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[Suburban Cowboy]

Okay - so it's this sub 1% nutjob crew

More than 1%.

 

[callous]

Update. Rioters are, as I type this, throwing molotov cocktails at our embassy in Iran. The newspapers there have apparently reported that since this whole DFU thing was brought on TV in Denmark (covered in the news, obviously), it must have been sanctioned by the Danish government and we should all die.

Here we go again .....

 

[ronito]

Update. Rioters are, as I type this, throwing molotov cocktails at our embassy in Iran. The newspapers there have apparently reported that since this whole DFU thing was brought on TV in Denmark (covered in the news, obviously), it must have been sanctioned by the Danish government and we should all die.

Here we go again .....

Molotov Cocktails of Mercy, you mean.

 

[callous]

Like a soul cleansing type of device?

 

[cybamerc]

Now, DPF isn't a Neo Nazi party or anything like that. They are, however, quite right wing and quite some way off center.

This is only partly true. Dansk Folkeparti (the Danish People's Party) at it's core is a socialist party with a focus on welfare, environment, education and so forth. But their policies on immigration and crime are indeed right wing oriented.

Generally, the right in Denmark is quite leftist compared to most other countries. The big right wing parties in Denmark "Venstre" (Danish Liberal Party) and "Konservative" (Conservative Party) both support the welfare state. The American sister party of "Venstre" is The Democratic Party but "Venstre" is placed quite a bit left of the Democrats on the political spectrum.

On the extreme left we have "Enhedslisten" (The Danish Red-Green Alliance) and "Socialistisk Folkeparti" (Socialist People's Party) which are both essentially communist parties. Both are represented in the Danish parliament.

Unfortunately for the rest of Denmark, there was an undercover journalist present at this gathering...

Just to be clear it wasn't a journalist but rather a self-proclaimed artist from a leftist activist group called "Defending Denmark".

This "artist" joined Dansk Folkepartis Ungdom (the Danish People's Party's youth organization) 1.5 years ago and it was during this period that the video of the Muhammed drawing contest was filmed. Incidentally, the "artist" helped organize the event.

 

[callous]

Not that it changes a thing, but thanks to cybamerc for the detailed layout and correction about the journalist/"artist". My main point was that DFP aren't Neo Nazis.

 

[SiegfriedFM]

Here's a principle Hitler held dear: Jews are worthless dogs and should be systematically exterminated. Let's imagine that a man living in the 30s drew a catoon that mocked this principle of Hitler's. The SS then came and raided his house and killed the man. Who here is at fault--the cartoonist, who according to you should have known better than to perform an action that held such negative consequences; or Hitler and his followers, who raid and murder for a cartoon that ridicules their insidious principles?

This thread should have ended on page 1. I refer to Godwin's Law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

 

[ronito]

This thread should have ended on page 1. I refer to Godwin's Law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

What's this Godwin's Law of which you speak? I have never heard of it.

 

[cybamerc]

When the Danish Muslim leaders went to the Middle East, they were there to speak about Islamophobia in Europe. cybamerc falsely claimed that they added fake cartoons (or something to that effect) when they created an entire document that included many examples from many countries.

As usual you are misinformed. The sole purpose of the trip was to stir up trouble. They brought along with them pictures that were never printed in JyllandsPosten including an image of Muhammed being anally raped by a pig and a photograph of a french dude at a pig squeeling contest. They did claim that these pictures were from JyllandsPosten.

The delegation included such notables as Abu Laban who knows Omar Abdel Rahman - the "Blind Skeikh" who is serving life imprisonment for his involvement in the WTC bombing, Abu bashar who has ties to a terror cell in Germany and Ahmed Akkari who was caught on hidden camera suggesting that they'd send out a couple of gues to bomb a Danish immigrant politician. He also has a sentence for beating up a 11 year old kid.

These are not reasonable people.

I see a double standard on your part. If someone claimed (via cartoons or whatever) that Judaism is a "culture of violent aggression that kills innocent people because they believe that some land belongs to them", you'd be the first to agree that you can't have this in our Western society.

Did you know that a Danish artist entered the Iranian holocaust cartoon competition? How did the Danes react? We didn't...

 

[fat]

Pretty much everyone that reacted violently to the cartoons came from generally unedcuated societies.

If you goto well developed Muslim societies like UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, or Bahrain, you wouldn't see any of the crap you see extremists do on TV. I've been living in these countries for about 20 years now, and I have yet to see a single person who acts out like those retarded extremists.

When the corrupt governments of the other Muslim countries decide to start spending some more money on their people, and educate them in these matters, then maybe we'll start to see a higher level of tolerance from then. Until then, we'll just have to keep watching the media focus on someone burning a flag in some random village in Afghanistan, and have the rest of the world think the majority of Muslims act like that.

 

[heidern]

In your analogy, it's taken for granted that the car is definitely perfect, and that anything that happens is competely the fault of something else.

No, in my anaology it is possible that the car is perfect and something else is at fault(like say a drunk driver) but it is also possible that the car is at fault(maybe the brakes were out). The only way to know is to examine not only the driver, but the car itself.

What does any particular interpretation have to do with anything? Nothing. What matters is the interpretation of people who actually commit the bad acts.

For example, people who use their tax dollars are working for the military of that country, and are therefore enemy combatants, and therefore can be killed. You see the problem here? What's to say that a "nice" interpretation of the rule is the right one, and the "evil" interpretation is the wrong one?

You are criticising the interpretations and not the source. Since the interpretations are done by humans there is always the possiblity that the interpretation is flawed. In this case you are criticising the people(the driver) and not examining the car(Islam). Yet your contention isn't that some people suck, but that Islam is a negative.

I'm not "blindly" claiming anything. I'm using the (admittedly flawed and incomplete) evidence available to me.

:lol :lol :lol :lol

If by your own admission your evidence is incomplete and flawed then you have nothing and you are blindly claiming.

Again, I would say your haphazard guessing about the way of life of over a billion people is in and of itself a bad thing. To then further lay out accusations about Islam as a whole without any substantive argument and instead put the onus on others to prove your claims false is really bad. For example you say that terrorism by some minority of Muslims shows Islam is bad. It's like someone saying black people have a liking for dishonesty and stealing, showing the crime rate in some area with majority blacks is high and then asking others to disprove the claims. What you are doing is technically ignorant bigotry.

You should stay away from such sweeping claims. You should lay your complaints about terrorism at the door of the terrorists and not tar all Muslims with the same brush. The same goes for all your other complaints, you should point them at who actually does those actions. It is wholly wrong to also point your complaints at Muslims that disagree with those actions you complain about. If on the other hand you think there actually is an issue with Islam itself, then by all means feel free to point out where you think the source itself is at fault and supports bad actions.

 

[Chairman Yang]

(Stealth Fox, I'll try to respond to your stuff tomorrow.)

No, in my anaology it is possible that the car is perfect and something else is at fault(like say a drunk driver) but it is also possible that the car is at fault(maybe the brakes were out). The only way to know is to examine not only the driver, but the car itself.

What the heck? Congratulations, you've just agreed with my point! I think it's possible that Islam/the car is at fault. You agree. So what's the issue here, again?

You are criticising the interpretations and not the source. Since the interpretations are done by humans there is always the possiblity that the interpretation is flawed. In this case you are criticising the people(the driver) and not examining the car(Islam). Yet your contention isn't that some people suck, but that Islam is a negative.

I'm sorry, but if something is great in theory, but fails in practice, that philosophy sucks. "Don't blame Communism for being a poor ideology, blame all the people who kept misinterpreting it over the years!"

:lol :lol :lol :lol

If by your own admission your evidence is incomplete and flawed then you have nothing and you are blindly claiming.

What the hell? People make decisions based on incomplete and flawed evidence ALL OF THE TIME. In fact, I can't even think of a field where people make decisions based on perfect evidence. Even more so in the social sciences, where you can't exactly make an experimental world to test out things.

Again, I would say your haphazard guessing about the way of life of over a billion people is in and of itself a bad thing. To then further lay out accusations about Islam as a whole without any substantive argument and instead put the onus on others to prove your claims false is really bad. For example you say that terrorism by some minority of Muslims shows Islam is bad. It's like someone saying black people have a liking for dishonesty and stealing, showing the crime rate in some area with majority blacks is high and then asking others to disprove the claims. What you are doing is technically ignorant bigotry.

I'm not "guessing" anything. Did you even read the thread?

And you don't even seem to realize what claim I actually made. I claim that ideology can cause actions. THAT'S IT. Other things follow from that...namely, that Islam is an ideology and can therefore cause actions, and that some of these actions can be bad. Judging by your earlier statements you actually agree with me, so I have no idea what else you actually want me to prove.

You should stay away from such sweeping claims. You should lay your complaints about terrorism at the door of the terrorists and not tar all Muslims with the same brush. The same goes for all your other complaints, you should point them at who actually does those actions. It is wholly wrong to also point your complaints at Muslims that disagree with those actions you complain about. If on the other hand you think there actually is an issue with Islam itself, then by all means feel free to point out where you think the source itself is at fault and supports bad actions.

What sweeping claims? That Islam is not some special ideology that magically doesn't influence people?

Maybe you should stop with your knee-jerk outrage at any statement remotely critical of Islam, and actually respond to my arguments.

 

[Deku]

As usual you are misinformed. The sole purpose of the trip was to stir up trouble. They brought along with them pictures that were never printed in JyllandsPosten including an image of Muhammed being anally raped by a pig and a photograph of a french dude at a pig squeeling contest. They did claim that these pictures were from JyllandsPosten.

The delegation included such notables as Abu Laban who knows Omar Abdel Rahman - the "Blind Skeikh" who is serving life imprisonment for his involvement in the WTC bombing, Abu bashar who has ties to a terror cell in Germany and Ahmed Akkari who was caught on hidden camera suggesting that they'd send out a couple of gues to bomb a Danish immigrant politician. He also has a sentence for beating up a 11 year old kid.

These are not reasonable people.


Did you know that a Danish artist entered the Iranian holocaust cartoon competition? How did the Danes react? We didn't...

There's no point arguing with Fight for Freedom.

 

[heidern]

What the heck? Congratulations, you've just agreed with my point! I think it's possible that Islam/the car is at fault. You agree. So what's the issue here, again?

Oh, it's just the way you worded it. I though you misread my analogy, but actually you were reapplying it to what others in the thread were saying. My bad.

I'm sorry, but if something is great in theory, but fails in practice, that philosophy sucks.

No, the philosophy may be perfectly fine and it may be the practice that is entirely at fault. Again with the car analogy, it could be the cars fault or the drivers. You need to conduct an actual analysis work out which. Something which you have refused to do.

But tell me this, if a Muslim drinks alcohol even though Islam forbids alcohol, is that the fault of the Muslim or the fault of Islam, or do you have no opinion on the matter?

What the hell? People make decisions based on incomplete and flawed evidence ALL OF THE TIME.

And you don't even seem to realize what claim I actually made. I claim that ideology can cause actions. THAT'S IT. Other things follow from that...namely, that Islam is an ideology and can therefore cause actions, and that some of these actions can be bad.

No, you have gone further than that. You are claiming not only that Islam can cause bad actions, but that it does, and it causes more bad than it does good. Not only that but you are also implicitly going further since you are lumping all Muslims together as one. You expect all Muslims to answer for the fact that some Muslims have done bad things. The sticking your head in the sand and refusing to accept that there is diversity among Muslims is where I see you are going to far.

I don't suppose you think that because some priests molested kids you think that Christianity as a whole has a case to answer for supporting child molestation? Or that because some poor kid hotwires a car that all poor people around the world should answer for being suseptible to stealing? Or that all democracies around the world have to answer for the fact that the USA dropped a couple of nukes on Japan?

When you say Islam is to blame for terrorist attacks, you are not just attacking the terrorists you are also attacking me and all other Muslims that are wholly against such actions. By picking the lowest common denomintor as the standard you are by definition going to get a bad looking result.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

Oh, it's just the way you worded it. I though you misread my analogy, but actually you were reapplying it to what others in the thread were saying. My bad.


No, the philosophy may be perfectly fine and it may be the practice that is entirely at fault. Again with the car analogy, it could be the cars fault or the drivers. You need to conduct an actual analysis work out which. Something which you have refused to do.

But tell me this, if a Muslim drinks alcohol even though Islam forbids alcohol, is that the fault of the Muslim or the fault of Islam, or do you have no opinion on the matter?



No, you have gone further than that. You are claiming not only that Islam can cause bad actions, but that it does, and it causes more bad than it does good. Not only that but you are also implicitly going further since you are lumping all Muslims together as one. You expect all Muslims to answer for the fact that some Muslims have done bad things. The sticking your head in the sand and refusing to accept that there is diversity among Muslims is where I see you are going to far.

I don't suppose you think that because some priests molested kids you think that Christianity as a whole has a case to answer for supporting child molestation? Or that because some poor kid hotwires a car that all poor people around the world should answer for being suseptible to stealing? Or that all democracies around the world have to answer for the fact that the USA dropped a couple of nukes on Japan?

When you say Islam is to blame for terrorist attacks, you are not just attacking the terrorists you are also attacking me and all other Muslims that are wholly against such actions. By picking the lowest common denomintor as the standard you are by definition going to get a bad looking result.

Oh, great, you admitted you were Muslim. Your vision is obviously colored and your opinion means absolutely nothing!

 

[FightyF]

There's no point arguing with Fight for Freedom.

Because I'm always right...

The group of imams said that the three additional images were sent anonymously by mail to Muslims who were participating in an online debate on Jyllands-Posten,[26] and were circulated to illustrate the atmosphere of Islamophobia in which they lived.[27] On February 1 BBC World incorrectly reported that one of them had been published in Jyllands-Posten.[28]

We urge you [recipient of the letter or dossier] to — on the behalf of thousands of believing Muslims — to give us the opportunity of having a constructive contact with the press and particularly with the relevant decision makers, not briefly, but with a scientific methodology and a planned and long-term programme seeking to make views approach each other and remove misunderstandings between the two parties involved. Since we do not wish for Muslims to be accused of being backward and narrow, likewise we do not wish for Danes to be accused of ideological arrogance either. When this relationship is back on its track, the result will bring satisfaction, an underpinning of security and the stable relations, and a flourishing Denmark for all that live here.

But y'know...cybamerc and APF like to beat the same drum no matter how many times fact is brought into this discussion. So maybe it's just a futile effort on my part.

http://www.ydr.com/newsfull/ci_4480797

Oct 12, 2006 — The Noor Mosque in York received two anonymous, anti-Muslim letters within the last three weeks - one threatening the onset of ethnic cleansing, mosque leaders said.

Leading with profanity, one letter states that "violent, immoral Muslims have proved that the Pope was right about your evil religion."

That letter appears to reference Pope Benedict XVI's quotation of a 14th-century Byzantine emperor in a Sept. 12 speech - one that inflamed many Muslims last month because of the strong words he used describing Islam.

The letters, dated Sept. 16 and 18, arrived at the South George Street mosque by mail several days apart, said Zarar Bajwa, president of Ahmadiyya Muslim community in York and Harrisburg.

Handwriting on the two letters is similar to that on a letter received Sept. 28 by Abul Hasan, a local Muslim who teaches physics at Penn State-York.

All three letters call Islam an evil religion or a violent cult.

Both Hasan's letter and one of the mosque's letters advocate firing up the ovens at Auschwitz, the Nazi concentration camp.

"Not a Muslim will be left standing," concludes the Sept. 18 letter sent to Noor Mosque.

Noor Mosque leaders reported the letters to the York city police, the local chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations and the York City Human Relations Commission, said Bajwa, a physician who lives in Orwigsburg, Schuylkill County.

"We just want to emphasize that we are a peaceful and law-abiding group," Bajwa said.

About 80 to 90 Ahmadi families from the York-Harrisburg region attend the Noor Mosque, Bajwa said.

Unlike most Muslims, who consider Muhammad the final prophet, Ahmadis recognize their 19th-century founder, Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, as the Messiah. The sect observes the teachings of the Quran and consider Muhammad a prophet.

The Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission has received at least eight other reports of anti-Muslim incidents this year statewide, including Hasan's letter, and three reports of anti-Arab incidents.

Bajwa said the Muslims who reacted violently to the pope's speech in Germany last month reacted in the wrong way.

"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached," Benedict quoted the emperor.

The pope has since expressed his deep respect for Islam and apologized for the reaction to his remarks, saying the quoted text didn't reflect his own opinions.

Bajwa said the quotation didn't accurately reflect the teachings of Islam.

"The holy Quran teaches there is no force when it comes to religion."

I'm just wondering if APF or ronito were behind this... :lol j/k