The criticism about Peach/Daisy design versus the male characters is maybe unfair to place solely on him. It's pretty much an entertainment wide problem where it's ok for male characters to be unappealing where females are typically attractive, whether it be kid or adult content. Not saying it's right though.
Miyamoto's Failure - Bosman at Home
- Thread starter nynt9
- Start date
Lord of Ostia
Member
I don't think you can take Star Fox Zero as proof that Miyamoto has lost his touch. I honestly think the game is a symptom of the overall failure of the Wii U more than it is any indictment of Miyamoto's abilities as a developer. He provides great leadership and advice for Nintendo's dev teams, especially when there is a good new idea. It just seems like they made Star Fox because they'd been fooling around with the IP for so long, and needed to make the gamepad relevant, and so they contracted platinum to throw together this pseudo-remake of 64 with controls that are functional but don't really improve upon the Star Fox gameplay. No one involved in the project seemed all that invested in it, tbh. I mean, Guard seems like it got more fresh ideas and polish than Zero did.
yeah it's pretty weird. that said, i think the meticulously designed metal gear solid v is the best in the series versus more story-heavy stuff like the first two. the overworld (particularly afghanistan), is really exciting to play in, with a bunch of bases and great ways to infiltrate. its story is what it is, and the game gets slammed by fans. pretty unfortunate. i really respect the hell out of kojima and the designers who worked on the game though.
Movalpolos
Banned
Excellent episode.
I don't think it's unfair criticism to criticize something because it's emblematic of an industry wide problem.
But I do think it's unfair in that he's criticizing Mario characters, most of whom were created in the '80s with limited sprites, Brittney in Pikmin 3 who is a fine characters and he criticizes just for having a pink color, and assuming Miyamoto hates the Inkling designs because...?
Even as general producer, that series is his baby and I struggle to believe he wasn't very hands-on. If not, I guess I was wrong - the man's past it!
As for the Link Between Worlds thing, sounds like he saved the game while simultaneously introducing the worst thing about it - the reused overworld map from LttP. I guess he still gets credit though as the game was a good one.
Scrotum Phillips
Member
As always, love having a new Bosman video. This one kind of echoes my personal difficulties I have with present day Nintendo. I grew up starting with OG NES (owned every console since) and they'll always have a special place in my heart...but so much of what they are today i honestly kind of loathe. Amiibos, the mobile game push, archaic network infrastructure and their overwhelmingly conservative updates to their tentpole franchises have been personally disappointing without them at least largely offering much of anything new.
In my head, current day Nintendo is like a famous old music act that only tours these days and doesn't release any new music. You know they'll peddle out their greatest hits, but nothing they're doing these days will wow you like they did in the past. It bums me out that this is how current day me thinks of Nintnedo.
I'll end this on a blasphemous note, I just really wish all they did was create games. I really feel this has seriously hampered their creativity in the recent years as each new console it seems they have a bunch boxes to check because they NEED a certain type of old favorite on the new console.
In my head, current day Nintendo is like a famous old music act that only tours these days and doesn't release any new music. You know they'll peddle out their greatest hits, but nothing they're doing these days will wow you like they did in the past. It bums me out that this is how current day me thinks of Nintnedo.
I'll end this on a blasphemous note, I just really wish all they did was create games. I really feel this has seriously hampered their creativity in the recent years as each new console it seems they have a bunch boxes to check because they NEED a certain type of old favorite on the new console.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I actually edited right before to try and better reflect that it is a problem that shouldn't be ignored. I just don't like cherry picking one person's flaw without acknowledging how wide spread it is (if that makes sense).
Pro from Dover
Member
I like how Bosman, with the Happy Miyamoto Mask, calls us all boys. I can dig.
I agree with everything u said there.^^ i feel there is some kind of double standard sadly.
Welp, and here i thought u had some serious response here.TT
KingdomHeartsFan
Member
I wish Nintendo would just get rid of him already so I can get a proper Paper Mario game.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I am now dead.
That whole section on the post-Pixar world of characters not being so stupid anymore really hit the nail on the head. Get it together Nintendo.
Already Torn
Banned
I'm saying he's getting old and all of his organ systems are doing their jobs worse.
wonderful103
Member
Miyamoto threads are always full of embarrassing sentiments that grossly misrepresent the game development process. Not that Kyle has done any better with that video.
Facts don't matter, only opinions presented as such
Holy shit. First time watching this. I genuinely laughed at the end. So. Freaking. Trueeeee.
Freezie KO
Banned
If Star Fox Zero played like Sin and Punishment 2, then the cutscenes could show Slippy defecating on Falco, and I'd still play the game.
Criticizing the story misses the point. I won't go down the foxhole of why I think 99.9% of all video game stories are poorly-written, but it seems that this isn't the right way to criticize a game about fuzzy puppets in space.
The true failure is what he mentions about the GamePad.
The market had summarily rejected dual-screen console gameplay. So in order to satisfy nobody, Nintendo forced GamePad implementation while keeping the general formula very similar. So they alienated classic Star Fox fans with the GamePad and didn't give people who wanted a brand-new GamePad experience anything that new.
Meanwhile, games like Splatoon, Mario Kart, and Smash Bros. showed that replayable online multiplayer can still sell games on an extremely niche console like Wii U. But rather than put the effort into that, Nintendo spent years finding a way for the GamePad to sabotage the game's campaign.
Just a disaster all around.
Criticizing the story misses the point. I won't go down the foxhole of why I think 99.9% of all video game stories are poorly-written, but it seems that this isn't the right way to criticize a game about fuzzy puppets in space.
The true failure is what he mentions about the GamePad.
The market had summarily rejected dual-screen console gameplay. So in order to satisfy nobody, Nintendo forced GamePad implementation while keeping the general formula very similar. So they alienated classic Star Fox fans with the GamePad and didn't give people who wanted a brand-new GamePad experience anything that new.
Meanwhile, games like Splatoon, Mario Kart, and Smash Bros. showed that replayable online multiplayer can still sell games on an extremely niche console like Wii U. But rather than put the effort into that, Nintendo spent years finding a way for the GamePad to sabotage the game's campaign.
Just a disaster all around.
Candescence
Member
If KI:Uprising and SF0 have "dogshit" controls, then so does every console FPS since Halo. Dual-analog is absolute garbage, the only a lot of people overlook that is because they're used to it and the dual-analog setup is 'standard'. It's why I love Splatoon's gyro controls and avoid playing shooters on console if I can play them on PC instead, where I can get controls that aren't garbage.
Already Torn
Banned
I mean English isn't a very intuitive language but a lot of people already speak it so developers tend not to make up their own language systems for games.
"My pronunciations are much more consistent once you really get into speaking it. You'll get there, but there's a learning curve."
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Haha. Miiverse part kills me every time.
99.9999% of the population would disagree
there's a reason why it's the standard and this gyro gamepad motion shit will never become the standard. even the wii, which sold a fuckzillion units and people loved, has had little influence in the world of video game input methods because people got sick of it. they didn't get sick of dual analog.
Candescence
Member
Exactly! 'Regular' controllers are virtually incomprehensible to non-gamers. Hell, a lot of people hated the dual-stick aiming setup for FPS until Halo came along.
SolidSnakex
Member
No, people like dual analog because its works and don't require a button to be mapped specifically for recalibrating the recitcle whenever it inevitably fucks up every few minutes.
KingdomHeartsFan
Member
Are you saying its not a fact that Miyamoto was against putting a story in Paper Mario?
Already Torn
Banned
No no, the point is that everyone already knows how to control shooters with twin sticks and changing it isn't worth it. You're just fixing a problem that doesn't need to be solved because everyone's already on the same page.
Bosman delivers a harsh reality check to hardcore Nintendo fans who constantly lie to themselves and everyone around them about the Wii U and the gamepad. The entire industry predicted this was going to be terrible from the moment Nintendo revealed it at E3. This thing was not what gamers wanted and never would be. The death of the Wii U shows that. I love Nintendo as much as ANYONE. No, I don't have Amiibos sitting on every surface in my room, nor do I currently own a Wii U (anymore), but I have been playing Nintendo games for 20 years. The N64 is probably still my favorite console ever, with the SNES being up there as well. And I have been PITYING Nintendo for the past 2 years. It has been an ugly scene and continues to be.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Just kill me now Papa Bosman.
Pro from Dover
Member
From another thread.I can dig the Sin and Punishment comparison. But I always seen it like this...
In one, we control the flying dude with the gun:
And the other we control the dude flying the plane:
...If this makes any sense.
Bjoern the Smexy
Member
It's really apparent that Miyamoto is getting old and should be replaced over the next few years.
It's hard to actually accept this but it's pretty obvious. He's stuck in the past and Nintendo's non-Miyamoto output seems to be getting better and better (Splatoon, Captain Toad) while Miyamoto's output seems to be getting worse with each installment (2D Mario, Star Fox).
Especially in Splatoon's case it shows that Nintendo's young talents seem to be much better at creating something fun than Miyamoto is nowadays. I know I will not like the day where Miyamoto leaves the company but it will probably be for the better.
It's hard to actually accept this but it's pretty obvious. He's stuck in the past and Nintendo's non-Miyamoto output seems to be getting better and better (Splatoon, Captain Toad) while Miyamoto's output seems to be getting worse with each installment (2D Mario, Star Fox).
Especially in Splatoon's case it shows that Nintendo's young talents seem to be much better at creating something fun than Miyamoto is nowadays. I know I will not like the day where Miyamoto leaves the company but it will probably be for the better.
wonderful103
Member
^^^^
Nsmbu+luigi is a top 3 2d Mario game.
Dual analog is dog shit. It's a well known fact that a cheating algorithm is standard and required to make the scheme even remotely tenable. It's also notable that verticality and enemy placement/ai have been significantly neutered in level design as a result of the scheme's limitations.
The general population being conditioned to accept shit doesn't change any of those facts.
Infrared wii remote pointing is roughly equal to steam controller (depending whether you prefer pointing or trackpad) is better than gyro (motion+/move/game pad/ds4 - all of which require the occasional recenter) is much much better than standard dual analog. None of those even remotely compare to a mouse, but all of those options don't require a cheating snap-to algorithm to make work.
Facts vs opinions.
Nsmbu+luigi is a top 3 2d Mario game.
Dual analog is dog shit. It's a well known fact that a cheating algorithm is standard and required to make the scheme even remotely tenable. It's also notable that verticality and enemy placement/ai have been significantly neutered in level design as a result of the scheme's limitations.
The general population being conditioned to accept shit doesn't change any of those facts.
Infrared wii remote pointing is roughly equal to steam controller (depending whether you prefer pointing or trackpad) is better than gyro (motion+/move/game pad/ds4 - all of which require the occasional recenter) is much much better than standard dual analog. None of those even remotely compare to a mouse, but all of those options don't require a cheating snap-to algorithm to make work.
Facts vs opinions.
Freezie KO
Banned
It's not entirely that simple.
I played Call of Duty with the Wii remote and found it to be a much better experience than dual analog (which is pretty unintuitive). But Wii was also an SD Nintendo console with poor online infrastructure and no community in an era of HD consoles with XBox Live and voice chat taking over. Expecting people to jump onto it as the FPS console of choice would be crazy.
The future is probably dual analog with optional gyro assist.
You have intimate knowledge of Nintendo's development process that we are not aware of?
Already Torn
Banned
I like cheating in video games, thank you very much. Especially when I can lie down only my couch on my stomach while doing so.
And it's still better than Uprising. I always got the impression that Uprising used those controls because there was no duel stock option, otherwise it obviously would have. Like Prime Hunters did back in the day.
And it's still better than Uprising. I always got the impression that Uprising used those controls because there was no duel stock option, otherwise it obviously would have. Like Prime Hunters did back in the day.
Well, I liked Star Fox. It wasn't hitting-the-nail-on-the-head, but I appreciate what it was trying to do with the gameplay.
Miyamoto is getting old, yes. He's in his 60s. I don't think he should be directing the overall output at Nintendo, but in no way is SF0 some colossal failure. It's a good game. Pikmin 3 was a great game.
Wii Music...er, not so much
Miyamoto is getting old, yes. He's in his 60s. I don't think he should be directing the overall output at Nintendo, but in no way is SF0 some colossal failure. It's a good game. Pikmin 3 was a great game.
Wii Music...er, not so much
Kyle is referring to a fairly specific kind of failure.
When the WiiU launched, the writing was kind of on the wall, but many people refused to see it. It was only after WiiU's second Christmas that the system truly imploded, and plenty of people put together post-launch mortems trying to figure out what went wrong. One thing that was mentioned frequently was that the GamePad essentially doubled the cost of the console, and yet nobody seemed to have any good ideas for how to make compelling games with it (besides off-TV play, which was a convenient luxury). Nintendo just tossed the GamePad out into third party waters and said "Find a good use for it!" but nobody did, largely because Nintendo's own first party wasn't able to make good use of the GamePad (because they never asked for it, it only came into being because Nintendo felt they needed a gimmick in order to succeed, and this particular idea was all the hardware department was able to come up with). The N64 had Mario 64. The Wii had Wii Sports. A new gimmick needs a great game that shows the world (developers and customers alike) what that gimmick can do, and WiiU didn't have that.
Satoru Iwata clearly heard these reports (or Nintendo came up with their own studies which said the same thing), so he said that rather than cut the GamePad loose with a firmware update and make it optional (which was an idea a number of people were tossing around), he tasked Miyamoto to prove that the GamePad was a good idea, worthy of it's inflated cost and worthy of being the primary control method on WiiU. Miyamoto soon after said that he had three games which would do just that, Starfox Zero, Project Guard, and Project Giant Robot.
Some people like Starfox Zero's GamePad implementation, but plenty of other people think that it's horrible and that it's a perfect example of what's wrong with the GamePad. That's the specific failure that Kyle's pointing out, that Miyamoto failed in his mission to prove in hindsight with these three games that the WiiU was a good idea.
Miyamoto was about equally involved in Splatoon, Captain Todd, and 2D Mario. He's a general supervisor so all EAD (or EPD) games go through him and get his stamp of approval. The only games in recent times that we know he's had more involvement in is Pikmin 3 and Star Fox Zero.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
I knew it was a club nintendo survey, I just couldnt think of the name, so I decided on the closest thing, a poll, thought it would be easy to understand from that.
I
U don't put word to my mouth here.
Lie to myself? Holy i guess i am lieing when i said nintendoland show me so much of the gamepad potential. I am also lieing when i said the gamepad helped a lot in XenoX and Zelda game when it makes the games goes faster without the need of pausing. Hell i am also lieing when i said gamepad add immersion to ZombiU and fatal frame V as i feel really in the position of the game.
Those twin sticks don't suddenly become the norm. It is a gimmick too first.
Hell, touchscreen is a gimmick before during DS era. I bet to you now. Releasing a smarpthone nowadays without a touchscreen is guarantee bomb.
I would love to see Nintendo keep coming out with new control scheme as stagnation is never a good thing.
Really nice of u to take away Super Mario Maker which perfectly shows how good gamepad can be utilized there. But well all for your agenda.
U don't put word to my mouth here.
Lie to myself? Holy i guess i am lieing when i said nintendoland show me so much of the gamepad potential. I am also lieing when i said the gamepad helped a lot in XenoX and Zelda game when it makes the games goes faster without the need of pausing. Hell i am also lieing when i said gamepad add immersion to ZombiU and fatal frame V as i feel really in the position of the game.
Those twin sticks don't suddenly become the norm. It is a gimmick too first.
Hell, touchscreen is a gimmick before during DS era. I bet to you now. Releasing a smarpthone nowadays without a touchscreen is guarantee bomb.
I would love to see Nintendo keep coming out with new control scheme as stagnation is never a good thing.
Really nice of u to take away Super Mario Maker which perfectly shows how good gamepad can be utilized there. But well all for your agenda.
Candescence
Member
Wow, hyperbolic statement, much?
Gyro is already integrated into the Steam Controller with a beautifully elegant example of blending the right trackpad aiming and gyro aiming with gyro being activate only when the pad is touched (meaning the gyro is automatically recalibrated every time you stop touching it, which is quite often since the pad acts like a mouse/trackball), and the Dualshock 4 has gyro but no dev uses the damn thing despite it being a fantastic supplement for aiming precision. People complain about not having options in Zero, but you'd be hard-pressed to find console games in general with control customization in any capacity aside from stick sensitivity if you're lucky.
It only works because every console FPS gives you training wheels via aim assist, if it didn't, no console FPS would be remotely playable. Gyro doesn't have that limitation, and you just need to click the left stick in SF0 to recalibrate. It's no worse than, say, the controls making it impossible to jump and aim at the same fucking time. Oh, hey, guess which control scheme has that problem? Answer: not gyro, unless any specific game has the gall to break convention and move jump to one of the shoulder buttons, and the only game I know does it is Cloudbuilt.
The Steam Controller already provides the perfect replacement for the right stick, and the principle is the same as using a trackball or a mouse, which is not much different from a stick but is much more precise.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
If it's not a critical success, how's does it proves the worth?
The game is sitting like at 69 on MC, that's not even worth to pull the divisive argument.
People talks about pikmin 3 and Splatoon, but those games offered multiple control choices...
Pro from Dover
Member
Rewatching the video and...
Hey, Miyamoto! That's why I say 'hey man nice shot.'
'What a good shot, man.'
Hey, Miyamoto! That's why I say 'hey man nice shot.'
'What a good shot, man.'
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
tbh, I did buy adventures and assault for the story aswell as the gameplay, theres waaaaayyy more story in adventures and assault, especially since they made actual sequels and not just a reimagination like mario, which is specifically why I was so down on starfox zero initially because it seems miyamoto just wanted to make starfox/64 again, with slight twists, like he does with mario, and with some of the first games, zelda aswell.
An average doesnt say anything about a game being divisive(unless is close to 0 or 100)
Brad Grenz
Member
Uprising literally shipped with a table stand because the controls were so unwieldy and was completely unplayable if you were left handed unless you bought the absurd "frankenstick" add-on.
While, the three titles there failed to show what gamepad can do, other games like Splatoon, Super Mario Maker already shows what it can do here.
Off tv play and other quality of life feature like in zelda and xenoX already shows what it can do here. Hell even Captain Toad and Mario Party also shows its potential here.
nephilimdj
Member
I dont think full blame should be put on him, as the video showed it was Iwata and the whole board room pushing for gamepad. Miyamoto's failure and delay of Pikmin 4 most likely was a deeper issue.
Candescence
Member
The game was honestly better played without the stand. The left-handed thing is another problem entirely, but it's not like anyone else accommodates lefties, to be fair. At least there are options for lefties in Uprising.
So many places where this is becoming appropriate
The fact that the guys in the back seats are dead kinda sucks the fun out of that gif.