Netanyahu: World has no "moral right" to stop Israel from attacking Iran

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Hix said:
All of these things though aren't a patch on the possibilities of Iran getting nukes. Bottom line is that sanctions aren't working. What is Israel to do? Do you think the Saudi's are going to let Iran get nukes? This shit has to stop.
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So you disagree with the analysis from many observers that war will not prevent Iran from getting nukes?

If your answer is "No. I believe that Iran will eventually get nukes, somehow" then why even bother?

If your answer is "Yes. I believe that war will once and forever prevent Iran from getting nukes" then the question is at what cost? How long will we have to occupy Iran? Will it only lead to greater calls of Jihad against the West? Will it cause decades of war and trillions of dollars? Will it cause the progressives in Iran to switch sides and strengthen the position of the hawks?
 
Okay, well US, pull all support out of the middle east and see what happens. I don't care which side wins, but we all know who would win this war if it did take place.
 
Hix said:
He has a right to be concerned. Sanctions and talks are doing nothing to halt Iran's onward march towards a nuclear weapon capability.
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When have the "talks" toward Iran been anything but demands and threats? If Israel is serious about stopping the spread of nuclear weapons, why doesn't it offer to get rid of its own? Then they would be more justified in asking Iran to do the same.
 
CharlieDigital said:
So you disagree with the analysis from many observers that war will not prevent Iran from getting nukes?

If your answer is "No. I believe that Iran will eventually get nukes, somehow" then why even bother?

If your answer is "Yes. I believe that war will once and forever prevent Iran from getting nukes" then the question is at what cost? How long will we have to occupy Iran? Will it only lead to greater calls of Jihad against the West? Will it cause decades of war and trillions of dollars?
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I don't think anyone denies that war will not prevent Iran getting nukes, only delay it.

Nobody proposes an Iraq or Afghanistan MK II, at least to my knowledge. Israel would obviously take out the nuclear reactors, ala Osirak.

There's a cost, a huge cost, but there's 7 million Israeli people (and plenty more besides) pretty damn scared now and for good reason. Iran shouldn't be doing this, but they are. Israel shouldn't have to go to war, but they might.

chaostrophy said:
When have the "talks" toward Iran been anything but demands and threats? If Israel is serious about stopping the spread of nuclear weapons, why doesn't it offer to get rid of its own? Then they would be more justified in asking Iran to do the same.
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Do you think Iran would stop if Israel got rid of it's nuclear arsenal/deterrent? That's never had anything to do with it and I see no reason it suddenly would now.
 
Me to Netanyahou: Go fuck yourself, you war-mongering, war criminal asshole. You don't have a fucking shred of evidence that Iran is getting nukes, nor that if they did they would actually attack Israel, an insanely suicidal thing to do. And regardless of what people like Netanyahou and the right wing try to convince you, Iran's government, although many things, are not suicidal. How dare someone like Netanyahou, who condones and leads a country with a litany of continuing mass human rights abuses and occupation, talk about morality to those who wish to prevent war.
 
radioheadrule83 said:
He's a fucking crook. There are plenty of red lines that Iran won't be allowed to cross... Unfortunately, red lines are a thing that don't seem to ist for Israel, the government there and this guy seem to think they can do whatever the fuck they want. And guess what -- they pretty much can and already do.
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Footage, hours of footage of isaeli border guards and women/children/elderly are so damning. They have no law that they are afraid of. Was once a big supporter, but they've become exactly what they try to paint others as.
 
Hix said:
I don't think anyone denies that war will not prevent Iran getting nukes, only delay it.

Nobody proposes an Iraq or Afghanistan proposal, at least to my knowledge. Israel would obviously take out the nuclear reactions, ala Osirak.

There's a cost, a huge cost, but there's 7 million Israeli people (and plenty more besides) pretty damn scared now and for good reason. Iran shouldn't be doing this, but they are. Israel shouldn't have to go to war, but they might.



Do you think Iran would stop if Israel got rid of it's nuclear arsenal/deterrent? That's never had anything to do with it and I see no reason it suddenly would now.
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Those 7 million have nuclear weapons also, which in itself is perhaps a strong factor in Iran's pursuit of these awful weapons
 
Hix said:
There's a cost, a huge cost, but there's 7 million Israeli people (and plenty more besides) pretty damn scared now and for good reason. Iran shouldn't be doing this, but they are. Israel shouldn't have to go to war, but they might.
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I believe the saber rattling by both sides to be a big part of this. All sides need to tone down the rhetoric.

In the years that North Korea has had nuclear weapons, has the situation between the North and South improved or deteriorated or stayed the course?

The truth of the matter is that I believe, backed by the analysis that we can only delay acquisition of nuclear capabilities, there is no point and no reason for war. It's a short term political play by the hawks that doesn't take into consideration the long term stability of the region. If one accepts that we cannot stop them, then one should accept that a war to delay the inevitable would be senseless.

Let the situation shift into MAD and we may actually see progress, for once, by leveling the playing field.
 
Jason Raize '75 - '04 said:
Those 7 million have nuclear weapons also, which in itself is perhaps a strong factor in Iran's pursuit of these awful weapons
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This. Iran isn't stupid enough to nuke israel, people are being ridiculous. The US would take Iran off the map if they ever attacked Israel.

Also, Obama isn't talking to Netanyahu because he's about to bring us into war right before the election.
 
M.D said:
Iran attacking Israel with a nuclear weapon is not the primary concern here.

Real concerns are

1. Iran becoming a regional power, which is their ultimate goal. It will greatly impact the region and the Shia vs Sunni conflict (Iran Vs Saudi Arabia)
2. Securing the current regime. What can you really do when the regime at power holds nuclear weapons?
3. State-sponsored terrorism, now with a nuclear power behind it.
4. Nuclear arms race (Saudi, Egypt, Turkey)

Dislike Israel all you want, but Iran with nuclear weapons is not a good thing in any scenario.
Do you really think this is only Israel's problem?
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this
 
cousins said:
This. Iran isn't stupid enough to nuke israel, people are being ridiculous. The US would take Iran off the map if they ever attacked Israel.

Also, Obama isn't talking to Netanyahu because he's about to bring us into war right before the election.
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Iran wouldn't launch a missile or any such thing. It would be through nuclear terrorism.

And they'd almost certainly deny knowledge.
 
CharlieDigital said:
I believe the saber rattling by both sides to be a big part of this. All sides need to tone down the rhetoric.

In the years that North Korea has had nuclear weapons, has the situation between the North and South improved or deteriorated or stayed the course?

The truth of the matter is that I believe, backed by the analysis that we can only delay acquisition of nuclear capabilities, there is no point and no reason for war. It's a short term political play by the hawks that doesn't take into consideration the long term stability of the region.

Let the situation shift into MAD and we may actually see progress for once.
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I don't necessarily disagree, but I also don't necessarily see any option if sanctions either aren't tight enough or are just plain being ignored.

Do you honestly think burying heads in the sand and just letting Iran get on with obtaining dat nuke is the most responsible option here for the leadership involved? I certainly wouldn't want to be in Bibi's shoes.
 
nyong said:
Iran wouldn't launch a missile or any such thing. It would be through nuclear terrorism.

And they'd almost certainly deny knowledge.
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You really think Iran will hand one of their handful of nukes to a poorly controlled 3rd party?
Not to mention that Israel will turn them into a glass parking lot in the case of a nuclear detonation, with or without evidence.
 
Hix said:
Stay classy.



I don't see how you manage to come to that conclusion. Israel have had nukes for 50-60 years.
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Perhaps Iran didn't have the sources or capability to begin their own project 60 years ago? Perhaps their geopolitical ambitions and anonymity with the Israels is the precursor to their desire to attain these weapons and create a power shift? No one wants a nuclear armed Iran, but by all accounts no one wants a nuclear Middle East. If we're in agreement that any such military expedition will only delay the Iranians, then what is ultimately the solution to this problem? If Iran is the prevention aspect of non-proliferation, then when does the 'disarm' phase kick in, if at all, when you're unlikely to find many to even acknowledge Israels own nuclear weapons? If this is a question of maintaining Israelis military superiority, then it'll culminate in war through the region eventually if Arab hatred of the Israeli state is anything to measure
 
Both Israel and the US are being such idiots about this. Making these kind of threats will definitely accelerate their nuclear weapons program should that program exists.
 
Hix said:
I don't necessarily disagree, but I don't necessarily see any option if sanctions either aren't tight enough or are just plain being ignored.

Do you honestly think burying heads in the sand and just letting Iran get on with obtaining that nuke is the most responsible option here for the leadership involved? I certainly wouldn't want to be in Bibi's shoes.
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No, what I would propose is that these guys come to the table and work out a treaty and be pro-active in diplomacy instead of the current brinkmanship and saber rattling. Recognize Israel, work out some solution to the Palestinian situation, lift all sanctions, work towards normalcy.

I mean, seriously, it's not like Israel is ever going to leave the Middle East and it's not like any of its neighbors are going to convert to Judaism or Christianity any time soon. It is what is is.

Might as well accept reality and find a path forward instead of continuing the rhetoric. Otherwise we could be doing this for centuries, chasing around in circles generation after generation.
 
Hix said:
I don't necessarily disagree, but I don't necessarily see any option if sanctions either aren't tight enough or are just plain being ignored.

Do you honestly think burying heads in the sand and just letting Iran get on with obtaining that nuke is the most responsible option here for the leadership involved? I certainly wouldn't want to be in Bibi's shoes.
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Aww, how cute, talking about Israel as if it's a poor, defenseless nation, while it's one of the richest, most heavily militarized country in the region with the largest nuclear arsenal.

Your justification for attacking Iran is based on the hypothetical, imaginary scenario that it might attack Israel, which is based on the hypothetical scenario of it obtaining Nukes? Awesome. How about- oh I don't know, NOT pre-emptively attacking countries based on what you imagine they might do in the future? Rational, sane human beings realized the chances of Iran launching a nuclear attack towards Israel IF THEY EVEN HAD NUKES if pretty much nil, yet people like you want to believe it's an assumption that it will happen. How awesome it must feel, to be a chicken-hawk like you accusing people of "burying their heads in the sand" while beating the drums of war. I don't believe that "Bibi" (aw, he shounds so cute when that nickname is used) is actually scared, nor believes for a second that his country will be attacked by Iran. He doesn't like them, wants them taken out, and is using what he believes is the most effective fear-mongering tactic.
 
Hix said:
Do you think Iran would stop if Israel got rid of it's nuclear arsenal/deterrent? That's never had anything to do with it and I see no reason it suddenly would now.
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Any move by Israel to show decreased aggression toward Iran would help the Iranians feel more secure and need a nuclear deterrent less. Whether anything would be enough at this point, I don't know. But I can't imagine Iran ever launching a pre-emptive nuclear strike. They have nothing to gain and too much to lose from it.
 
Chichikov said:
I don't want to get into "who is worse" arguments, it's kinda pointless, but the point is that Iran doesn't really have an territorial dispute with Israel.
They're using Israel as a way to unite the country against a common enemy (which is why they talk much more than they actually do shit about it).
This has been throughout history a staple of regimes facing popular opposition, like Iran faced in the wake of the '09 elections.
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You just described Bush.

You should watch it.
 
Chichikov said:
The Iranian government is using Israel to distract its people from its failing, and the Israeli government is using Iran to distract its people from its failing.
Synergy!
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This kind of strategy has been deployed since forever. Whenever there is a huge domestic problem, start a war to distract ones population from their domestic failings.
 
TurkishEmperor said:
I'm for 0 nuclear weapons in the Middle East, that means Israel too.
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Pretty much this, but it's a pipe dream. Israel will never give up their nuclear weapons.

Btw, I've been out of the whole Iran loop for a while and last I remember Iran only acknowledged that they were using nuclear tech as a source of generating power. Has their position changed?
 
Hix said:
I don't think anyone denies that war will not prevent Iran getting nukes, only delay it.

Nobody proposes an Iraq or Afghanistan MK II, at least to my knowledge. Israel would obviously take out the nuclear reactors, ala Osirak.

There's a cost, a huge cost, but there's 7 million Israeli people (and plenty more besides) pretty damn scared now and for good reason. Iran shouldn't be doing this, but they are. Israel shouldn't have to go to war, but they might.
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I chuckle at how it's terrible that 7 million Israelis are "scared" yet this analysis completely ignores how 75m Iranian people may feel about a foreign nation attacking local facilities.
 
Hix said:
Bottom line is that sanctions aren't working.
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I note that nobody has called you on this line, which is too bad, because it's bullshit. If your hope for war is that it will delay Iranian nuclear weapons, then sanctions have been at least as effective as war, and for much less cost.
 
Stinkles said:
A small politically volatile middle eastern nation built on religion - with nukes? Crazy!
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I support matter anti-matter bombs. At least, when they are done destroying each other, there won't a nuclear fallout devastating surrounding regions.
 
Paradoxal_Utopia said:
Aww, how cute, talking about Israel as if it's a poor, defenseless nation, while it's one of the richest, most heavily militarized country in the region with the largest nuclear arsenal.

Your justification for attacking Iran is based on the hypothetical, imaginary scenario that it might attack Israel, which is based on the hypothetical scenario of it obtaining Nukes? Awesome. How about- oh I don't know, NOT pre-emptively attacking countries based on what you imagine they might do in the future? Rational, sane human beings realized the chances of Iran launching a nuclear attack towards Israel IF THEY EVEN HAD NUKES if pretty much nil, yet people like you want to believe it's an assumption that it will happen. How awesome it must feel, to be a chicken-hawk like you accusing people of "burying their heads in the sand" while beating the drums of war. I don't believe that "Bibi" (aw, he shounds so cute when that nickname is used) is actually scared, nor believes for a second that his country will be attacked by Iran. He doesn't like them, wants them taken out, and is using what he believes is the most effective fear-mongering tactic.
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That's an awful lot of vitriol to say not very much at all.

I'm talking about Israel, the country with 7-8 million civilians, which is on receiving end of daily threats from Iran and daily missiles from their proxy Hamas.

You can rant and rave about "hypothetical" situations, but nobody wants Iran to get the nuke because anyone with a brain can understand that it's the last thing both the Middle East and the Iranian people need right now.

I'm not beating the drums of war. I don't want Israel to go to war. I want Iran to stop trying to develop a nuclear weapon. It's unfortunate that we don't live in the World where that's possible.

chaostrophy said:
Any move by Israel to show decreased aggression toward Iran would help the Iranians feel more secure and need a nuclear deterrent less. Whether anything would be enough at this point, I don't know. But I can't imagine Iran ever launching a pre-emptive nuclear strike. They have nothing to gain and too much to lose from it.
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As has been stated many times, the fear of a potential Iranian government strike is of secondary concern.

Everyone seems to be good at telling Israel what not to do, but the only suggestions for what to do are "keep waiting, maybe sanctions might work one of these years" or "give up your own nuclear arsenal/deterrent, can't hurt right?"

pigeon said:
I note that nobody has called you on this line, which is too bad, because it's bullshit. If your hope for war is that it will delay Iranian nuclear weapons, then sanctions have been at least as effective as war, and for much less cost.
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Iran continue to enrich uranium at an increasing rate. Sanctions have failed.

But go ahead, tell us what you think will work.

clemenx said:
I chuckle at how it's terrible that 7 million Israelis are "scared" yet this analysis completely ignores how 75m Iranian people may feel about a foreign nation attacking local facilities.
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civilians =/= facilities.

Also Bibi is the Prime Minister of Israel, not Iran. The safety and well-being of the Israeli people is kinda his no 1 priority.
 
The funny thing is that probably (I presume), most citizens on both sides would be against a war. It's not like it benefits anyone...
 
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