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Motorsports |OT| of Endurance Racing, Nascar, Rally, Sportscars, MotoGP, etc
- Thread starter dubc35
- Start date
Indycar doesn't have a Green-White-Checker rule?
Pretty sure that's only NASCAR.
Silver Arrows
Banned
Latest reports from the Indianapolis Star, second hand from RHR, is that Justin Wilson is 'unconscious, and unresponsive'
https://twitter.com/IndyStarSports/status/635593261755842560
Also, a post from the Reddit thread on this subject, so take with a grain of salt, but has said this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/INDYCAR/comments/3i4jlw/send_positive_thoughts_to_justin_wilson_right_now/cudb8ww
https://twitter.com/IndyStarSports/status/635593261755842560
Also, a post from the Reddit thread on this subject, so take with a grain of salt, but has said this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/INDYCAR/comments/3i4jlw/send_positive_thoughts_to_justin_wilson_right_now/cudb8ww
Wax Free Vanilla
Member
Don't those Indy Car noses have 25kg of lead ballast in them, and it hit him in the head?
Silver Arrows
Banned
I'm not sure if this is NSFL or not, so I am going to put it in a link:
http://i.imgur.com/oM8zqYP.png
Essentially, this is a picture of Justin after the crash. You can see damage to the camera on the hoop above him, and most worryingly, Wilson slumped to his left. Alongside this, damage to the left side of the helmet can be seen.
http://i.imgur.com/oM8zqYP.png
Essentially, this is a picture of Justin after the crash. You can see damage to the camera on the hoop above him, and most worryingly, Wilson slumped to his left. Alongside this, damage to the left side of the helmet can be seen.
Big Takeover
Member
I just finished watching my recording of Pocono. I hadn't heard the news, so just reacting now.
Very, very sad situation. Justin is such a lovely guy. Drivers love him, teams love him, fans love him. What a blow to the Indy Car community. Terrible.
Very, very sad situation. Justin is such a lovely guy. Drivers love him, teams love him, fans love him. What a blow to the Indy Car community. Terrible.
Silver Arrows
Banned
It doesn't look good, honestly. I fear it'll be another Bianchi incident.
It seems that Justin was kind of conscious when he was lifted, with his hand over the eye and forehead. Maybe it's an induced coma to reduce the cerebral activity due internal damage. His helmet seemed intact, so it was not like Massa's accident back in 2009, when the helmet partially collapsed. Let's pray for the best.
Psychotext
Member
Yeah. Goddamn that's depressing.
http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/24/justin-wilson-dies-at-age-37/
http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/24/justin-wilson-dies-at-age-37/
Big Takeover
Member
So very sad. What a loss.
NihonTiger90
Member
Big Takeover
Member
The tracks aren't a problem. You can package the aero and boost configs to get whatever racing speed/style you want. They had a good package for Pocono this year. Exciting but not too crazy. Perhaps a little too knife edge, but not bad.
Races being on or off the schedule is about money, nothing more.
Races being on or off the schedule is about money, nothing more.
RIP Justin, another sad loss to the motorsport community.
I don't want to sour the situation with this, but it raises the question of closed cockpits and I've seen many people discuss it already. Where does GAF stand on this?
Personally it's six of one and half a dozen of the other, the reason we have open cockpits is for ease of exit in case of a fire. Having a closed cockpit is putting the driver at risk of escape if a car is to flip upside down and/or catch fire. Also, another issue is a big one; If closed cockpits are going to deflect debris, where is it going to end up after a collision? What happens if a piece of carbon fibre bounces off a windshield and lands in the grandstand?
I understand that times have changed and 'tradition' should no longer be an excuse to leave things as they are. I agree, something has to be done to protect the driver more. Motorsport is always going to be dangerous and people will always be at risk, but the one area that hasn't had enough thought is protection from head collisions. After Bianchi's incident the point was raised but quickly swept under the carpet, but imagine the consequences if Alonso was struck on the head back at Spa 2012.
It's incredibly sad that we've lost Justin like this but it raises the question of how many more incidents do we need before something is changed?
I don't want to sour the situation with this, but it raises the question of closed cockpits and I've seen many people discuss it already. Where does GAF stand on this?
Personally it's six of one and half a dozen of the other, the reason we have open cockpits is for ease of exit in case of a fire. Having a closed cockpit is putting the driver at risk of escape if a car is to flip upside down and/or catch fire. Also, another issue is a big one; If closed cockpits are going to deflect debris, where is it going to end up after a collision? What happens if a piece of carbon fibre bounces off a windshield and lands in the grandstand?
I understand that times have changed and 'tradition' should no longer be an excuse to leave things as they are. I agree, something has to be done to protect the driver more. Motorsport is always going to be dangerous and people will always be at risk, but the one area that hasn't had enough thought is protection from head collisions. After Bianchi's incident the point was raised but quickly swept under the carpet, but imagine the consequences if Alonso was struck on the head back at Spa 2012.
It's incredibly sad that we've lost Justin like this but it raises the question of how many more incidents do we need before something is changed?
Big Takeover
Member
Well I'm certainly for greater safety. If that's a canopy or some other design, I'd be for that.
The openness of the cockpit adds nothing of value for me. It's been 20+ years since open wheel/cockpit cars were really open where you could see shoulders and elbows, and get a great view of the driver at work. Thankfully, for safety's sake, they did away with that, but the modern cockpit isn't nearly as interesting to watch. Does it really have to be in this day and age anyway? I mean in-car cameras have made the whole thing moot for the TV audience anyway.
Canopy and fire: Really, I think that argument mostly stems from everyone's fear of being trapped in a fire. It's close to being a non-issue, imo. Certainly the lesser of evils. When was the last time you saw an open wheel cockpit being seriously threatened by fire? I can tell you for me it was Simona de Silvestro at Texas, but before that, I can't even remember. It likely would have been Pedro Diniz. Verstappen and Berger before him. Inferno-like fuel fires on track are essentially unheard of anymore. Simona's oil fire incident was heavily compounded by some Three Stooges safety crew work. They'd have to step up their fire suppression game if they enclose the cockpits however. That's easily doable though.
Flipped car on fire? The Roger Williamson days are thankfully long gone. You're going to need the help of the safety crew to get out, canopy or not. It's only a matter of seconds before they get there.
However they would design a canopy, I'm sure it would be in a way that doesn't naturally touch the ground when the car it's upside down. The roll hoop is probably high enough now to provide enough clearance. Perhaps they'd make it even taller. The safety crew would have to clear the canopy.
Of course there would have to be at least three different ways to pop the top so to speak, including mechanically from outside the car. Fighter jets and even things like the Merc SLS use explosive bolts. I'm sure they could be used here too.
All of that said the real questions are...
- How effective can they make a canopy? If it fails as would have been very possible in Justin's case, or in the case of another heavy object like a tire, would it cut enough G's off the strike to significantly improve survivability chances? You mentioned Bianchi, imo nothing would have saved him. If you wedge yourself under the side of a crane, it's going to be dire. They correctly fixed that problem by not having cranes and cars at speed share the track.
- How much is this going to cost, and who is going to pay for it? This is going to be a difficult ask from Indy Car. They're not exactly rolling in money these days.
- How much is it going to change the design of an openwheel car. Does it need to be significantly bigger? Heavier? Is it a complete rethink on the formula?
I think the more practical questions are going to be the more difficult ones to get worked out. The "what ifs" are fairly secondary.
It would be ideal if the canopy was fire proof and the enclosure included an internal source of air that would allow the driver to survive for several minutes until the fire crews got them and put it out.
Does Indy have built in fire suppression systems? I know NASCAR added some recently but they still rely on the driver to activate them.
Does Indy have built in fire suppression systems? I know NASCAR added some recently but they still rely on the driver to activate them.
The problem is that people come with this bunch of crap saying "oh, in case of fire...", "but that's not how things are on open wheel races for one hundred years", "but the canopy would send debris to the stands"...
Damn, WEC is using closed cockpits for years with no issues 'til now. We cannot accept the fact that the head is the only weak spot these cars have, and people are dying because of that. FFS, people didn't wanted to see Senna fighting with Hakkinen and Schumacher? Piquet with a little longer career? Bianchi proving his talent at Ferrari? Henry Surtees going bigger? Dan Wheldon, Maria de Villota...?
If closed cockpits presents new issues to solve, well, work on it! Isn't it better than just accept that people can and will die?
Damn, WEC is using closed cockpits for years with no issues 'til now. We cannot accept the fact that the head is the only weak spot these cars have, and people are dying because of that. FFS, people didn't wanted to see Senna fighting with Hakkinen and Schumacher? Piquet with a little longer career? Bianchi proving his talent at Ferrari? Henry Surtees going bigger? Dan Wheldon, Maria de Villota...?
If closed cockpits presents new issues to solve, well, work on it! Isn't it better than just accept that people can and will die?
Big Takeover
Member
Yeah, that wouldn't work. If fire breached the cockpit, pumping oxygen in there would turn it into a pizza oven. See Apollo 1. Not good.
They do, yeah, but I'm not 100% sure any of it goes to the cockpit. I think it's mostly aimed at the engine/fuelcell. NASCAR I know has it inside the car too.
@DD Pretty much.
scorcher59
Member
If canopys can help racing become safer there shouldn't be any reason to go against it, other than the retrograde fear of some people that "that is not F1" or "that is not openwheel racing"
Not pure oxygen, just air, but air that isn't super heated and full of the burning stuff outside the pod. I was just trying to think of something to allow the canopy/pod system to work in case of fire, since that seems to be the big detraction for some.
Silver Arrows
Banned
Pretty much. Only other solution I could think of that doesn't involve a cockpit would basically be struts or something connected to that bit they take out of the car when they leave it at the end of the race, that surround the head. Something like a canopy frame but without the canopy.
Crappy paint work (while I'm at work :/):
Obviously not quite as snug as that, but I think something like that could work without being to the detriment of the sport (or the overall appearance of the cars). At least, not as detrimental as something like the change in sound with the V6s has apparently been.
Big Takeover
Member
Charlie offers some other ideas they've been looking at: (rehost/post of Mastah's link)
http://www.racer.com/f1/item/120696-whiting-protected-cockpits-will-happen
There are other openwheel series here in the States, like supermodifieds (is that a badass car or what?) that use kind of a windowsless cage. I think they use other designs that are more oval like your drawing too.
Perhaps a bit lowbrow for F1 however. Of course that won't stop a smaller piece like a spring, but it would stop other things. Maybe it would be best if they conceded they can't stop everything, but at least they'll stop something. Short term at least. Charlie says as much in the link.
http://www.racer.com/f1/item/120696-whiting-protected-cockpits-will-happen
There are other openwheel series here in the States, like supermodifieds (is that a badass car or what?) that use kind of a windowsless cage. I think they use other designs that are more oval like your drawing too.
Perhaps a bit lowbrow for F1 however. Of course that won't stop a smaller piece like a spring, but it would stop other things. Maybe it would be best if they conceded they can't stop everything, but at least they'll stop something. Short term at least. Charlie says as much in the link.
I'm really not sure why they hadn't thought of it earlier. Hell, I'm sure I even had the idea when Bianchi had his accident. It's pretty obvious the solution, use a canopy-like solution without using glass so the driver's heads are in the open.
Plus, we'd see some really cool ideas that would surely include some aero advantages, too. And I don't think that picture of the Merc posted in the F1 thread looks all that bad.
And yeah, that supermodified is sick as hell, too. Now I just need to wait for them to be incorporated into GSC
Plus, we'd see some really cool ideas that would surely include some aero advantages, too. And I don't think that picture of the Merc posted in the F1 thread looks all that bad.
And yeah, that supermodified is sick as hell, too. Now I just need to wait for them to be incorporated into GSC
The Mercedes 'Halo' approach seems to be the most effective currently. The only concerns this will raise are driver visibility (and being trapped if upside-down, of course), and it's not going to stop small pieces of carbon fibre hitting the driver at eye level. I think the main purpose is to simply prevent heavy impacts to the driver's head.
Cool stop motion video of the last Stock Car race by Red Bull: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvAA_pGdWhQ
Well, 200.000 fine for Audi, they lost 62 points from that race and Ullrich is banned from pits and radio comms until the end of the season.
Big Takeover
Member
Sorry, meant to respond to this. Yeah, "piped in" air is fairly common in a few series including NASCAR. It's mainly used for AC. I'm sure you've seen guys with big tubes coming off the top of their helmets. Should work fine.
Big Takeover
Member
Double points, what a crock of shit.
There's an amusing irony that I guy I used to follow on Twitter who made a big deal a few years ago about 'defecting' from being an F1 fan to an IndyCar fan because he was sick of gimmicks in F1 like DRS and double points is now actively defending IndyCar's use of double points after this race.
Psychotext
Member
Ugh god. Horrible.
RIP for those guys, fuck that would suck
I'm still going to watch Indy, because the timing of the races means it's really easy for me to watch almost every race live, and I find the racing to be the best of any series I follow at the moment. Double points sucks, but JPM also won Indy, the other double point race. If he had been just a bit better at the three tracks he finished worse than 10th he would have won.
I'm still going to watch Indy, because the timing of the races means it's really easy for me to watch almost every race live, and I find the racing to be the best of any series I follow at the moment. Double points sucks, but JPM also won Indy, the other double point race. If he had been just a bit better at the three tracks he finished worse than 10th he would have won.