You learned about what money is before the "introduction to money" ceremony at your 18th birthday? What backwards ass place do you come from?
'My son spent £3,160 in one game' (A disturbing article by BBC)
- Thread starter MiyazakiHatesKojima
- Start date
You learned about what money is before the "introduction to money" ceremony at your 18th birthday? What backwards ass place do you come from?
JimmyJones
Banned
Lootboxes should be banned.
Damien Crowley
Member
Breakfast at Noon
Member
The phones in our house do not have access to credit cards or shit so my kids have never screwed me on that side and as for consoles I have 2 step purchasing enabled.
brian0057
Banned
> "Loot boxes are wrong. Ban them and punish those greedy fuckers."
> "Hold on. I hate EA and loot boxes as much as the next guy but micro-transactions require voluntary involvement for them to work."
> "Wow, you really love micro-transactions, don't you?"
> "What? No. I'm saying that consumers are just as guilty as the publishers. It takes two to tango, you know."
> "HEY, GUYS. WE HAVE AN APOLOGIST. HE CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT HIS DEAR MTX."
There's nothing quite as exciting as throwing personal responsibility and consumer choice into an incinerator just so we can teach EA a lesson the free market already taught them.
> "Hold on. I hate EA and loot boxes as much as the next guy but micro-transactions require voluntary involvement for them to work."
> "Wow, you really love micro-transactions, don't you?"
> "What? No. I'm saying that consumers are just as guilty as the publishers. It takes two to tango, you know."
> "HEY, GUYS. WE HAVE AN APOLOGIST. HE CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT HIS DEAR MTX."
There's nothing quite as exciting as throwing personal responsibility and consumer choice into an incinerator just so we can teach EA a lesson the free market already taught them.
Nope actually I hate them and avoid them like the plague. I think overwatch is the only game that uses them with what I'd deem an acceptable business model given it's led to free characters, maps and modes for all players and anything else with them I refuse to play.
I just don't have a childish mindset that anything I don't like should be illegal. I have free will, so I use it to check before purchases and avoid games that use them.
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Starlight Lotice
Member
That's a weird analogy to basically say don't spend too much to help a small amount of people. Although like I said, the Government sadly cater to this minority as they have the most voting power. If they wish to add restrictions, it will be because that strong minority have a say in things. (kind of like ResetEra actually)
The kid doesn't but in many cases they use their parents consoles, which do have the Credit Cards on them, and without restriction. It's obviously not locked enough to prevent it from happening due to these stories coming out. The only solution would be to have Parental Controls set at the Factory Settings. Unless that is an inconvenience as well to flick through a few options to turn it off? The fault lies with both sides of course, and a solution is an easy one for both sides as well. Vigilance and Compliance.
I agree with that. Parents should parent. Although I don't really understand why restricting a few things is a bad thing. I understand that people want a choice in whatever they wish to do (even if it is stupidity), but if everything were the wild west, then there wouldn't be laws in the first place.
I do understand where you are coming from even if I slightly disagree, restrictions are not nice things to have and having them systematically for the sake of it is annoying (believe me, I work in a job where they do just this). It's pretty bad that we have a nanny state in the first place, but that's because we have lived under a Government with no back bone and an American Mindset of being sued if they do nothing.
Just remember that people aren't savvy like us. They have to use ANY excuse to say why they did a dumb thing and they should be the victim! XD
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Wolfgang Jr
Banned
You really should have to pass an IQ test to have children.
Starlight Lotice
Member
Both of these hold very true. Usually a combination of both as well.
Although some people do plan on having kids at a young age. You need to be sensible about it if you do plan it at a younger age.
I see loot boxes and such that have random prize, cards, and so on can become very addictive. This can result in gambling issues later in life for children growing up. Remember how people say nicotine, alcohol, and other drugs are gateway to other drugs. Well the same can be applied to these microtransactions as they can be gateway to gambling issues later down the road.
brian0057
Banned
Buying micro-transactions has less to do with substance abuse and more with extreme activities.
Starting with the fact that abusing substances actually affects the brain's chemistry in a way that the hormones naturally produced by the brain don't.
You being stupid enough to blow $1000 on micro-transactions or on the blackjack table has the same effect on the brain as you willingly and voluntarily jumping out of a plane with a parachute knowing full well you can end up as a Jackson Pollock painting.
The only difference being that in one activity you're risking your livelihood and on the other you're risking your... well, your livelihood. And I don't see massive government proposals and public outrage aimed at banning people risking their lives for a "thrill".
DryvBy
Member
Maybe not dump your credit card information on a device to give to your children? I know, that's a wild idea to be parents of your children and all...
Here's why I don't care about these stories: they're outliers. There's not a ton of children doing this. Loot crates are crap and I hate them, same with season passes, but I don't think a Nanny is the way to handle this. If your kid is spending thousands, that's only and you and your child for being stupid.
Here's why I don't care about these stories: they're outliers. There's not a ton of children doing this. Loot crates are crap and I hate them, same with season passes, but I don't think a Nanny is the way to handle this. If your kid is spending thousands, that's only and you and your child for being stupid.
Alebrije
Member
I know this could sound stupid but if you do not provide debit or credit card information on a app store , there is no way you can be charged? because my son plays a lot of game from google store on his cell phone , they are "free" but basically work on crates looting like Clash of Titans.
I check my credit accounts regularly and all its fine but the way those companies can easily charge money worries me.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Or it has to do with psychologically optimised techniques to trick people, especially vulnerable people (you know, like children), into spending and overspending:
zeorhymer
Member
That's a whole different issue. Addiction / escapism is a debilitating disease, but the problem here is that kids are buying stuff without their parents permission. Whether it's lootboxes in a game or buying from Amazon, people are debating who's responsibility is it in on being charged.
Randall365
Member
My take on this is that microtransactions in games are no different to gambling. They should be banned for under 18s and be forced to warn people to buy responsibly.
If a £50 game lets you pay £2,000 for shit on top, then the makers know that they are either exploiting morons, gambling addicts, kids or in 0.00001% of cases, the ultra rich. Fine, but they should go in the same basket as online casinos and drug dealers as far as morality goes.
Sad for the industry IMO, which I thought was heading for legitimacy with movies, music and other art forms
If a £50 game lets you pay £2,000 for shit on top, then the makers know that they are either exploiting morons, gambling addicts, kids or in 0.00001% of cases, the ultra rich. Fine, but they should go in the same basket as online casinos and drug dealers as far as morality goes.
Sad for the industry IMO, which I thought was heading for legitimacy with movies, music and other art forms
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DryvBy
Member
And how do these kids get credit cards? And if it's just vulnerable people, why isn't it way more people except a few outlier kids?
You know what would happen if I spent $3000 of my parents money? I'd have to sell everything I own and pay it back, then I'd be grounded until I left the house. Guess what I never did as a kid. But never would have the chance to because my parents didn't dump their CC info online.
DryvBy
Member
I have a password setup on checkout that requires my password that's too impossible to guess (I don't even know it). If you password your crap, you can do it. But also you don't have to have your CC info stored either. DM me if you want some help with all this so I won't fill this thread up.
Arkage
Banned
The scope and reach of the problem is far beyond EA. The free market hasn't done shit to mitigate F2P horror stories. And there's a reason why gambling is regulated and not up to the free market to determine its ethical norms.
Aintitcool
Banned
When they make ai's that can identify depression and mix it with advertising for things. Publishers will be targeting whales more. Soon a game will ask how much is in your bank before displaying the prices of digital goods.
I think this might already be in place for some stores where a small purchase opens more products to buy more expensive like in star citizen.
EDIT: They can probably make bots that can estimate your wealth at a time just by scanning your social media.
Imagine posting something on facebook like "I just got a raise", "Bought my house" "Taxes came in". And suddenly a game store you once bought a skin on shows more premium expensive skins, game sales exclusive to you open up for a game you browsed a couple times ect.
This can go really deep if unregulated.
I think this might already be in place for some stores where a small purchase opens more products to buy more expensive like in star citizen.
EDIT: They can probably make bots that can estimate your wealth at a time just by scanning your social media.
Imagine posting something on facebook like "I just got a raise", "Bought my house" "Taxes came in". And suddenly a game store you once bought a skin on shows more premium expensive skins, game sales exclusive to you open up for a game you browsed a couple times ect.
This can go really deep if unregulated.
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No minority of people has voting power. Voting power is literally about what side has the majority. By definition a minority of people can't change things via vote.
So we need restrictions because parents are too lazy/dumb to spend 30 seconds putting parental controls on and give their kids access to a CC with no password? If parents are giving unmonitored access to machines with CC info to kids then restrictions will literally do nothing to the same people. Lootbox games are 18+? Cool well the kid can now just buy the 18+ game online the exact same way? Not to mention most parents don't give a rats ass about an 18+ rating as you'll see if you've ever played a popular console game that's 18+ with mic support.
Restrictions are a bad things because people like me shouldn't be dealing with extra inconvenience because of idiots. Idiot proofing the world doesn't improve anything. It just leads to the attitudes we're seeing that are causing issues like this I.E. Wilful ignorance and the perception that all fuckups are someone else's fault unless they specifically warned you of everything you could possibly screw up every step of the way.
It's not just an american thing. I'm irish and we deal with it too. For example, we brought in a sugar tax last year. Now coke is more expensive, and many other soft drinks have changed their recipes to use artificial sweeteners and don't taste half as good. So in essence I'm paying more for coke, and having other drinks I like taste worse, because some other fat fucks can't have a bit of self control. It's absolutely disgusting to me. Politics should NEVER be about catering to the lowest common denominator. It's practically a meme at this point, but the movie "Idiocracy" seems more and more realistic every year that goes by. I hate this culture of everyone being a victim and nobody having the balls to say "No, this is your fault. You fucked up, and you can deal with the consequences".
You don't need to be "savvy". It's not 2003 anymore. Computers aren't young people stuff anymore. I take the bus to and from work each day, and I see more elderly people glued to their phone than young people, if only because they're less likely to travel with friends. There's no more "part of a different generation" or any of that crap. This is normal, everyday stuff and has been for well over a decade at this point. Literally the only skill needed is the ability to open a web browser, which usually defaults to google. From there people can type whatever they want and have all the information in the world available to them. If they fail to do that, well then they've failed in their responsibility as a consumer. I imagine it's different in the states, but our sale of goods act includes consumer responsibilities here, Caveat emptor being one of them. It means buyer beware, and essentially protects businesses from people who are idiots and expect stupid things from products they buy.
People need to stop being rewarded for being idiots. It's as simple as that.
Starlight Lotice
Member
You'd think that a majority has a say but it's never been in the case in the UK. Our Pension is f**ked because the older generation panicked about their own pension and voted Conservatives to keep their state pension safe. That is a recent example of how a minority have such power. Screwing you and me over in the process.
That goes against your tech savvy argument though. I am sure spending 30 seconds turning it off is no problem and teaches parents to use it by being either forcing them to turn it off or being too lazy to do so. It is a win-win.
We shouldn't cater to idiots but it seems to be common that we do. Education is sorely needed these days on stuff like technology. It isn't 2003 but it seems that 2019 hasn't improved how people learn new things. Older people tend to learn. The middle aged people don't it seems.
I understand you don't like restrictions but laws are also restrictions that we abide to, so tgere is always some restriction on us peons.
100% agree on the Sugar Tax. Self restraint should be what people should try to strive for. (And exercise)
We need village idiots though to laugh atm they have some use.
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FUBARx89
Member
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Note to self: FUBARx89 does not like sarcastic hyperbole.
I was joking, as in, there's no induction to money at 18. Being under 18 doesn't absolve someone of all sense, and people need to realise that
The problem is why have 11 year old access to credit cards or a paypal account?. But yes it is always easier to blame the evil developer who also constantly updating the games with new stories, mechanics, abilities etc. than the terrible Darwin Parents.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Because parents may not be aware of the connection and falsly assume that the game is a safe environment. The video demonstrates that developers deliberately use manipulative tactics to make people overspend and to not think about their spending habits. It is not unfair to put blame on them for what they consciously decide to target in their development practices. Of course this is something that will not happen to parents who are well-aware of the technological background of games and who play games themselves. Yes, there are techniques available to prevent such situations. But this is besides the point.
Developers intentionally produce unsafe products that are targeted at making vulnerable people overspend. This is not the parent's fault, it is the developer's (and, in some cases, publisher's) fault.
You do not need to be technical aware of anything to not allow 11 year old putting their parents credit card into the system. It is not that hard to give your children NO ACCESS to your bank account.
And of course they use these tactics that is what all commercial products do in some form. Many games that are not that successful for example build the new stages that you need these new announced characters to proceed but most of the good ones do not do this at all. Especially established games have no so much content that you get very very far to even see possible paywalls. You can play for weeks or even months before that.
How about we are going back to parenting our kids again? It is insane that people want to not blame parents for this at all. Do these kids also fall for these street games every time they see one?
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FUBARx89
Member
Yeah I changed it just after posting it ha. Bit dense til around midday really. My bad.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
You need to be technically aware to consider the possibility that something that you do on the phone in one application (e.g. the store application) affects the usage of another application (in this instance the game). It may seem trivial to you and it is of course trivial to all people around here, but I am pretty certain that a lot of things in terms of trains would be considered trivial by train enthusiasts that we would not be aware of right away.
Tell me how Super Mario Odyssey (just as one example of thousands of games, new and old) encourages excessive overspending.
You can make a non-predatory commercial product. If you decide to make a predatory one, do not be surprised if people criticise you for that.
Mario Odyssey is a Fullprice product. This is not what we are talking about. thee are f2p play games. When mario was released it is basically done. These games gets updated every week or every 2nd week with new raids, quests, sotry missions etc.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
What do you suspect Fifa (for instance) costs? Also, if you watched the video, you would be aware that these content updates are one significant step towards predatory monetarisation techniques.
I agree with Fifa but even here it is just a mode and you do not need to spend anything.. It is just a card collecting game like the Panini sticker album back as we were kids.
And I already told you that most famous ones do not do this with content updates. When you play games like one piece, etc you do not need these new characters to beat new content. They are always stronger of course but they are not needed it you actually play the game.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
I am not talking about whether something is possible to beat with or without paying, this is of no relevance here (of course, it can be relevant to the effectiveness of the monetisation). In most cases, even in F2P games, technically, you can complete the full game without paying money. You just need a buttload of time and self-constraint.
Yu also need a lot of time to beat a game like Final Fatasy or Persona. It is because there is tons of content.. Take Brave Exvius for example the story mode alone will take you 200+ hours right now. Not because you need to rind but because there is so much content. Theny ou have RAIDS, special side stories etc. One piece has also 50-100 hours of story content. These games that are long runing have HUGE amount of content you do not need to grind at all.
In fact they give you so much items, skills, characters or level up items that it becomes pretty easy to play through the story stuff.
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Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Have fun unlocking a top team in Fifa Ultimate Team. Without grinding.
Angry_Megalodon
Member
What is truly disturbing is that in 2019 children have free pass to parents' money. This is what happens when governments want to play parenthood and remove authority from families.
Those ingame P2W mechanics suck, but I'm going to blame those parents here in most cases. Why give your kid a tablet or a phone that's connected to your CC?
The kids have access to my old Wii U, 3DS and X360, the family PC and a few mobile devices with an account specially made for them, but they aren't allowed on my PC or phone that has access to my Paypal and stuff.
The kids have access to my old Wii U, 3DS and X360, the family PC and a few mobile devices with an account specially made for them, but they aren't allowed on my PC or phone that has access to my Paypal and stuff.
PhillMeCream
Member
Well with Amazon you can return the items back and get your money back
Advertising in general is supposed to make people buy more products and not think about overspending (Having worked in mobile phone sales previously, I can tell you that most customers buying the most expensive phones used them as social media machines and could get something for 10% of the cost that would meet all of their needs. Should advertising phones be illegal because it causes that? ) People don't need to be babied to not overspend. They need to act like goddamn adults, and it's disgraceful that people are pushing against this idea.
There's nothing wrong with a company marketing their products and making people want to buy. At the end of the day, either the buyer is 18+ and using their own money, or has had their ability to make these purchases approved by someone 18+ with a credit or debit card. It's their responsibility. And that's not to say not to help those that are genuinely vulnerable. But that's a local services issue and not a gaming one. Local governments and councils are the ones that need to ensure services are in place for these people to help them live in todays world, instead of changing the world to suit a tiny percentage of people.
That's not besides the point at all. Should oven manufacturers be spending millions on R&D to develop dishes that don't heat up with the food inside them to prevent people getting burns? No, because there's a solution: Oven gloves. If someone complains about an oven being hot to touch, you call them a fucking idiot and point to oven gloves. This is the same. There is a problem. There is a solution to a problem. Saying "that solution doesn't count because it involves me actually doing something" isn't making a point. It's being lazy.
Kids can't overspend if parents don't give them free access to their bank account. Seriously, you don't hand a fucking 10 year old car keys and then blame ford when he totals your car. The solution to ignorance is education, not changing things so that people can continue to be ignorant with no consequence
Have fun doing the same with sticker albums around the world cup with secial gold stickers etc. You can easily spent thousands of dollar on it and still not get it.
Randall365
Member
The sticker album analogy does not work - every sticker album I ever had allowed you to send away for specific stickers you need in order to complete a collection. Does EA allow you to purchase the best Ultimate Player card for a very small price?
KungFucius
King Snowflake
I find it bizarre that people defend this shit at any level. It is predatory garbage. Manipulating people to part with money is the new norm that replaces providing a good enough product that they both want and will enjoy. It's basically just taking candy from babies. That used to be considered a bad thing, now it is considered innovation.
Phunkydiabetic
Banned
As far as I can tell no one is defending it. It's just that there are safeguards against your children (even one who is an adult with the mind of a 7 year old) from getting at these "predatory" practices. They did nothing to stop it. They left their credit card freely linked to the account the son was on. Ultimately it's on them. They should've paid attention. They should've known the risks, it's on THEM to understand it all.
On my devices with my credit card linked you need my fingerprint to authorize the transactions. It's a fuckin toggle to turn it on. And the whole "well they may be tech illiterate blah blah" bullshit. That's such bullshit. It's 2019 for fucks sake, Google it. "How to stop my kid using my credit card on my iPad" Done. Read a tutorial on how to flip a toggle in settings. Problem solved.
It isn't so much that people are defending their shitty (though still operating under legal terms) practices, it's that any sense of responsibility has been completely eroded. People apparently now expect even the most basic of functions to be a hand holding exercise or else lawsuit/disturbing article timeeee!
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
And once again the original article is conflating the issue with things that aren't at all predatory like normal app store type purchases as one of the examples is a girl buying the same apps over and over. Idk why people are ignoring this whenever someone points out this or that could have easily been avoided by saying that person is defending shitty practices. If you can link a card or account to your device, then you are tech savvy enough to enable protection features. So take the few minutes to do that! It's not rocket science. The parents could have easily made it so it always asks for a password for every single purchase attempt. Most likely from the same screen they first input the payment details in. Most likely they could have chosen to not save it at all even. They say google enabled the purchases by itself after they had disabled it or whatever. Yeah, right. Google is out to get kids to buy the same apps over and over by secretly enabling purchases. Hell, even the example of the kid who thought he's buying stuff with in game currency but was using real money, unless we know of the exact game and it knowingly fooling people, sounds dubious as it's most always clearly marked. Hell at the very least you'll at some point get a pop up talking about you being about to get charged money for the purchase or something, no? I feel bad for the kid but that most likely wasn't predatory either, instead the kid simply didn't understand what was happening even though it most likely was clearly, for an adult, who should always oversee the usage of his cards, marked. Again depending on settings and they too could have enabled a password for each and every attempt to purchase anything. Hell, almost none of the examples in the article are about predatory practices which is to get weak minded people to knowingly pour more money than they should into the shit they got super addicted to. The majority is about so called accidental purchases.
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Phunkydiabetic
Banned
Bingo. It can all be boiled down to "I don't want to take responsibility" which has permeated our society so much now it's disgusting.
avalonzero
Member
Should the parents of the 22 year old with special needs know better too?
Phunkydiabetic
Banned
Of course. They state he has the mental capacity of a 7 year old. They should've put the safeguards in place to prevent this from happening.
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