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[M0nochromatic]

"Shut up Isabelle, gameplay comes first."

That slayed me. Great jokes, but he knows whats up. Nintendo, besides exceptions like Splatoon, has killed a lot of their own franchises by sheer negligence. I feel like some indies out there with just a hint of passion could come along and make bank by making a genuine Star Fox, F-Zero, or Metroid inspired game. Some genres are easier then others, sure, but I hope something rises from the ashes of the dead.

 

[Übermatik]

I seem to remember his old show being funny. This show is fine, but I miss the humor...

There's humour there... perhaps it's a little more subtle, but I had a laugh.

 

[Already Torn]

Huh?

Miyamoto doesn't creep over the shoulder of Monolith employees and tell them to get rid of the bozo bodies on female characters.

 

[Refreshment.01]

ALso failed at what exactly?

The reason why it uses most of 64 plot, characters and setting as a spring board was due to the limited time and resources for the project. The game main goal was to create an StarFox that used the features that distinguish the Wii U interface.

How can anyone honestly view Zero and Pikmin 3 as failures? These are the Miyamoto's recent projects which demanded a great deal of his attention.

 

[Toxi]

As long as there's gameplay, I don't really care how good the story is personally.

Well then I'm not sure why you disagree with me expressing what I think makes a good or bad story.

 

[TheJoRu]

The spite for Miyamoto overall is becoming unbearable. It's actually a bit uncomfortable, it seems so personal and targeted. The bonus bit especially has this really mocking tone that's quite childish and, again, targeted specifically at this one guy. Where I'm coming from is that we don't know how things work in their software development, especially not on a day-to-day basis. To what extent can Miyamoto work on Star Fox, considering he manages and supervises a bunch of other teams? Did he have a meeting explaining his grand ideas for Star Fox-controls one day and spent extended time making sure he got what he wanted, or did he come by to say "hey, Iwata wants to utilize the Gamepad more. Make some prototypes before this date and then show me, because we have to decide on a project by then. Alright, see ya!"? Who knows.

Maybe he did do a lot of work on it, but in the end him doing all those interviews and making all those comments...it's just PR. He's a representative of the company and of this game, because he's god damn Shigeru Miyamoto, and him talking about the game puts a bigger spotlight on it than anybody else working on it could, including Hashimoto. He might've spent more time doing PR for the game than actually developing it, for all we know. And what we know, as it's always been, is very limited. We know he's credited as "supervising director", and there are two main directors of the game. Who had the most influence on Star Fox Zero? Who knows.

When it comes to Paper Mario, I think it's a real shame that Miyamoto gave that feedback regarding story and characters. I love that aspect of the series. If he hadn't we might've gotten a better game. But I also ask myself this: why the hell can't Intelligent System make a good game anyway? Are they not competent enough to handle restrictions, and having to go out of their comfort zone and challenge themselves to do something appealing without sticking (heh) to the same type of experience once again? Miyamoto gave the guidelines, but ultimately Intelligent Systems just made a bad game, and they could've done better too.

 

[Already Torn]

ALso failed at what exactly?

The reason why it uses most of 64 plot, characters and setting as a spring board was due to the limited time and resources for the project. The game main goal was to create an StarFox that used the features that distinguish the Wii U interface.

How can anyone honestly view Zero and Pikmin 3 as failures? These are the Miyamoto's recent projects which demanded a great deal of his attention.

The main goal, as stated by Iwata and Miyamoto, was to create software that proves the worth and value of the GamePad. It didn't work.

You can view Zero as a failure because of its critical and sales reception.

It feels weird writing spark notes for a short YouTube video.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Just a reminder guys, Bosman's on the EasyAllies YT channel (no link, mobile, sorry). Also their patreon finally reached the milestone of retrospectives returning! So damn excited.

Edit: Also an OT guys and gals. Visit it

As for the episode, I think it's damn solid. Especially that stuff with the useless female character. Really jarring in 2016.

 

[nynt9]

ALso failed at what exactly?

The reason why it uses most of 64 plot, characters and setting as a spring board was due to the limited time and resources for the project. The game main goal was to create an StarFox that used the features that distinguish the Wii U interface.

How can anyone honestly view Zero and Pikmin 3 as failures? These are the Miyamoto's recent projects which demanded a great deal of his attention.

It's not like the entire video isn't dedicated to answering that...

 

[Eliseo]

Miyamoto doesn't creep over the shoulder of Monolith employees and tell them to get rid of the bozo bodies on female characters.

So just because He does not go to their office, their games are not Nintendo games? I don't get it.

 

[-Horizon-]

Miyamoto doesn't creep over the shoulder of Monolith employees and tell them to get rid of the bozo bodies on female characters.

yeah we have NOA for that

 

[Refreshment.01]

The main goal, as stated by Iwata and Miyamoto, was to create software that proves the worth and value of the GamePad. It didn't work.

You can view Zero as a failure because of its critical and sales reception.

There are games that proof the worth of the Gamepad as a concept, yet are not massive critical or sales hits.

 

[Eliseo]

yeah we have NOA for that

Don't remind me ;_;

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Like, it's not part of the "good old Nintendo". If Monolith is hiring, they will say "Monolith is hiring", not "Nintendo is hiring", unlike EAD.

and Retro be "hiring" too. Yall trippin today

 

[petethepanda]

Structure has always been the stealth best thing about his videos.

 

[andythinkpad]

He just shoot a video in his kitchen?

I wish somebody film a youtube review channel in Gahiggidy's dungeon.

 

[MODEYV3]

Great video, completely agree with what he's saying. People are saying its too personal, it wasn't just made by one guy. Well if it wasn't, Nintendo really shouldn't have marketed it that way, they literally posted Miyamoto's name everywhere for this game, like the guy made it himself in his garage.

 

[Famassu]

While Miyamoto is a genius, I've come to kind of hate him or maybe not him personally but rather his negative influence on some Nintendo games in recent years. So many things he has touched have turned for the worse because he has some archaic views on things (that work on some games, less on others) or doesn't understand the appeal of some franchises/genres. In some ways he just seems out of touch in regards to how games have evolved and how they could take advantage of that for some of their games.

This CAN lead to greatness since he doesn't adapt to some of the bad practices of today's gaming industry and thinks outside the box, but too many times now it has just lead to shitting the bed with quite a few games that could use some evolving (or would even be better just maintaining the status quo) rather than regressing to simpler shit or forcing gameplay gimmicks that can feel cumbersome.

 

[Oddish1]

Great video, completely agree with what he's saying. People are saying its too personal, it wasn't just made by one guy. Well if it wasn't, Nintendo really shouldn't have marketed it that way, they literally posted Miyamoto's name everywhere for this game, like the guy made it himself in his garage.

Are you saying we should pretend that Star Fox Zero was made by one guy because Nintendo played up his involvement in it?

 

[James Scott]

The main goal, as stated by Iwata and Miyamoto, was to create software that proves the worth and value of the GamePad. It didn't work.

You can view Zero as a failure because of its critical and sales reception.

It feels weird writing spark notes for a short YouTube video.

By the time it came out the NX was already announced, not much one can do to suade customers to a platform whose successor was thought to come out within a year of the game's launch. Though I guess it does fail to show the value of the gamepad though Mario Maker (pretty sure Miyamoto had some to do with these) and Splatoon had its fans and used the gamepad heavily.

 

[MODEYV3]

Are you saying we should pretend that Star Fox Zero was made by one guy because Nintendo played up his involvement in it?

No haha, I'm saying that people shouldn't be angry about Kyle just talking about Minamoto.

Edit: Obviously its great to talk about the flaws in his argument too. Otherwise whats the point of this thread.

 

[PK Gaming]

Wait, he's back with a new show? Cool.

Also damn, he went in

 

[nynt9]

What's quite bizarre is that generally recent Nintendo games are pretty patronizing in terms of trying to teach you how to play them with overly long tutorials and many "did you get that?" prompts, but then this game comes out with this control scheme that is utterly obtuse, with no options and a tutorial that doesn't really explain it well. It's like no one playtested the game and said "Hey guys we should introduce these controls a bit more gradually, normally we spend 15 minutes explaining basic mechanics and this is pretty complex"

 

[Refreshment.01]

Great video, completely agree with what he's saying. People are saying its too personal, it wasn't just made by one guy. Well if it wasn't, Nintendo really shouldn't have marketed it that way, they literally posted Miyamoto's name everywhere for this game, like the guy made it himself in his garage.

The overall control and interface, whcih was the main reason the game was made, is MIyamoto's vision. So im not sure that's a valid point.

He did the same for Pikmin 3 as he was heavily involved with that one. Lot's of press and tours with Miyamoto leading the game's expostion.

 

[James Scott]

What's quite bizarre is that generally recent Nintendo games are pretty patronizing in terms of trying to teach you how to play them with overly long tutorials and many "did you get that?" prompts, but then this game comes out with this control scheme that is utterly obtuse, with no options and a tutorial that doesn't really explain it well. It's like no one playtested the game and said "Hey guys we should introduce these controls a bit more gradually, normally we spend 15 minutes explaining basic mechanics and this is pretty complex"

There's a tutorial section in the beginning which I think is mandatory and there are a ton of other tutorials where you can learn to play the game in a closed setting.
I imagine a lot of people skipped this because "tutorials". They're actually really fun and I'd recommend playing the arwing/walker one a few times before starting the main game.

 

[DragonOfWisdom]

The "make the woman pink, the color of girls" got me good.

 

[Aters]

and Retro be "hiring" too. Yall trippin today

And luckily both studios don't have Miyamoto looking over and telling them how to make a game. They are more independent compared to Nintendo's internal departments and they have their own game making philosophy.

 

[nynt9]

There's a tutorial section in the beginning which I think is mandatory and there are a ton of other tutorials where you can learn to play the game in a closed setting.
I imagine a lot of people skipped this because "tutorials". They're actually really fun and I'd recommend playing the arwing/walker one a few times before starting the main game.

I did play through the tutorial but it goes over pretty fast and doesn't do the "let's make sure the player actually learned" thing, if you miss something you just miss it.

Whereas other Nintendo games hold your hand to hell and back to make sure you can select units and move them a square over or something

 

[Refreshment.01]

What's quite bizarre is that generally recent Nintendo games are pretty patronizing in terms of trying to teach you how to play them with overly long tutorials and many "did you get that?" prompts, but then this game comes out with this control scheme that is utterly obtuse, with no options and a tutorial that doesn't really explain it well. It's like no one playtested the game and said "Hey guys we should introduce these controls a bit more gradually, normally we spend 15 minutes explaining basic mechanics and this is pretty complex"

The first thing you experience with this game once you boot it for the first time, is a tutorial that explains you exactly how the game works from a mechanical and inmersion point of view.

i mean every single aspect from the basics it's covered in a very succint yet clear way. Then the tutorial keeps expanding with every new vehicle the player uses and it's given as an option.

Edit: It even keeps your better scores to incentivize repplayability.

 

[OniBarubary]

The guy spends 20 minutes fully outlining why he thinks it falls on Miyamoto, what words back it up and what specifically he sees as the failings as it relates to Star Fox. I have no idea how anyone could possible just blubber like a child and go "What a hater!"

I rarely listen to stuff like this but I found it incredibly well argued and humorous at times. Very interested in his stuff from here on out.

 

[James Scott]

I did play through the tutorial but it goes over pretty fast and doesn't do the "let's make sure the player actually learned" thing, if you miss something you just miss it.

Whereas other Nintendo games hold your hand to hell and back to make sure you can select units and move them a square over or something

You can replay them at any time if you feel like you're not good at it. It's a section on the main menu and the main game is a level select screen so it's not like you can't stop the campaign to practice.
You can do the walker one for like 200 rings/coins or more. It incentivizes trying over and over again until you're good at the game in that regard.
It's not handholdy since you're supposed to replay all of the levels multiple times and it gives you optional methods to get good if you want to.
Even the first level is fairly forgiving. You have a lot of health and plenty of continues.

 

[TheJoRu]

Great video, completely agree with what he's saying. People are saying its too personal, it wasn't just made by one guy. Well if it wasn't, Nintendo really shouldn't have marketed it that way, they literally posted Miyamoto's name everywhere for this game, like the guy made it himself in his garage.

This is incredibly exaggerated. It's been marketed as a Nintendo/Platinum-collaboration that Miyamoto was involved in making. You're making it sound like it says "A Shigeru Miyamoto Game" on the cover.

I'm saying that people shouldn't be angry about Kyle just talking about Minamoto.

Because of marketing? Marketing is one thing, the actual truth behind who did what in something as complex as game development is another. I'd expect someone as generally sharp as Kyle Bosman to try and follow the latter, and quickly realize that "oops, I barely know anything about the development of this game".

 

[monadi]

the "do do doo' bit needs to go.

 

[nynt9]

This is incredibly exaggerated. It's been marketed as a Nintendo/Platinum-collaboration that Miyamoto was involved in making. You're making it sound like it says "A Shigeru Miyamoto Game" on the cover.



Because of marketing? Marketing is one thing, the actual truth behind who did what in something as complex as game development is another. I'd expect someone as generally sharp as Kyle Bosman to try and follow the latter, and quickly realize that "oops, I barely know anything about the development of this game".

There's not much more we can do to talk about the game other than base our assumptions on everything that has been publicly said about the game by its creators. Any alternative theory would be speculative. Here at least it's based on facts to some extent.

 

[GamerJM]

the "do do doo' bit needs to go.

I disagree. In fact after the video was over I realized I liked it so much that I wanted to find a video of just that bit isolated so I could replay it over several times again. Bosman, if you're reading this, you should upload a "Bosman at home opening," video please!

 

[AcademicSaucer]

The part about Splatoon is wrong tho Miyamoto approved that, in fact in interviews they say Splatoon was a very different game before Miyamoto upended the tea table.

 

[Already Torn]

There are games that proof the worth of the Gamepad as a concept, yet are not massive critical or sales hits.

But by every metric Star Fox isn't one. It was supposed to justify it to general consumers, not just Refreshment.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

the bonus bit was hilarious.

 

[Syril]

I did play through the tutorial but it goes over pretty fast and doesn't do the "let's make sure the player actually learned" thing, if you miss something you just miss it.

Whereas other Nintendo games hold your hand to hell and back to make sure you can select units and move them a square over or something

It's not like you can't replay the tutorials whenever you want. The game even calls your attention to the tutorial menu by having it be the only option with a NEW! icon next to it.

 

[Splendor]

Bosman has struggled with Miyamoto for a while, and this video is a clear attempt to figure out emotions about a guy who helped make his childhood, but may also be a relic of the past.

This video is less a damnation of Star Fox as it is of Miyamoto's mission statement with the game: to make wii u games that sell the gamepad. Wii Sports sold a system to millions of players because it gimmick works with 99% of people instantly and because it was there at the start. Zero's controls take time and effort to figure out and the game came at the end of the life cycle. The mission was a failure, and is emblematic of alot of issues for Nintendo during the Wii U's lifespan as a whole and Miyamoto as a creator in 2016.

 

[TheJoRu]

There's not much more we can do to talk about the game other than base our assumptions on everything that has been publicly said about the game by its creators. Any alternative theory would be speculative. Here at least it's based on facts to some extent.

The facts are that Nintendo and Platinum Games developed Star Fox Zero. Shigeru Miyamoto was a supervising director on it, alongside two main directors from respective company.

 

[Robot Pants]

While Miyamoto is a genius, I've come to kind of hate him or maybe not him personally but rather his negative influence on some Nintendo games in recent years. So many things he has touched have turned for the worse because he has some archaic views on things (that work on some games, less on others) or doesn't understand the appeal of some franchises/genres. In some ways he just seems out of touch in regards to how games have evolved and how they could take advantage of that for some of their games.

This CAN lead to greatness since he doesn't adapt to some of the bad practices of today's gaming industry and thinks outside the box, but too many times now it has just lead to shitting the bed with quite a few games that could use some evolving (or would even be better just maintaining the status quo) rather than regressing to simpler shit or forcing gameplay gimmicks that can feel cumbersome.

This is how I feel and have felt for a while now. Although I've never considered him a genius.
He's just completely out of touch and needs to go away

 

[monadi]

I disagree. In fact after the video was over I realized I liked it so much that I wanted to find a video of just that bit isolated so I could replay it over several times again. Bosman, if you're reading this, you should upload a "Bosman at home opening," video please!

kyle, if you're reading this, DON'T do that

 

[nynt9]

It's not like you can't replay the tutorials whenever you want. The game even calls your attention to the tutorial menu by having it be the only option with a NEW! icon next to it.

Sure, you can replay the tutorial, but it's still a stark contrast in approach. Think about Dream Team. A game that is doing basically the same thing as about half a dozen games that came before it, yet the game keeps patronizing you for hours. This one, it just pats you on the back and assumes you'll get it. I'm not saying the game doesn't have a tutorial. Why are people getting so defensive over this? I'm saying that the game, despite being one of their more complex games, does significantly less to ensure you know how to play it than any other game by them.

 

[Oddish1]

The guy spends 20 minutes fully outlining why he thinks it falls on Miyamoto, what words back it up and what specifically he sees as the failings as it relates to Star Fox. I have no idea how anyone could possible just blubber like a child and go "What a hater!"

I rarely listen to stuff like this but I found it incredibly well argued and humorous at times. Very interested in his stuff from here on out.

It's not a bad video, but I dunno. Felt like he was rushing to his conclusion on condemning Miyamoto. Like, he brings up interviews about the games development, but he doesn't mention how the game was originally far more episodic and how that may have played a role in how the story is structured. Or how he latches onto the cutscenes being polished was reason for delay comment when we also know that the game's structure was changed to be more like a traditional StarFox game midway through development. He could've been more even handed.

He wants to paint Miyamoto as someone who "meddles" in games that harm more than help, but I just don't think Star Fox Zero is enough or any reason to think that.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

This is incredibly exaggerated. It's been marketed as a Nintendo/Platinum-collaboration that Miyamoto was involved in making. You're making it sound like it says "A Shigeru Miyamoto Game" on the cover.



Because of marketing? Marketing is one thing, the actual truth behind who did what in something as complex as game development is another. I'd expect someone as generally sharp as Kyle Bosman to try and follow the latter, and quickly realize that "oops, I barely know anything about the development of this game".

Star Fox: Zero started out as a tech demo alongside Project Guard and Project Giant Robot, his personal projects. The controls/gameplay were developed, then Platinum were brought in.

Miyamoto also spoke of the scope of the development in multiple interviews, talking about how he expected it to be done in a year (after the core mechanics were developed), and how there were no plans for multiplayer, originally no smart bombs in gameplay, etc. There was also a breakdown of who did what in the game released recently, iirc.

It's not as if the development is a complete secret.

Why are people getting so defensive over this?

Probably because they wanted this game to be received well. I know I'm sore about how this game was handled in some ways.

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

This is incredibly exaggerated. It's been marketed as a Nintendo/Platinum-collaboration that Miyamoto was involved in making. You're making it sound like it says "A Shigeru Miyamoto Game" on the cover.

It really is a Shigeru Miyamoto game, in the sense that he was in control of the programming team that was prototyping concepts for "six years". They internally came up with the motion controls and transforming concept internally, before deciding they would outsource the rest of the production. Miyamoto and chosen Nintendo staff guided their technology prototype, while PG was handed SF64 assets.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

This is something I'm super conflicted on. I'm often in "give dark souls an easy mode" threads vehemently arguing against the idea. However here I would argue that the designer is actually wrong and SFZ needs more control options. I can't exactly articulate why, but it seems like a fundamental difference. Partly because the souls games have a tried and true formula at this point and SFZ's controls were unproven, and partly because souls games feel very deliberately tuned whereas SFZ's controls feel very haphazard and made for the sake of justifying the gamepad. I think authorial intent is very important but recognizing that there are different tiers of auteurs is important too. Miyamoto is an idea guy, not an implementation guy, and it kinds shows.

Idk, I'm rambling because I still haven't found my position in this issue yet, but I think SFZ definitely needed more options.

An easy mode in Dark Souls is like giving a student a word processor that auto corrects spelling errors and most grammatical mistakes. Giving Star Fox Zero optional controls is like allowing a student to type on a normal keyboard versus trying to get them to use one of those keyboards with a different layout that is supposedly better but almost nobody uses.

The forced use of the GamePad takes away from the experience of Star Fox Zero. Even if you get used to it and even get good at it, it is still an awkward way to play a game and really adds very little benefit. While it doesn't matter at this point for the Wii U, I really hope Nintendo has learned that the benefit of having a screen on a controller isn't to make the player look at it instead of the TV other than rare situations (like ZombiU or Mario Maker).

 

[Combat Wombat]

And luckily both studios don't have Miyamoto looking over and telling them how to make a game. They are more independent compared to Nintendo's internal departments and they have their own game making philosophy.

Although it was 14 years ago, Miyamoto was heavily involved in Metroid Prime's development and the game turned out better because of his input.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...o_Studios_On_The_Journey_Of_Metroid_Prime.php

He's not credited in the article, but he also gave the devs the admittedly cryptic idea of the visor mechanic.

https://youtu.be/ner1ZV-sVyI?t=315

 

[Instro]

The part about Splatoon is wrong tho Miyamoto approved that, in fact in interviews they say Splatoon was a very different game before Miyamoto upended the tea table.

Quotes? The only thing I've heard on that is that he threatened them with making it a Mario game if they couldn't come up with a good character design.