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NASA Testing Warp Theory For Possible FTL Travel

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This is how ships in Mass Effect moved too, they fall into the space in front of them.

No. That was a sublight reactionless stealth drive in use exclusively by Normandy class vehicles. It didn't warp space, it created mass in front of the ship so that gravity propelled it forwards.

ME FTL operates in a vague and undefined by lowering the mass of a given object.
 

pulsemyne

Member
The original set of equations required massive amounts of energy, far more than even our own sun is capable of producing. However there was some tweaking done to the way the warp field is situated and it now requires far less. So much less that it maybe possible for it to work. The Ship, if one was ever built, would actually bare a striking resemblance to Vulcan ships from star trek enterprise.
 

Woorloog

Banned
No. That was a sublight reactionless stealth drive in use exclusively by Normandy class vehicles. It didn't warp space, it created mass in front of the ship so that gravity propelled it forwards.

ME FTL operates in a vague and undefined by lowering the mass of a given object.

ME FTL lowers the ship's mass to zero, or even negative, apparently. However, how it propels the ship is a mystery really, since ejecting zero-mass-reaction-mass from the ship nets zero change in momemtum, no?
 

Derwind

Member
It's sad that even if they manage to do this we won't see anything like this applied to a real world situation during our lifetimes. Still, pretty interesting, although I wonder what becomes of the crew inside the spaceship. I suppose time outside the bubble will pass them by at a highly increased rate? Or something? No? I really don't know. :p

planet-of-the-apes.jpg


dr-zaius-planet-apes-2009.jpg


Don't ask that question.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
Isn't bringing two regions of spacetime closer a wormhole in practice? Maybe it wouldn't be like a "hole", rather it'd be a large... region... or some such. But still, basically the same principle as a wormhole, no?

No, this is more like a pulsating thruster, or squeezing a pebble through a straw.
 

Outlaw

Banned
Alcubierre used this knowledge to exploit a loophole in the "universal speed limit."

That's great and all but it'll only work until God, The Universe or Aliens release a patch so we can't exploit it anymore.
 
ME FTL lowers the ship's mass to zero, or even negative, apparently. However, how it propels the ship is a mystery really, since ejecting zero-mass-reaction-mass from the ship nets zero change in momemtum, no?

That's not even the worst of it. ME guns cheat by lowering the mass of projectiles, accelerating to huge speeds and then the projectile is restored to full mass when it leaves the barrel and thus the field. If you think carefully about this you realize that more energy is now in the projectile than was put into it. Whoops. That's a thermodynamics violation.

Then realize that if shuttles can go FTL, then they can also use drive to go high sublight, disengage the mass lowering field, and then smash into a planet at 0.999C, which is a planet shattering, civilization ending energy. This further means that missiles should be king and all ship classes ought to be irrelevant.
 

Woorloog

Banned
That's not even the worst of it. ME guns cheat by lowering the mass of projectiles, accelerating to huge speeds and then the projectile is restored to full mass when it leaves the barrel and thus the field. If you think carefully about this you realize that more energy is now in the projectile than was put into it. Whoops. That's a thermodynamics violation.

Then realize that if shuttles can go FTL, then they can also use drive to go high sublight, disengage the mass lowering field, and then smash into a planet at 0.999C, which is a planet shattering, civilization ending energy. This further means that missiles should be king and all ship classes ought to be irrelevant.

Eh, they can't go at FTL speed toward planets or other objects. The limitation is part of the engine construction... Presumably put in place (this is in-universe speculation) by the Reapers to prevent FTL/easy relativistic missiles from being used as weapons agains the Reapers. Genre savvy guys, those Reapers.
For some reason, the engine construction can't be changed... doubly-odd when you think about it, since such limit is more likely a software limit.

A "relativistic" ship was used as a weapon in the canon, but it was limited to some small percentage of c and didn't do much damage (terrorist strike to a city). Required a lot of work to circumvent the safeties even partially. Too costly too, apparently, engines being expensive. But if so, why are they so common?

What bothers me more, though, is that lasers are somehow short range weapons in MEverse, and that the silly kinetic guns their ships have are useful at long range...
 
Eh, they can't go at FTL speed toward planets or other objects. The limitation is part of the engine construction... Presumably put in place (this is in-universe speculation) by the Reapers to prevent FTL/easy relativistic missiles from being used as weapons agains the Reapers. Genre savvy guys, those Reapers.
For some reason, the engine construction can't be changed... doubly-odd when you think about it, since such limit is more likely a software limit.

A "relativistic" ship was used as a weapon in the canon, but it was limited to some small percentage of c and didn't do much damage (terrorist strike to a city). Required a lot of work to circumvent the safeties even partially. Too costly too, apparently, engines being expensive. But if so, why are they so common?

These are the same novels that feature the cereal toothbrush ninja? What a ludicrous plot BandAid. They can circumvent the goddamn safeties by literally cutting power to the drive which shuts down the field. In what universe could engineers invent whole new drive cores like the tantalus but not know how to build one without safeties?

And as for cost, shuttles are FTL capable and cost 4 million credits. The Normandy 1s core alone cost 120 billion, the cost of a heavy cruiser according to the admiral in ME1.

And if the reapers don't want you using them, why don't the reapers use them themselves for hyper long range fighting?

bothers me more, though, is that lasers are somehow short range weapons in MEverse, and that the silly kinetic guns their ships have are useful at long range...

Lasers ought to be relatively short range because of blooming. But even without the above cheats, missiles ought to be highly effective with things like atomic shaped charges.
 

Woorloog

Banned
These are the same novels that feature the cereal toothbrush ninja? What a ludicrous plot BandAid. They can circumvent the goddamn safeties by literally cutting power to the drive which shuts down the field. In what universe could engineers invent whole new drive cores like the tantalus but not know how to build one without safeties?

And as for cost, shuttles are FTL capable and cost 4 million credits. The Normandy 1s core alone cost 120 billion, the cost of a heavy cruiser according to the admiral in ME1.

And if the reapers don't want you using them, why don't the reapers use them themselves for hyper long range fighting?
This info was from in-game codex and Cerberus News, both which have better quality than that cereal killer thing (won't call it even a book).
(Other ME novels are better... but not by much.)
Tantalus drive core is just a normal mass effect drive core, with added benefit of being capable of creating usable gravity wells outside the ship. At least, that's what assume (it is noted as being twice the normal size for Normandy-sized ship). EDIT perhaps the "outside"-gravity well was an innovation, specific for that model, but it doesn't mean they can circumvent FTL-safeties, if they're fundamental part of construction. Just playing devil's advocate though, it doesn't make sense to me...

It is noted repeatedly in various places that the mass effect tech is usable, but not really understood. It is black box tech, as designed by the Reapers.
Justfication for the Council and other species not understanding it are shoddy though...

Expenses: as i said, it doesn't make any sense. One could assume manufacturing capabilities are too small to produce enough FTL missiles.. but again, that causes other issues.

As for the Reapers not doing that... no idea. VS planets it is simple, they harvest, they don't destroy (usually, insignificant populations are decimated but they have cheaper means for that).
The Reapers could have limited manufacturing and resources... but after each cycle, they could use resources captured from the harvested species.
*shrug*
I reckon BioWare writers didn't think of these, or they thought no one would wonder.
Regardless, it ain't really relevant to the games themselves.


Lasers ought to be relatively short range because of blooming. But even without the above cheats, missiles ought to be highly effective with things like atomic shaped charges.

Lasers don't suffer from blooming in space. Blooming is purely in-atmosphere phenomenon, IIRC.
Do you mean diffraction?
In practice, laser range is limited to some few hundred thousand kilometers... but withing one lightsecond.... Kinetic cannons like in Mass Effect have much, much shorter effective range against moving targets.

Missiles do have very long effective range but they're suspectible to point defense. And if you can have missiles, you can have disposable coolant, so heat won't be an issue. Well. Perhaps more than with missiles but still.
I'll note that there is no rational reason for not using missiles in Mass Effect universe, for they have space fighters. Space-fucking-fighters!

By the way, do you have any idea how long is maximum effective range of a nuclear shaped charge, a Casaba-howitzer (because i don't, and neither does the Atomic Rocket site)? Wondering whether they're truly useful as stand-off warheads. Might be simpler to use bomb-pumped x-ray lasers, or just have better rocket for more acceleration.

EDIT lol, feels silly talking about Mass Effect, FTL missiles and lasers... we need a proper realistic space combat thread.
Your space military ranks thread is good (subbed) but no one but me seems to be remembring it. And i can't think of anything to add to it anymore :/
 

Chronoja

Member
Cthulu awaits

Only if we were heading into the ocean (I know Cthulhu is an alien, but *the* Cthulhu is in R'yleh) . In space...Azathoth or Yog-Sothoth are more likely awaiting.

All this talk of faster than light travel though means nothing unless we develop "deflector shield" technology. Anything moving at that speed, every tiny fragment of rock or metal becomes a bullet of destruction.
 

Woorloog

Banned
All this talk of faster than light travel though means nothing unless we develop "deflector shield" technology. Anything moving at that speed, every tiny fragment of rock or metal becomes a bullet of destruction.

A thick piece of ice in front of the ship. Solved. Next?

Oh, wait, there's this relativity and causality thing.

BTW, even near-lightspeed travel needs a shield... but again, a large enough block of ice should do it.
Don't need "deflector shields. Besides, such things are most likely impossible.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Not to go full trekkie but didn't warp in star trek work differently. I was under the assumption matter + antimatter when connected via dilithium could produce a subspace bubble which would remove the ship from the confines of normal space (and thus the laws of physics) so when using standard propulsion methods E=mc2 never came into play and they could accelerate faster with less propulsion.

I have the TNG ship manual and it definitly discusses a bubble like this article outlines. I don't think it mentions subspace
 

bobbytkc

ADD New Gen Gamer
We need to perfect quantum communication first so we can actually talk to whatever we end up sending lightyears away.

....

That is not how quantum communication works.

But my greatest dream for humanity outside of medical science lies in Faster Than Light travel.
 

antonz

Member
The original set of equations required massive amounts of energy, far more than even our own sun is capable of producing. However there was some tweaking done to the way the warp field is situated and it now requires far less. So much less that it maybe possible for it to work. The Ship, if one was ever built, would actually bare a striking resemblance to Vulcan ships from star trek enterprise.

And you are correct. They found tweaking the shape of the ring reduced the energy needs down significantly to feasible levels.

As you said this would be pretty much how our early warp ships would need to be

 

Valnen

Member
If we do manage to pull this off I wonder how long it'll be before we can put it to practical use, like colonizing other worlds.
 

Sibylus

Banned
Still waiting for a hypothesized drive that doesn't fry the passengers. Wonder how much that'd bump your energy requirements.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
That'd be crazy if this ends up having a shot of working.

As much as I enjoy science fiction, physics and astronomy, in the back of my mind I always figured that humans - if they didnt destroy each other first - would have a better chance finding a way to extend human life to a point that such journeys would seem possible in a lifetime before we would ever succeed in haransssing wormholes or FTL travel or some other far out hypothesis.

No real reason. I just always felt we will end up finding a cure to mortality before we find a way to travel faster then light.
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
That'd be crazy if this ends up having a shot of working.

As much as I enjoy science fiction, physics and astronomy, in the back of my mind I always figured that humans - if they didnt destroy each other first - would have a better chance finding a way to extend human life to a point that such journeys would seem possible in a lifetime before we would ever succeed in haransssing wormholes or FTL travel or some other far out hypothesis.

No real reason. I just always felt we will end up finding a cure to mortality before we find a way to travel faster then light.


we... are... GODSSSSS
 
All this talk of faster than light travel though means nothing unless we develop "deflector shield" technology. Anything moving at that speed, every tiny fragment of rock or metal becomes a bullet of destruction.

I believe the warp bubble itself acts like a shield. It would sweep up everything in front of it, and then release it as a massive blast of radiation at the end.
 

Woorloog

Banned
Mass? Or more directly, gravity fields?
Gravity warps spacetime but it doesn't exactly expand it, rather it... compresses it, right?
Expanding requires anti-gravity, negative energy, some such. Dark matter/energy may be that, no? The universe is expanding for some reason.
The earth does not fry you, yet it moves at a faster speed than any conventional vehicle would. We would have to get a clue from nature on this one :D
We're talking about moving at near-lightspeed, or above it, not merely the speed Earth moves... (and of course, speed relative to what?)
At those speeds, a single particle impacting you will have tremendous kinetic energy...
And if spacetime itself moves at lightspeed or above, particles caught in that emit radiation, heat, too much so, for us.
Or something like that.
 
'Warp' is also a nautical term, referring to the hauling of ships around by way of ropes (eg in crowded harbours). So they did used to warp the hell out of places, albeit not FTL.
 

Jackpot

Banned
Not to go full trekkie but didn't warp in star trek work differently. I was under the assumption matter + antimatter when connected via dilithium could produce a subspace bubble which would remove the ship from the confines of normal space (and thus the laws of physics) so when using standard propulsion methods E=mc2 never came into play and they could accelerate faster with less propulsion.

No, dilithium allows for a stable matter/anti-matter reaction so they can have their warp core. Some species use other power sources like black holes. But either way high-energy plasma is directed from the warp core to the nacelles. The warp coils are powered by the warp plasma (the big glowy engines that flash when going to warp) and have the ability to create a warp bubble/field that compresses and expands space like the OP describes. The ship is still travelling at impulse speeds inside the warp bubble.
 
Lasers don't suffer from blooming in space. Blooming is purely in-atmosphere phenomenon, IIRC.
Do you mean diffraction?
In practice, laser range is limited to some few hundred thousand kilometers... but withing one lightsecond.... Kinetic cannons like in Mass Effect have much, much shorter effective range against moving targets.

Missiles do have very long effective range but they're suspectible to point defense. And if you can have missiles, you can have disposable coolant, so heat won't be an issue. Well. Perhaps more than with missiles but still.
I'll note that there is no rational reason for not using missiles in Mass Effect universe, for they have space fighters. Space-fucking-fighters!

By the way, do you have any idea how long is maximum effective range of a nuclear shaped charge, a Casaba-howitzer (because i don't, and neither does the Atomic Rocket site)? Wondering whether they're truly useful as stand-off warheads. Might be simpler to use bomb-pumped x-ray lasers, or just have better rocket for more acceleration.

EDIT lol, feels silly talking about Mass Effect, FTL missiles and lasers... we need a proper realistic space combat thread.
Your space military ranks thread is good (subbed) but no one but me seems to be remembring it. And i can't think of anything to add to it anymore :/

If you haven't, read David Weber's Honor Harrington series of books, sounds like they're right up your alley. The first in the series is On Basilisk Station.

The ships use gravity based propulsion, with FTL drives being a little more nebulous in their explanation. Main armaments are all missiles with bomb-pumped laser warheads, with point defense and ECM being a huge part of the ship to ship combat. Relativistic attacks are also possible, as missiles are capable of .95c or higher (shielding is so-so explained in-universe), but are universally banned on planets or civilian targets due to their "holy shit let's not go blowing up planets, guys" effects.

The author does a really nice job setting up the tech and is fantastic at figuring out positioning and combat so it's the best space combat for nerds, with vigorous dashes of Horatio Hornblower thrown in for good measure. Big ass ships of Her Majesty's Navy shooting around at .5c while throwing off broadsides of missiles? Totally rad.
 

Woorloog

Banned
If you haven't, read David Weber's Honor Harrington series of books (if you haven't already), sounds like they're right up your alley. The first in the series is On Basilisk Station.

The ships use gravity based propulsion, with FTL drives being a little more nebulous in their explanation. Main armaments are all missiles with bomb-pumped laser warheads, with point defense and ECM being a huge part of the ship to ship combat. Relativistic attacks are also possible, as missiles are capable of .95c or higher (shielding is so-so explained in-universe), but are universally banned on planets or civilian targets due to their "holy shit let's not go blowing up planets, guys" effects.

The author does a really nice job setting up the tech and is fantastic at figuring out positioning and combat so it's the best space combat for nerds, with vigorous dashes of Horatio Hornblower thrown in for good measure. Big ass ships of Her Majesty's Navy shooting around at .5c while throwing off broadsides of missiles? Totally rad.

Know of Honor series. Read about it.
Not particularly interested in it though, for some reason. Despite generally liking space opera and scifi a lot.
OTOH, don't have much reading at the moment, and i can't find some books i'd like to read so if i find early Honor book (it is a long series, IIRC, want to start from beginning), i'll buy it.
Don't suggest e-books, can't stand reading from displays.
 

DrBo42

Member
"The problem is that the field of negative energy is so small, the laser so precise, that even the smallest seismic motion of the Earth can throw off the results."

Is the test equipment far too large to bring up to the I.S.S.?
 

.GqueB.

Banned
I was born in the wrong century.

Does that ever piss you off? Like we're at the cusp of something great with what's happening in the world and we'll either be long dead or too old to appreciate it. I feel like this is some bullshit transitional period. Like being around when they first started testing the assembly line.

In other words:

Hurry up everyone
 

Woorloog

Banned
"The problem is that the field of negative energy is so small, the laser so precise, that even the smallest seismic motion of the Earth can throw off the results."

Is the test equipment far too large to bring up to the I.S.S.?

Somehow i have a feeling ISS is not suitable environment.


We are really going to need a geostationary space station for zero-g manufacturing and zero-g lab. Surely we could do stuff in those we can't do on Earth.
 
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