalize on the suggestion. Hell I'm pretty sure I recently read a quote somewhere which was from after Super Paper Mario's release that suggested the developers wanted to challenge the genre instead of going back to a traditional formula with Paper Mario. Miyamoto didn't ruin Paper Mario; it's own studio designers and directors did.
Paper Mario is the funny one to me. People latch on too much on Miyamoto's "is a story necessary" suggestion while completely ignoring that it was IntSys who decided to sterilize the hubs (having ONLY Toads despite a lot of levels having half decent writing/NPCs) and providing a complete misfire of a game that was unable to provide anything compelling. The only thing Miyamoto did was compound on a problem that the developers had created for themselves in the first place even though it didn't even have to be a problem if the team knew how to capitalize on the suggestion. Hell I'm pretty sure I recently read a quote somewhere which was from after Super Paper Mario's release that suggested the developers wanted to challenge the genre instead of going back to a traditional formula with Paper Mario. Miyamoto didn't ruin Paper Mario; it's own studio designers and directors did.
James Scott
Banned
No, it was officially announced e3 2015 for Fall 2015 and then pushed back until April 2016.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
He put all the pieces together. I thought Fable Legends was bad... this is the story of the year.
It shouldn't have been such a fresh take, but it was.
It shouldn't have been such a fresh take, but it was.
Already Torn
Banned
Weirdly Pikmin 3 had a ton of different control options even though it's the best use of the GamePad outside of Super Mario Maker.
Ah, I figured it out. I think in my head I considered an April release to be a delay from Q1.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
This is why Nintendo needs to make a regular controller. They are wasting resources and time trying to justify their wacky controller ideas.
Nah, Monolith is pretty much it's own thing. It's owned by Nintendo, but it's not quite internal.
It wasn't meant to be a 1:1 comparison. Making a new Pikmin sequel is a lot different than making a new Star Wars sequel.
Anyhow the point of the video was about how they needed "proof" that the gamepad was a great idea - and since Pikmin 3 came with multiple control methods, it kind of proved the opposite.
It's moderately interesting to me that all discussion in this thread, based on my observation, focused on Zero whereas Guard is substantially better at gamepad integration anyway.
It was a good concept, well-executed, well-received, and had Miyamoto plastered over it from the beginning.
It was a good concept, well-executed, well-received, and had Miyamoto plastered over it from the beginning.
Randomizer
Member
Just played through Star Fox Zero yesterday and it was great. Although there are not enough levels and in particular not enough on rails levels. The control issue is blown way out of proportion though as usual. Exact same thing happened to Skyward Sword which was a fantastic game.
But I do agree with some points. From the whole reveal and building the game from a publicly shown prototype then to not even have enough EAD staff to develop it fully inhouse themselves. This all shows how mishandled the game was. Thankfully it turned out good but it could have been much better. Also agree that Miyamoto's input into Paper Mario is awful. But he's still the best game developer of all time and a living legend. With the amount of classic games he had involvement with that isn't changing anytime soon.
But I do agree with some points. From the whole reveal and building the game from a publicly shown prototype then to not even have enough EAD staff to develop it fully inhouse themselves. This all shows how mishandled the game was. Thankfully it turned out good but it could have been much better. Also agree that Miyamoto's input into Paper Mario is awful. But he's still the best game developer of all time and a living legend. With the amount of classic games he had involvement with that isn't changing anytime soon.
Yeah, the George Lucas comparison was the only part of the video I disagreed with.
Miyamoto still has it in him to make great games, he's just not as consistent as before. Lucas, however, is pretty consistent in his failures.
SolidSnakex
Member
I think for the most part stories in Nintendo's games are built the same way stories were back in the early arcade and NES days, which means it's there just to give some reason to whatever you're doing. They weren't meant to tell some grand story or really even keep you engaged. It's there to say "Hey, you're fighting these guys and here's why. Now go do it." But it doesn't tend to go any deeper than that. And i'm fine with that. Not everything needs to have a lot of dialog and cutscenes.
James Scott
Banned
Finished watching the episode. I knew Kyle was against Miyamoto for awhile now, so the content was to be expected. Did he fail to give value to the gamepad? Sure. I don't think he's a George Lucas, though. Star Fox Zero is great, I stand by that. The controls failed in the aspect that it didn't bring in new people because it was divisive, but I felt that they worked really well. As for the other aspects of the game it turned out pretty well after likely being given a small budget and (originally) a 1.5 year development cycle.
I'd also stress that he did have a personal involvement in both the Battle Begins and the Pikmin shorts which are both very well made.
Pikmin 3 having great gamepad usage as mentioned by another poster.
The Gamepad/Wii U failed, that's also something I think we can agree with. But I'd struggle to call the gamepad a bad controller or that it didn't have value, but the added cost (As miyamoto mentioned, adds nearly $100 to the console cost) is really hard to justify so that's why they tried making something to push it.
I'd also stress that he did have a personal involvement in both the Battle Begins and the Pikmin shorts which are both very well made.
Pikmin 3 having great gamepad usage as mentioned by another poster.
The Gamepad/Wii U failed, that's also something I think we can agree with. But I'd struggle to call the gamepad a bad controller or that it didn't have value, but the added cost (As miyamoto mentioned, adds nearly $100 to the console cost) is really hard to justify so that's why they tried making something to push it.
That's entirely a perception issue. Until recently Miyamoto's main jobs were supervising, software management, and greenlighting EPD games, such as Splatoon and Mario Maker. He wasn't involved in those games developments as he was Star Fox, but his hobby projects are very much to the side to his main duties. It's why Star Fox has two other directors besides him.
Jesus this is vicious.
I do think he makes a very good point about characters and story though; characters have to serve a purpose, expanding the setting or the other characters. Hell, even just making the audience laugh is a good purpose. Having a character exist without a purpose is noisy fanservice and nothing more.
The problem he has is that there is a lot of story stuff that doesn't really add anything.
If anything, he seems like he would have preferred a more minimalist story.
I do think he makes a very good point about characters and story though; characters have to serve a purpose, expanding the setting or the other characters. Hell, even just making the audience laugh is a good purpose. Having a character exist without a purpose is noisy fanservice and nothing more.
The problem Bosman's expressing isn't that the story's minimalist.
The problem he has is that there is a lot of story stuff that doesn't really add anything.
If anything, he seems like he would have preferred a more minimalist story.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
Right, but Miyamoto himself explained that the delay was in part to make the cut scenes better.
deriks
4-Time GIF/Meme God
I'm all over Kyle, but I felt this way too. I mean, he said something like it in this episode of the Final Bosman (see at 16m47), and it was ok, but this time was kinda harsh.
Still loved the video thou
Already Torn
Banned
I disagree. Personally I'm a fan of gameplay.
Huh?
SolidSnakex
Member
But what cutscenes? I completed the game recently and I really can't remember many cutscenes even being in the game.
ShroudOfFate
Member
Nintendo owns a majority of the shares for Monolith so they're a Nintendo developer, but they aren't like EAD. They're not an internal studio.
Refreshment.01
Member
Among many other things like tweaking AI and enemy postioning in levels and overall polish. Why you don't mention that?
James Scott
Banned
There's no 3 game deal that we know of. Platinum is a company for hire and they were chosen after the Bayonetta 2 SF easter egg. It's also not a ton of work based on the shared workload between Nintendo and PG (I think PG mostly handled art assets?) and the game was made in under 2 years.
I don't think that should matter. By that logic Retro doesn't qualify either. And Monolith was bought because they make story driven games that Nintendo doesn't usually make.
Uh, where did I say "a game needs a story" there? Games are perfectly fine without stories just as they're fine with stories.
I just said if you are telling a story, stuff has to have a point. Otherwise, it's just audio-visual noise. And that seems to be what Bosman doesn't like about Star Fox Zero's story.
Foldedpencil
Banned
I seem to remember his old show being funny. This show is fine, but I miss the humor...
Already Torn
Banned
As long as there's gameplay, I don't really care how good the story is personally.
Like, it's not part of the "good old Nintendo". If Monolith is hiring, they will say "Monolith is hiring", not "Nintendo is hiring", unlike EAD.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
Basically, Miyamoto was bullshitting.
Bosman addresses that, and it's not dissimilar to the cutscene remark.
Not sure how well GAF translates over video. If he has damaged the honor of Miyamoto-san, he may have just shot himself in the foot.