MLB Suspends 12 more for PEDs

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@____@ said:
We'll see. IF -- and that's a big if -- MLB has the evidence it claims to have, I wouldn't be so sure that the suspension will be reduced to 50.
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They can have all the evidence they want, there is no chance they will be able to get away with saying the things he did count as 2 strikes, or 2 and a half strikes, or whatever many strikes they need to get to the completely arbitrary number of 211.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
And all of that stuff was made up by Selig as he went along. That is the problem the PA has with all of this. There is a CBA for a reason, you can't just change the rules around because you want to make an example out of someone or because A-Rod is unlikable and overpaid. A-Rod is going to win this shit easily.

And there is nothing about "copping" to this. MLB never offered any deal that would have resulted in a 50 game suspension, otherwise A-Rod would have taken it. They wanted him to agree to 211 games, threatened him with a lifetime ban if he didn't take their deal, and he rightly called their bluff.
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You don't even know what the evidence is yet.
 
Angry Grimace said:
You don't even know what the evidence is yet.
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It doesn't matter what it is. It's one offense. They are cherry picking to get to 211.

Selig didn't use his "Best interest of baseball" powers (because he doesn't want to open up that can of worms). A-Rod is being suspended under the CBA. The CBA says that if someone is found to be using/buying PEDs they are suspended 50 games on a first time offense. 100 on a second. Where do you get to 211?
 
Ninja Scooter said:
And all of that stuff was made up by Selig as he went along. That is the problem the PA has with all of this. There is a CBA for a reason, you can't just change the rules around because you want to make an example out of someone or because A-Rod is unlikable and overpaid. A-Rod is going to win this shit easily.

And there is nothing about "copping" to this. MLB never offered any deal that would have resulted in a 50 game suspension, otherwise A-Rod would have taken it. They wanted him to agree to 211 games, threatened him with a lifetime ban if he didn't take their deal, and he rightly called their bluff.
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I do think there is a chance he'll get the suspension reduced, but not down to 50 games.
 
BruiserBear said:
As I've mentioned earlier, MLB felt he went above and beyond just getting caught. He admitted to using them previously
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Under an agreement with the MLB that they specifically would not punish players. They can't (but are) consider that when coming up with the penalty

Once the shit hit the fan he was on that Biogenesis list, he began reaching out to people to tell them to keep their mouths shut, etc.

So he didn't just get caught, like the other guys.
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Just like Melky Cabrera (50 days)

He tried to put up a front for years, he obstructed their investigation
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This is true of every cheater, not just arod

, and now he's still saying stupid shit about how it's all not fair. He deserved special treatment because his case was different than the others.
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Those comments have nothing to do with the MLB, but the Yankees efforts to keep him off the field and not pay him. It is painfully obvious that they planned to ride out the clock until he got suspended before activating him. Just go back to Cashman saying on the record that he needs to "STFU" about being cleared by the doctor to play (the first time)

Also, Braun got more than 50 games. Why? Because his case was special. He got caught last year, and got off on a technicality, so he was shown the evidence, and accepted a 60+ game suspension.
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Braun simply made an agreement that worked out for him. That should have no impact on what happens with A-Rod. I would've supported Braun fighting a suspension over 50 days too, but it made sense for him tot take it. It has nothing to do with it being a second violation btw, he got 50 days for the drugs and another 15 for defaming that guy in public.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
It doesn't matter what it is. It's one offense. They are cherry picking to get to 211.

Selig didn't use his "Best interest of baseball" powers (because he doesn't want to open up that can of worms). A-Rod is being suspended under the CBA. The CBA says that if someone is found to be using/buying PEDs they are suspended 50 games on a first time offense. 100 on a second. Where do you get to 211?
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Probably by stacking consecutive incidents.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
So then why wasn't he suspended for 100 or lifetime, then? If it's 2 incidents or 3 incidents that's the protocol. MLB is just making shit up as they go along.
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I find it highly unlikely that MLB simply made up a totally baseless number. They probably have a copy of the CBA in front of them and lawyers involved.
 
I'm glad A-Rod didn't allow himself to get bullied into a suspension. There is no way a legit arbitrator rules against him with no positive test. MLB is just trying to pile on an unpopular guy to improve their cred.

Picked A-Rod up in fantasy today because I'm convinced he will win his appeal
 
ARod trying to cover up the issue and obstruct evidence goes above PED use. I think it's fair to have his suspension go above the standard punishments because of that. If Jeter did stuff like this, sure he'd probably only get 50 games, but I think it's fair to increase ARod's punishment regardless of the reasons behind why the MLB would want to. Sending a message that interfering in PED investigations will not be accepted is fine.
 
What ever happened to MLB claiming they could ban Arod for life? All talk and no walk. It's pathetic that they think they have any power over the union.
 
sangreal said:
Under an agreement with the MLB that they specifically would not punish players. They can't (but are) consider that when coming up with the penalty

Just like Melky Cabrera (50 days)

This is true of every cheater, not just arod

Those comments have nothing to do with the MLB, but the Yankees efforts to keep him off the field and not pay him. It is painfully obvious that they planned to ride out the clock until he got suspended before activating him. Just go back to Cashman saying on the record that he needs to "STFU" about being cleared by the doctor to play (the first time)

Braun simply made an agreement that worked out for him. That should have no impact on what happens with A-Rod. I would've supported Braun fighting a suspension over 50 days too, but it made sense for him tot take it. It has nothing to do with it being a second violation btw, he got 50 days for the drugs and another 15 for defaming that guy in public.
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So you're willing to concede that special circumstances did affect the Braun suspension. How on earth do you not think the big picture affects A-Rod? Admitting PED use in 2009, going on a PR campaign to denounce drugs to little kids, obstructing an investigation into his continued use of PEDs, lying about it repeatedly, etc.

At the end of the day I think the penalties are not strong enough, so I guess I simply have no sympathy for A-Rod. I don't give a shit about a cheaters feelings or his career. IMO he's lucky they let him make so much money as a fraud for the past decade already. His behavior now is just as shameless as ever. He wants to play tonight when almost no one, including his own teammates, wants him on the field. Who do you know who has the kind of arrogance to do what he's doing tonight? It's a special kind of fucking crazy IMO.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
Should I scan it for the number 211? I bet it's not there.
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That's non-responsive. I take it your answer is no, then; e.g. you're vehemently arguing about the contents of a document whose contents are totally unknown to you.

I find it highly unlikely MLB simply invented a number they're sure to lose on in going after the biggest in-league PED bust in the game's history. Whether they've got legs to stand on for 211, I don't know, but I would be willing to bet that there is some basis behind that number beyond throwing a dart at a board.
 
BruiserBear said:
So you're willing to concede that special circumstances do affect the suspension. How on earth do you not think the big picture affects A-Rod? Admitting PED use in 2009, going on a PR campaign to denounce drugs to little kids, obstructing an investigation into his continued use of PEDs, lying about it repeatedly, etc.
IMO.
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what are special about those circumstances? He admitted in 2009 to failing an anonymous drug test in 2003 (gee I wonder how that leaked, Bud?) which was taken under the agreement that it could not be used to punish any players, so that one goes out the window. Obstructing an investigation? Melky tried to do that and still got 50 games. Lying about it repeatedly? So did Braun and damn near every player who gets popped.

Angry Grimace said:
That's non-responsive. I take it your answer is no, then; e.g. you're vehemently arguing about the contents of a document whose contents are totally unknown to you.

I find it highly unlikely MLB simply invented a number they're sure to lose on in going after the biggest in-league PED bust in the game's history. Whether they've got legs to stand on for 211, I don't know, but I would be willing to bet that there is some basis behind that number beyond throwing a dart at a board.
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The basis behind it is that it makes up the rest of this season, and all of next season. that's it. There is nothing else behind it. And again, the CBA is clear about lengths of suspensions, so yes the MLB is pulling the idea that A-Rod's offenses are worth one and one-quarter seasons out of their asses.
 
Angry Grimace said:
That's non-responsive. I take it your answer is no, then; e.g. you're vehemently arguing about the contents of a document whose contents are totally unknown to you.

I find it highly unlikely MLB simply invented a number they're sure to lose on in going after the biggest in-league PED bust in the game's history. Whether they've got legs to stand on for 211, I don't know, but I would be willing to bet that there is some basis behind that number beyond throwing a dart at a board.
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It's a public document, you can find it here: http://mlb.mlb.com/pa/pdf/jda.pdf

Discipline is outlined in section 7
 
sangreal said:
It's a public document, you can find it here: http://mlb.mlb.com/pa/pdf/jda.pdf

Discipline is outlined in section 7
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Here's the thing: I'm not arguing anything other than MLB probably has a basis for that number vs. some other number. Saying, "MLB obviously full of shit and making stuff up" is silly when you haven't read the document and the specifics behind the suspension are still matters of hearsay.

As I said, I don't know the specifics beyond the basic logical conclusion that MLB probably wouldn't make up a blatantly unsupportable number.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
what are special about those circumstances? He admitted in 2009 to failing an anonymous drug test in 2003 (gee I wonder how that leaked, Bud?) which was taken under the agreement that it could not be used to punish any players, so that one goes out the window. Obstructing an investigation? Melky tried to do that and still got 50 games. Lying about it repeatedly? So did Braun and damn near every player who gets popped.
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Obstruction wastes time and money and could potentially lead to PED use being covered up successfully. I don't see why the MLB can't go forward with the idea that ARod doing something like this could encourage others to obstruct investigations as well if they have decent evidence of ARod's involvement. They can just say that they made a mistake with the previous judgment on Melky or that ARod used more resources for obstructing.
 
BruiserBear said:
So you're willing to concede that special circumstances did affect the Braun suspension. How on earth do you not think the big picture affects A-Rod? Admitting PED use in 2009, going on a PR campaign to denounce drugs to little kids, obstructing an investigation into his continued use of PEDs, lying about it repeatedly, etc.

At the end of the day I think the penalties are not strong enough, so I guess I simply have no sympathy for A-Rod. I don't give a shit about a cheaters feelings or his career. IMO he's lucky they let him make so much money as a fraud for the past decade already. His behavior now is just as shameless as ever. He wants to play tonight when almost no one, including his own teammates, wants him on the field. Who do you know who has the kind of arrogance to do what he's doing tonight? It's a special kind of fucking crazy IMO.
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it is explicitly against the agreement to consider tests from before 2006. I have no problem with suspending a-rod, and I have no problem with increasing the penalties. My issue is that Selig is trying to go around the agreement to single out a-rod because of a vandetta. Give everyone their fifty days and then renegotiate the JDA. Seems the players would support changing the rules
 
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Obstruction wastes time and money and could potentially lead to PED use being covered up successfully. I don't see why the MLB can't go forward with the idea that ARod doing something like this could encourage others to obstruct investigations as well if they have decent evidence. They can just say that they made a mistake with the previous judgment on Melky or that ARod used more resources for obstructing.
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and ARod and the PA can use Melky's case for precedence and get that thrown out.
 
So A-Rod will officially be able to play for the rest of this season. The appeal process begins in November/December. MLB is a joke.
 
sangreal said:
it is explicitly against the agreement to consider tests from before 2006. I have no problem with suspending a-rod, and I have no problem with increasing the penalties. My issue is that Selig is trying to go around the agreement to single out a-rod because of a vandetta. Give everyone their fifty days and then renegotiate the JDA. Seems the players would support changing the rules
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Why does Selig have a vendetta against A-Rod?
 
sangreal said:
it is explicitly against the agreement to consider tests from before 2006. I have no problem with suspending a-rod, and I have no problem with increasing the penalties. My issue is that Selig is trying to go around the agreement to single out a-rod because of a vandetta
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Pretty much my problem with it. If this was Mike Trout or Derek Jeter who did all of the same things A-Rod did, would they be facing a 211 game suspension? Not a chance in hell. And that's not right.


BruiserBear said:
Why does Selig have a vendetta against A-Rod?
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Because he's unlikable. Because he is making $30 million and crippling the books of the biggest franchise in the sport. Because he sucks now. Because everywhere he goes a circus follows and Selig is tired of it. Don't believe it? Look at Barry Bonds. He put up a fucking 1.045 OPS in his last season and yet couldn't get a job offer the next year. You think Selig and the owners colluding had nothing to do with that? They wanted Bonds and all of his drama out of the game and now they are setting their sights on A-Rod.
 
JHall said:
Honestly, both are equally as bad. Both ruin the sport. Pete Rose and the 1919 Black Sox deserved their punishments. Steroid users need to be punished as harshly as they were.
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Bullshit.. While Pete Rose isn't a 'role model' and generally a pretty scummy dude. He only BET ON HIS TEAM FOR THEM TO WIN... In my eyes thats just as innocent as a coach saying "Hey guys I'll shave my head if we make the playoffs, and if we don't you all have to shave yours."

PED's are the ultimate game rigging mechanism. With PED's littering the sport who knows what teams would have had a better chance or would have lost games they actually won because of their players using PED's.

Pete Rose has the most hits in all of baseball EVER. WITHOUT PEDs.

Pete needs to be in the Hall of Fame for that accomplishment alone.

THE FUCKING END.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
The basis behind it is that it makes up the rest of this season, and all of next season. that's it. There is nothing else behind it. And again, the CBA is clear about lengths of suspensions, so yes the MLB is pulling the idea that A-Rod's offenses are worth one and one-quarter seasons out of their asses.
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Just read the CBA linked above instead of continually asserting what's in it without reading. There are several discretionary suspensions for participating in distribution and other offenses, e.g. "At least 80 but not more than 100..." The 50 and 100 game suspensions you are referring to is for a positive test, which has never occurred.
 
Angry Grimace said:
Except you're patently wrong; just read the CBA linked above. There are several discretionary suspensions for participating in distribution and other offenses. The 50 and 100 game suspensions you are referring to is for a positive test, which has never occurred.
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The "other offenses" are all things that other players have done in terms of obstruction and lying and they never were handed additional penalties.
 
BruiserBear said:
Why does Selig have a vendetta against A-Rod?
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He doesn't have a vendetta against A-Rod.

What he does have is the scarlet letter of being the commissioner when steroid use got totally fucking out of control. He presided over what was called at the time "the greatest era of baseball's history" when McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds were going bananas.

Now he's trying to reverse all that. What better way to balance the furies by taking out a guy so universally disliked as Alex Rodriguez? Also, A-Rod supposedly tried to interfere with the investigation (trying to buy documents to destroy, trying to bribe people, trying to intimidate people into keeping quiet, etc) that I'm sure Selig wasn't too thrilled with either.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
The "other offenses" are all things that other players have done in terms of obstruction and lying and they never were handed additional penalties.
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Baseball isn't obligated to go after anyone in particular. Arguing that its a witch hunt is just changing tack mid-argument to an entirely different one which will probably have little relevance at the disciplinary hearing.
 
Let's put it this way: Anything Pete Rose did with gambling, you KNOW Jordan did, too. That little retirement stunt, come on.

Pete was an asshole. Maybe the best player in the 70's, but he was still a dick. And when he got in deep shit, nobody would speak up for him.

Although, his players and teammates seemed to like him okay according to many interviews I've heard lately, he was not popular with press, to say the least.

Same for Barry Bonds, maybe the best position player of the 90's (I go Griffey, but hard to say for sure), but when it came time to take him down a peg, people couldn't wait, because he was a dick.
 
WhatRobEats said:
Bullshit.. While Pete Rose isn't a 'role model' and generally a pretty scummy dude. He only BET ON HIS TEAM FOR THEM TO WIN... In my eyes thats just as innocent as a coach saying "Hey guys I'll shave my head if we make the playoffs, and if we don't you all have to shave yours."

PED's are the ultimate game rigging mechanism. With PED's littering the sport who knows what teams would have had a better chance or would have lost games they actually won because of their players using PED's.

Pete Rose has the most hits in all of baseball EVER. WITHOUT PEDs.

Pete needs to be in the Hall of Fame for that accomplishment alone.

THE FUCKING END.
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He also walked by a sign in the clubhouse every day that said "If you bet on baseball you are banned for life", and he still bet on baseball. THE FUCKING END.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
He also walked by a sign in the clubhouse every day that said "If you bet on baseball you are banned for life", and he still bet on baseball. THE FUCKING END.
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I have nothing against Rose personally and I do think he should be enshrined due to his playing career but like you said; it's in every clubhouse. You don't bet on baseball. Not like he didn't know the consequences of his actions.
 
BruiserBear said:
Why does Selig have a vendetta against A-Rod?
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Alex Rodriguez may be suspended based on Anthony Galea testimony (2011)
Source: MLB could suspend Alex Rodriguez of New York Yankees for illegal poker (2011)
MLB commissioner Selig considers suspending A-Rod (2009)

He has been after alex for any reason since his name was leaked from the confidential survey tests. Alex was supposed to save baseball (and Selig's legacy) from the steroid era and he ended up doing the opposite
 
Nutsacjac said:
I have nothing against Rose personally and I do think he should be enshrined due to his playing career but like you said; it's in every clubhouse. You don't bet on baseball. Not like he didn't know the consequences of his actions.
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It's about what you think the Hall is about.

I think it's about history, and honoring great physical accomplishments. Tell the story how he bet on baseball on his plaque, but it's crazy to ignore one of the all-time greats.

However, if you think it is about honoring the spirit of integrity along with physical accomplishments, maybe you don't want Pete in.

With roids, guys cheated to enhance their game. With Pete, his gambling didn't help him hit the way he hit, and didn't help him play with the fire with which he is reputed to have played. He needs to be in there, because without him, there is a big hole there in the 70's.

The hole from the 90's will be even worse.

NOTE: I am biased. I am from the NKY/S.Ohio area. So, it is what it is.
 
I also remember the furor when Canseco's book came out. "He's just pissed off that no one will sign him," they said. How DARE he have the gall to say such luminaries as Mark McGwire, Roger Clemens, and Rafael Palmeiro did steroids?

Then just a few weeks later Palmeiro got busted and everyone had a collective, "Fuck, was Canseco right?" moment.
 
Pete should never come close to the Hall, period. He denied it for YEARS only to "come clean" to sell some books. Gambling runs deep in the sport's history, even in the amateur era where players were being bought off left and right; it almost completely ruined the sport before it ever got started. Can't blame MLB for putting their foot down at all.

As for this Rodriguez suspension, the length is more "just cause" ambiguity from Selig due to "attempting to cover-up his violations of the Program by engaging in a course of conduct intended to obstruct and frustrate the Office of the Commissioner's investigation." I can't really criticize it until I know more about how far he went to obstruct them.
 
clemenx said:
I don't see any good player on that list. Only Nelson Cruz is the suspect late bloomer. Peralta has been a solid player some seasons and has sucked in others.

Unless A-Rod was juicing in his age 20 season I don't think they made them better than he ever was.
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Some sources are calming a rod has been juicing since his junior year in high school.
 
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