My Beef with Summer Lesson

This game seems incredibly innocent. Sure, there is an element of sexualization but there is nothing wrong with that. I don't get the outrage here.

That's because you read the thread title and maybe one sentence of the OP before replying. Read the whole post, it's incredibly well thought out and it addresses all of the easy arguments they knew would be coming (because they never change).
 
Oh, I know what you mean, it's only the "I'm glad it's not being localized" part that's weird to me. I probably wouldn't introduce someone to VR with Summer Lesson either, but it being available for purchase in my region doesn't change that.

I didn't communicate that point very well. My concern for a launch window localization was this game being in the forefront of PSVR marketing in the west. I'm glad that we're getting commercials showing Star Wars, Batman and stuff like that instead of Summer Lesson. I don't really have a problem with it being localized, I'm just glad it's not one of the big launch titles over here. I'm all for broad diversity in software for VR though.
 
I imagine the upcoming English Asia version is going to become the next DOAX3, the game to import if you want to support free speech in gaming, or something like that. :/
 
I didn't communicate that point very well. My concern for a launch window localization was this game being in the forefront of PSVR marketing in the west. I'm glad that we're getting commercials showing Star Wars, Batman and stuff like that instead of Summer Lesson. I don't really have a problem with it being localized, I'm just glad it's not one of the big launch titles over here. I'm all for broad diversity in software for VR though.

it never would have been at the forefront tho.

the only reason we know about it is because we are enthusiasts.
 
To ogle or not to ogle is at the discretion of the player. That's basically the point of VR.

This doesn't look like my cup of tea at all, but if people are welcoming it, then I'd guess it's because it represents a new kind of gameplay experience.

Read the whole post, it's incredibly well thought out

It basically amounts to 'I bet some weirdos are going to get off on this', and yes, they will.
 
I didn't communicate that point very well. My concern for a launch window localization was this game being in the forefront of PSVR marketing in the west. I'm glad that we're getting commercials showing Star Wars, Batman and stuff like that instead of Summer Lesson. I don't really have a problem with it being localized, I'm just glad it's not one of the big launch titles over here. I'm all for broad diversity in software for VR though.

Ah, gotcha, that makes sense, yeah.

It is. Having experienced JAVs in VR is horrible.

Though on PC you could easily mod out that in games, just not in Videos.

For whatever reason just the thought of that is hilarious to me. VR porn? Of course, makes sense. Pixelated VR porn? Just thinking about it makes me embarrassed.
 
For whatever reason just the thought of that is hilarious to me. VR porn? Of course, makes sense. Pixelated VR porn? Just thinking about it makes me embarrassed.

The thing is, that actually the "story" or settings of japanse VR porn is far more interesting than western porn now. But the censorship kinda destroys that.
 
Ah, gotcha, that makes sense, yeah.



For whatever reason just the thought of that is hilarious to me. VR porn? Of course, makes sense. Pixelated VR porn? Just thinking about it makes me embarrassed.

hey man pixels are someones fetish...probably...somehow
 
Definitely agree with the OP.

By not being explicitly sexual, the game rather aims to reward an unethical behavior. It's basically a game about pretending to be decent person, while you're secretly just using them.

It's the dishonesty, and the fact that you're enabled in it by saying it's just a game, that makes me uneasy.

I'm not suggesting anything happen, I just also agree that this warrants a discussion on what we as consumers want/dont want as much.

I agree with the OPv and this post.

I'll just add in that if it's agreed that it's a girlfriend simulator(?), why choose such a creepy scenario? I'd feel a lot less uneasy about the game if it took place, for example, in a bar during an actual fucking date than underlining it with a tutor scenario.

Also, in the game, are you playing an avatar of someone else who is a peer (who has a name etc), or are you -the actual player- supposed to be the one tutoring her? If it's the latter, it just got like 10x creepier.
 
so, a question I'd like to see discussed about morality:
Say an individual is consuming media that causes indirect harm to others by existing (let's go with virtual, fictional pedophilia). However, this individual themselves does not cause any harm to anybody due to consuming this media to any extent. Would you find that moral, or immoral? Actively harmful or not?
 
I think the game looks pretty tame and make me think of 3DS love plus. I'm european, that's maybe why I don't share OP point of view because of dfferent culture. We consider violence and gore to be wayyy worse than an cute AI simulating a friendly/romantic dialog.

I'll watch a show like The Walking Dead which has no problem showing the most intense gore, but shies away from showing any sort of nudity. Shows like Spartacus on other hand had were happy to show both graphic sex and violence, and I think that's generally a healthier approach.

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I agree with the OPv and this post.

I'll just add in that if it's agreed that it's a girlfriend simulator(?), why choose such a creepy scenario? I'd feel a lot less uneasy about the game if it took place, for example, in a bar during an actual fucking date than underlining it with a tutor scenario.

Also, in the game, are you playing an avatar of someone else who is a peer (who has a name etc), or are you -the actual player- supposed to be the one tutoring her? If it's the latter, it just got like 10x creepier.

An 20 year old tutor teaching a 16-18 year old is creepy?

Note I dont know what the actual age of the teenager is, but tutor-san (i'm calling him that ) has no age.

You say that like western porn was somehow renowned for it's innovative settings or riveting stories.

the only thing western porn has going for it are those parody costumes for marvel/DC/cartoon pornos.
 
VR characters are going to be a touchy subject for awhile I think. Correct me if I'm wrong but there's not a single female character in the Batman VR game is there? I'm going to assume they avoided that for this exact reason.

Some players are always going to push the bounds of what the creator meant for them to do, and VR is just going to make that much more apparent and creepy. The gaming community is just going to have to come to terms with this I think, and it's going to take some time.
 
I don't plan to get PSVR or this game, but I do see the appeal. OP mentioned a more blatant sexual game would be fine but uh... this sort of thing is a fantasy for a lot of people. I don't see any harm in letting people indulge safely in VR without actually interacting with a teen girl.

TBH, I hope at some point VR pedophilia simulators happen so pedophiles can use that instead of targeting real kids.
 
To ogle or not to ogle is at the discretion of the player. That's basically the point of VR.

This doesn't look like my cup of tea at all, but if people are welcoming it, then I'd guess it's because it represents a new kind of gameplay experience.

I find the polarizing opinions people have on this game really interesting. I found the way she flirts with you to be pretty uncomfortable, but her reactions to questions were fascinating (dejected, cheerful, indifferent). My wife's Japanese is pretty decent so she was doing translating for me. She found it interesting from a virtual interaction standpoint as did I.

If you find it creepy that's fine and I understand that. How creepy it is ultimately depends on who is playing and how they play it. Like most media, how you interpret it is entirely subjective. No one is right or wrong (except for people calling it a rape simulator). I've seen the way some people play it and frankly...it's unsettling. That doesn't mean that there isn't a large subset of people who heard that Summer Lesson had some of the best animations and interactions of any VR launch game and thought it sounded awesome.

I guess what I'm saying is don't lump everyone together. Let people have their opinions and don't call them idiots for saying they find something creepy. At the same time, there are people who actually bought this because it carried a Cero B and not a Cero D.
 
OP seems judgmental as fuck. Also your hypothetical doesn't make any sense at all. Who the hell would hire a 16 year old girl for an office job? One would think the only type of job a 16 year old could get is working after school at a fast food place. Did she drop out of school? In this hypothetical, I think the girl has bigger problems than a boss looking at her. She should go back to school and finish her education! What, she's not academically gifted? Well, then she should hire a tutor and get some summer lessons, that would help her succeed in school!
 
Okay, you seem very passionate about pointing out how wrong and bad this is for society, but I'm wondering how consistent this perspective is across cultural lines. Do you specifically see this as a problem for Japan where there should be more attention and focus on it because of how backward you feel their social standards are, or is it something you are interested in discussing for all entertainment?

For example, do you not find it a little creepy that Bioshock Infinite puts the player in the role of a father figure of a young teenage girl, and spends much of the narrative making the girl increasingly sexy as she becomes more confident of who she is and becoming a woman? Is it necessary to evolve her design into one where she wears a low cut dress, especially when the game is in first person and you spend much of the game watching her run forward before turning around and looking at you with inquisitive eyes? As an adult playing such a game, that has to be at least a little weird right?

On the subject of improper relationships in positions of authority, how do you feel about the relationship aspects of Mass Effect and Dragon Age? In these games you are a commander with a team under your command. These include men and women who can be courted, and in some cases pressured, into having a sexual relationship with you. In the case of Mass Effect 2, the character of Jack in particular can be seen as troubling, because it introduces a character who is shown as a victim of child abuse and trafficking, and even after being "saved" by the hero, she exists as a potential conquest for a player who likes "that type of girl".

I think this sort of thing exists everywhere in entertainment in varying degrees, and it is the responsibility of the player to assess how okay they are with it. But to have an honest discussion about such things, it'll require people to actually want to talk about what is problematic and why it is. Things aren't made in a vacuum. For example, I don't think violent games make people do violent things, but they are very clearly an indication that people enjoy violent fantasies at the very least. This is something we can talk about without going scorched earth about, and we can recognize that simulating violent acts can be a form of stress release. But somehow when it comes to talking about sexual stuff, all form of communication seems to break down. It's either right or wrong. You're either on one side or the other. It becomes about labeling people who take a stance instead of actually talking about it. Why do you think that's so?

This is probably the best summation of my feelings on the subject.
 
Now I'm curious, how is it different from regular porn, aside from the obvious viewing angles?

You have an actual setting in that. Like you are the teenager, hiding in the closet where japanese girls are changing or you are in the locker room spying on them, when they find you and teaste you.

Most western VR porn is just that you are lying in bed and then they come.
 
"Being a voyeur to a teenage girl is disturbing."

^
There's nothing sexually conservative about that thought.

When it's a fake girl made up of polygons, there absolutely is.

I literally teach kids, none of this even REMOTELY resembles a teaching environment whatsoever.

Do you teach kids in Japan?

Edit: Just to make it clear, I'm not being serious with that last question. I agree that the appeal of this game is absolutely NOT the tutoring aspect. However, that isn't to say the sexual aspect is the main appeal either, or at least is the only way to enjoy it. As I've said before, this is a fascinating bit of technology and a great step in the right direction for social interaction simulators. If it was flat out porn, we'd be having a different discussion.
 
VR characters are going to be a touchy subject for awhile I think. Correct me if I'm wrong but there's not a single female character in the Batman VR game is there? I'm going to assume they avoided that for this exact reason.

This. It seems like if game creators were to have any characters you can look at in the game, it would be the same situation as this.
Now the difference is, the creators can choose to have the character completely ignore what you are doing, breaking the immersion of the game, or he/she can choose to do basically the same thing as the girl in Summer Lesson, shooing you in disgust.
( And he/she cannot possibly run away from you if they're an essential character, so you can do whatever you want with no in-game consequences. )

Let's say an open world game is recreated in VR. Now you have completely innocent pedestrians walking around you, including children. Now, no matter what the design of the game is, the developers can't stop you if you decide to ogle at the pedstrians, pushing yourself very close and trying to touch them.
What the developers have merely done is implemented VR camera control, but you are the one who choose how to use the camera.
In this game, no matter what the genre of the game is, you can turn it into a pervert simulator simply due to it having freeform VR camera controls.
 
This is probably the best summation of my feelings on the subject.

Hmmm. Missed that post earlier, but yes it is good. These arguments boil into A is totally okay and B is totally not okay, when it usually is more accurate that both are dubious but have some room to be explored. That's not to suggest false equivalency is the way to go, but it is to suggest that the issues are messy and dishonest discourse does us no favors.
 
Fiction, (especially this sort of fiction), is not something that should be glorified, creators are free to make whatever they want, but by god devs are absolutely not free from harsh criticism for the type of fiction they decide to make. The only way a game like this would be justifiable, would be if it had some hard candy type of twist instead of normalizing this sort of shit.

Criticism of criticism is also valid, and some of the criticism seems along the lines of "this shouldn't exist" or at the very least shouldn't be at the forefront of new technology. That's even before we get into the gross misrepresentation of what the product actually is, or at least the interpretations of such.

And I mean no offense when I say you're starting to come across as really unhinged in this thread. Maybe take a step back and calm down.

Read the whole post, it's incredibly well thought out and it addresses all of the easy arguments they knew would be coming (because they never change).

It's also filled with misinformation about the game itself.
 
I agree with the OPv and this post.

I'll just add in that if it's agreed that it's a girlfriend simulator(?), why choose such a creepy scenario? I'd feel a lot less uneasy about the game if it took place, for example, in a bar during an actual fucking date than underlining it with a tutor scenario.

Also, in the game, are you playing an avatar of someone else who is a peer (who has a name etc), or are you -the actual player- supposed to be the one tutoring her? If it's the latter, it just got like 10x creepier.

It's just the anime scenario they're going for, but my understanding, judging from the upcoming content they've been showing, is that the focus is on the relationship being built with that girl, not exactly on the tutoring side. The tutoring was just the way they chose for them to meet, and will build on top of that.

They could just add different characters in the same room and same narrative, but I'm guessing they'll go with different stuff for the new characters, if they ever add them. Though it'll most likely continue using the tutoring thing, simply because of the name. If it was just a spiritual sucessor instead of DLC, then we'd most likely get completely different scenarios for each new character.

Unless the idea is to make it a harem anime kind of thing, and you're supposed to be the same person talking to all of the girls and boys they add. That makes a lot of sense, too.

You have an actual setting in that. Like you are the teenager, hiding in the closet where japanese girls are changing or you are in the locker room spying on them, when they find you and teaste you.

Most western VR porn is just that you are lying in bed and then they come.

That's actually really smart. Recreating fetish porn tropes in first person instead of just being regular POV porn with a headset.
 
That's a boring non-argument. Why is so much of the knee-jerk reaction to this suggesting that criticism = censorship? They're free to make the game, I'm free to say it's creepy as shit and appeals to the worst in people. It's simulating ogling a young girl who doesn't have the choice not to be ogled.
Bringing something like choice up is always weird to me. What about those ton of npc characters that have no choice but to be murdered by the player?
 
Who brings beef to a sausage party?

Everything about this game told you what it was created for and whom. To pretend it was something deeper was a waste of your time and money.

As soon as I saw this I renmbered Love Plus DS titles created for lonely Japanese guys.

I wish someone would create a really serious dating & flirting sim without pretending it is some other thing.

This game is just touch on a slice of life fantasy role you see in Manga and animé

What would it be like to teach a cute girl? <= plot and setting
 
So you're saying you're fine with games that feature sex with underage characters?

As far as existing goes, yes. They're absolutely disgusting, but they aren't real. If anything, they may be beneficial to the well-being of ACTUAL victims, though it's a touchy field to get any kind of real research going (but people are definitely trying).

I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread though.
 
I have flashbacks to the release of Mortal Kombat and Carmageddon etc.

In ten years we can point and laugh at this thread because of all the depraved VR shit that will be on the market then. "Look, people were worried about Summer Lesson, can you believe that?!"
 
I just wish Harada adds a dude. There is a market out there that really isn't getting attention based off of the various social media stuff I frequent, a lot of peeps like their pretty boys
 
Like most media, how you interpret it is entirely subjective.

Precisely. The game is what you make of it, and from what I've seen it doesn't go out of its way to promote anything unwholesome, or force it on the player.

Like I said, it's not a game which interests me (although if I had PSVR I'd certainly try it), but I give Namco the nod for trying something new and putting out a polished experience as always.
 
I actually thought this game was about peer tutoring, i.e. the tutor the protagonist takes on is another student that is slightly older and further along in school. I thought the point of the game was to play into this trope-y setting (it's been used in LNs, VNs, Western teen novels even) while flirting and develop a more "first teenage crush" type setting. When I saw the actual gameplay it looked just like that, so I was kinda whatever about it. No sex, some light flirting and relationship building, and the school systems. Seems cute.

I'm not naive enough to think older people aren't gonna be creeps and leer, but that's just the idea I had of the game from my perspective. I also get the game is Japanese and age is never stated, so that's a bit off putting. Talking about stuff like that and VR makes sense because it's new and bit odd, but calling the game a grooming or rape sim seems pretty wild.
 
I have a problem with the assumption that showing photos from the pool is... sexual in nature? Isn't that just your presumption, it certainly isn't for me.
 
Besada posted info that shows that itwould actually encourage bad behavior.
I've read the whole article posted there and am currently reading few of the studies that it refers to, and it is pretty safe to say that it isn't quite as clear cut as that, which Besada also mentioned. I've yet to also find any mention of fictive works and such, opposed to actual child porn, beside the US legislative history where they were temporarily included in 1996
expanded to include virtual images of children and images that appear to be of a minor.
and then removed in 2002
Virtual images ruled not to be pornography; ‘appear to be a minor’ ruled to be too broad.
 
I think Summer Lesson is pretty tame and boring. Not sure why it warrants such an elaborate discussion, but hey I guess that's how it is nowadays.
 
I just wish Harada adds a dude. There is a market out there that really isn't getting attention based off of the various social media stuff I frequent, a lot of peeps like their pretty boys

I think I remember reading that if people wanted it, and Summer Lesson was succesfull enough, that they may do that, which would be awesome. It would also do well for the people who have some issue (that I don't agree with) what limits the game can do, and expand that.

Y'know what would be super cool if, to focus more on the teaching elements, they had DLC using tekken characters in a teaching enviornment, considering the wide variety of languages the characters speak, Lili for French, Shaheen for Arabic, Hworang for Korean, Eddy for Portugese, Dragunov for Russian, and a lot more on top of that. Shit could be wild.
 
I have a problem with the assumption that showing photos from the pool is... sexual in nature? Isn't that just your presumption, it certainly isn't for me.

It kind of is, but the game subverts it in a way, kind of? Or maybe they don't think of it as sexually as I did? I don't know.

To me, the setup was pretty much: Girl tries to show you a picture she took at the pool, without thinking too much about it. Game expects players to look at it expecting anime tiddies. Turns out you can't see shit in the photograph.

I think I remember reading that if people wanted it, and Summer Lesson was succesfull enough, that they may do that, which would be awesome. It would also do well for the people who have some issue (that I don't agree with) what limits the game can do, and expand that.

Y'know what would be super cool if, to focus more on the teaching elements, they had DLC using tekken characters in a teaching enviornment, considering the wide variety of languages the characters speak, Lili for French, Shaheen for Arabic, Hworang for Korean, Eddy for Portugese, Dragunov for Russian, and a lot more on top of that. Shit could be wild.

VR for actually learning languages would be pretty amazing. But the lack of tablet controllers in order to properly learn writing could be an issue. Sure, it's still interesting even without writing, but I find it harder to believe that they'd put the work into making something to actually teach you an entire language without caring about writing. Pretty major thing to ignore if they're taking it seriously.
 
My whole thought process of watching someone play this game was: if there would be actual sex involved it wouldn't be as creepy as it is now. Or even if you were actually tutoring her somehow and that would be the game.
But no, the game is to get very close with this teenage girl and care about her personal day-to-day activities, problems and interests while she's subtly flirting with you.

It probably doesn't help that I'm actually tutoring, but it's just extremely off-putting to me.
Thank you for making this thread and expressing yourself so well, because I couldn't.

edit: How many posts are in here saying "it's actually tame" when the whole thread isn't really about sex anyway?
 
Just off the top of my head, why not a game where you meet an alien, and you have to figure out how to communicate with the creature without language, slowly learning about its species and culture and history through makeshift modes of communication.
Reading that Tentacle Hentai is all that came to my mind........
 
so, a question I'd like to see discussed about morality:
Say an individual is consuming media that causes indirect harm to others by existing (let's go with virtual, fictional pedophilia). However, this individual themselves does not cause any harm to anybody due to consuming this media to any extent. Would you find that moral, or immoral? Actively harmful or not?

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I would love an astute explanation about your example, and maybe a few other similar examples.
 
When I look at Summer Lesson, of course it's "problematic." For me it goes without saying. You're gawking at a girl, I mean come on.

And having understood that, I'd be the one who'd say "Looks good. I'd play that." Because for me it's an under the shelf amusement (that I don't take all that seriously), and entertainment has its place as an indulgence of our hidden desires.

Entertainment is not a role model for society. Are horror movies about promoting murder? Are crime movies about promoting crime? I think not. And neither is a VR game about gawking at girls a manual for how to relate to women in the real world.
 
It kind of is, but the game subverts it in a way, kind of? Or maybe they don't think of it as sexually as I did? I don't know.

To me, the setup was pretty much: Girl tries to show you a picture she took at the pool, without thinking too much about it. Game expects players to look at it expecting anime tiddies. Turns out you can't see shit in the photograph.

I've read the OP three times now, and I still don't fully understand the argument. I understand that there is a sexual element to say, showing photographs, but that's from the user's perspective. In particular with males, we tend to overestimate when a girl is being 'flirty'.

I'm sure some people are expecting a fantasy, and the setup is, well, y'know definitely a standard trope. But boy, I was always just more interested in the practical application of developing virtual companionship and the therapeutic properties it could have.

She's like the equivalent of a PenPal for me. But I guess there is an issue that she's an algorithm and I don't know if she's designed to be romanced or not.

Edit: is it the fact that you're a tutor, in a position of power? And that it feels taboo?
 
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