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[Blizzard]

I've just gotten to the point where I don't support games on Kickstarter or at retail that cordon off huge amounts of content. A promo character or set of cards is one thing, but an entire extra box of expansion modules, or what have you, completely drops the game off my radar. There are too many good games released every year for me to deal with that shit.

This is one of the things I love the Gloomhaven / Founders of Gloomhaven designer for. His policy is that kickstarter exclusives suck, and he explicitly says so in a FAQ entry.

A few people are like, well that's why I'm not backing your game, no exclusives. I figure that those people are well worth losing sales over in order to make a more consumer-friendly standalone retail product, though.

 

[-tetsuo-]

I've just gotten to the point where I don't support games on Kickstarter or at retail that cordon off huge amounts of content. A promo character or set of cards is one thing, but an entire extra box of expansion modules, or what have you, completely drops the game off my radar. There are too many good games released every year for me to deal with that shit.

I didn't know anything about it until after I bought the game. I got it from the resell shop at Gencon for pretty cheap. It looked interesting and already had a couple expansions in the box. After playing I looked into it to see what I was missing. 3 quests I believe, 4 in the box, but half the encounters which is 18 instead of 36. The good thing is since the game isn't loaded with tons of minis, it is very easy to get the KS exclusive stuff for really cheap.

 

[antiquegamer]

So during the great floods this weekend, I was trapped at someones home with only Mistfall to play. I played a lot solo and that game is actually really, really good. Shame that I missed basically double the content by not catching it on kickstarter, or the standalone expansion. Really nicely done encounters and card combo play mixed in with an adventure type feel.

You are wrong NSKN is probably the complete opposite of CMON when it come to Kickstarter practices. Mistfall was the first game I backed on Kickstarter while I was a bit disappoint with the game mostly because of the horrible rule book and the game was probably could use a bit more playtesting I was more than happy to back their game again because they always good with backers. They don't do exclusive, if you go back to look on Kickstarter for Mistfall, the backers just simply get the expansions and extra for the pledge cost. All the extras and expansions are available via BGG store. The game however is pretty niche and I think only a little over two thousands people backed it so you really can't expect them to go hog wild printing the expansions so they were late coming to retails and was late available through BGG. I know my local stores still have some of the expansions and the game was not terribly popular so you probably can find them cheap just as you find the game.

I was so impress that they decided not to sell the game at Gen Con few years ago so the backers would be the first to get the game. I know they lost out on a lot of publicity but kudos to them. I even backed the stand alone expansion even though the first game didn't really wow me. The standalone expansion is really good however and fix a lot of problem with the first game. The game also do away with the time cards so you can skip those as the new mechanic is way better and much more balance. The game while decent for solo, I think it really shine as co-op game because you can played cards off one another (or you can just do two hands solo which is how I usually play most of my solo game).

Here is a link to one of the KS encounters on BGG, I am sure you can search for the rest.

https://boardgamegeekstore.com/products/mistfall-encounter-pack-1

Also best of wishes for you during this horrible storm and hope all is well.

 

[EYEL1NER]

This is one of the things I love the Gloomhaven / Founders of Gloomhaven designer for. His policy is that kickstarter exclusives suck, and he explicitly says so in a FAQ entry.

A few people are like, well that's why I'm not backing your game, no exclusives. I figure that those people are well worth losing sales over in order to make a more consumer-friendly standalone retail product, though.

Oh wow, I just went and checked the FAQ and it says exactly that. Now I want Gloomhaven even more. I used the 'Remind Me' feature and planned on pledging before it ended, but like so many times before when I have inexplicably chosen the option to wait until the end to pledge for something I want rather than right away, I missed the ending.

 

[Blizzard]

Oh wow, I just went and checked the FAQ and it says exactly that. Now I want Gloomhaven even more. I used the 'Remind Me' feature and planned on pledging before it ended, but like so many times before when I have inexplicably chosen the option to wait until the end to pledge for something I want rather than right away, I missed the ending.

If you're patient enough or have a local store that takes preorders, I'd still hope you'll be able to get it new for retail price.

 

[BassForever]

I feel that KS exclusices should be timed exclusives or be cosmetic exclusives. Either make the content available as part of your planned expansion or sell the ks exclusives as a stand alone mini expansion on your website or via bgg promos store. Cosmetic exclusives like painted minis, higher quality cards/components, or alternative mini models for flavor should be the standard not the norm.

 

[XShagrath]

I feel that KS exclusices should be timed exclusives or be cosmetic exclusives. Either make the content available as part of your planned expansion or sell the ks exclusives as a stand alone mini expansion on your website or via bgg promos store. Cosmetic exclusives like painted minis, higher quality cards/components, or alternative mini models for flavor should be the standard not the norm.

I agree. Games that I've found out about late that have tons of KS exclusives have put me off of purchasing entirely. I don't mind paying more to get all the content through retail channels, but I'm not going to track them down and pay after-market for exclusive expansions.

 

[toddhunter]

Any game with day 1 expansions or "extra boxes" I would avoid anyway, by nature of the genre (I'm thinking boxes of minis + random cards).

But in concept I still like kickstarter component/quality improvements and feel they are fair.

 

[KJ869]

Any game with day 1 expansions or "extra boxes" I would avoid anyway, by nature of the genre (I'm thinking boxes of minis + random cards).

But in concept I still like kickstarter component/quality improvements and feel they are fair.

I like those as theyre usually for the whole printrun and not for just KS.

Another company that does not do kickstarter exclusives (Except Crisis because they did not find anyone willing to distribute it) https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/ludicreations/created

 

[toddhunter]

I like those as theyre usually for the whole printrun and not for just KS.

Another company that does not do kickstarter exclusives (Except Crisis because they did not find anyone willing to distribute it) https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/ludicreations/created

They also have good shipping charges to Australia, which is always nice to see. The "exclusives" argument is one thing, but nothing kills a KS faster for me than a $30 game with $40 shipping :|

 

[nicoga3000]

So I was just thinking about this KS exclusive/day 1 expansion stuff late last night. I was going over the design documents for my game with my friend, and I remember saying something to the effect of "Here's a cool idea on how to expand the gameplay, but I don't think we should work on it until after the main game is finalized. If it does well, we can flesh out this stuff."

Basically saying that a day 1 expansion isn't always done just to hold back content. Sometimes, there's just too many small mechanics and balance changes that will happen due to the inclusion of the stuff that working on it will just continue to delay the release of the core product.

Now everyone will have a different take on that, but I think there are times when it makes sense. We are already talking about KS exclusive stuff, but our plan is to do cosmetic or non-game defining items. The truth of the matter is, people who see "KS Exclusive" tend to be more willing to back the product now versus wait. Even if it's a cosmetic or "thank you" exclusive, people still get excited about it. So you'd be silly not to pander to that audience in some small way.

 

[Draxal]

Rising Sun by Eric Lang?

Ayup, very similiar in scope (the boards look almost exactly alike), price points are hugely different due to miniatures.

L5R is more Samurai Drama, while Rising Sun is much more fantastical. Don't get me wrong L5R has alot of nunhuman elements but nowhere near the amount that Rising Sun has.

I'm talking about them actually expecting these to sell well? The theme will come off as very generic to the casual observer, and the L5R fanbase is just not that huge, and it's all centered around the card game. I just find it odd for them pushing the franchise into other games like this

I don't find it out at all tbh.

Its just an ip they control and they got it for cheap as well. You could easily reskin something like https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/age-of-war/ .

 

[SapphiCine]

There's a number of CMON games I won't touch because of their Kickstarter exclusive fuckery.

 

[BattleMonkey]

There's a number of CMON games I won't touch because of their Kickstarter exclusive fuckery.

It's also usually just cosmetic crap that doesn't have much of a game impact at all.

 

[Mr. Lemming]

As an argument for Kickstarter exclusives, backers are bearing a decent amount of risk related to the project, from if the project will be even fulfilled, the timeliness of the fulfillment to the quality of the gameplay and its components. Exclusives help relieve the cost of that risk.

 

[BattleMonkey]

As an argument for Kickstarter exclusives, backers are bearing a decent amount of risk related to the project, from if the project will be even fulfilled, the timeliness of the fulfillment to the quality of the gameplay and its components. Exclusives help relieve the cost of that risk.

There is no risk with CMON. Their kickstarters are all preorder systems in disguise, they have tons of money and most of their games are way into production or essentially complete by the time they put up their campaigns. They even have most of the stretch goals already done and sculpted as well.

 

[Mr. Lemming]

There is no risk with CMON. Their kickstarters are all preorder systems in disguise, they have tons of money and most of their games are way into production or essentially complete by the time they put up their campaigns. They even have most of the stretch goals already done and sculpted as well.

CMON would be an exception to the rule, where they use them more as a marketing tool to bring attention and excitement to the projects. Most of the hundreds of other projects are not CMON.

Edit: Heck, back when Zombicide was first being Kickstarted this risk existed even with CMON. Granted it set the expectation for all of their future Kickstarters but I don't see how they extricate themselves from that model.

 

[Experien]

There is no risk with CMON. Their kickstarters are all preorder systems in disguise, they have tons of money and most of their games are way into production or essentially complete by the time they put up their campaigns. They even have most of the stretch goals already done and sculpted as well.

Definitely a pre-order system, especially since CMON releases other games without KS. So it is obvious they don't need it. Just for the extra hunks of plastic.

I guess it is a pre-order system for their "Deluxe" Editions.

 

[EYEL1NER]

I've gotten some good plays in this week so far I guess.
Tuesday night's game night had between 6 and 9 people at varying times. We started off with 3x games of The Chameleon with six of us. After that was 3x games of Resistance: Avalon with seven people. Next we played through 45 minutes or so of a seven-player game of Scythe, but quit when two more people showed (two of the new players in Scythe didn't seem too interested and weren't paying too much attention to the rules, so it's probably for the best that we quit). Next up was 2x of Deception: Murder in Hong Kong. Then after some people left we played through a bit of Specter Ops, which I now want (but was confused about some things going on in the game,mi need to read the rules soon because I feel like some things weren't explained to me).

Last night the Deluxe tin version of Walk the Plank arrived, so my wife and daughter played it with me. We didn't incorporate the promo cards at first. It was enjoyable but I feel like it really needs a full five people, or that four would be better than three even.
BattleCON Trials is now scheduled to show up on Saturday. Wish it would get here tomorrow so I can take it to an X-Wing OP on Saturday and try to solicite someone into a game.

 

[-tetsuo-]

You are wrong NSKN is probably the complete opposite of CMON when it come to Kickstarter practices. Mistfall was the first game I backed on Kickstarter while I was a bit disappoint with the game mostly because of the horrible rule book and the game was probably could use a bit more playtesting I was more than happy to back their game again because they always good with backers. They don't do exclusive, if you go back to look on Kickstarter for Mistfall, the backers just simply get the expansions and extra for the pledge cost. All the extras and expansions are available via BGG store. The game however is pretty niche and I think only a little over two thousands people backed it so you really can't expect them to go hog wild printing the expansions so they were late coming to retails and was late available through BGG. I know my local stores still have some of the expansions and the game was not terribly popular so you probably can find them cheap just as you find the game.

I was so impress that they decided not to sell the game at Gen Con few years ago so the backers would be the first to get the game. I know they lost out on a lot of publicity but kudos to them. I even backed the stand alone expansion even though the first game didn't really wow me. The standalone expansion is really good however and fix a lot of problem with the first game. The game also do away with the time cards so you can skip those as the new mechanic is way better and much more balance. The game while decent for solo, I think it really shine as co-op game because you can played cards off one another (or you can just do two hands solo which is how I usually play most of my solo game).

Here is a link to one of the KS encounters on BGG, I am sure you can search for the rest.

https://boardgamegeekstore.com/products/mistfall-encounter-pack-1

Also best of wishes for you during this horrible storm and hope all is well.

Well I am definitely going to buy all of that stuff lol. I can see that the game would be much better with more players as well. A couple times I played multiple characters and I was able to pull some pretty nice combos but it is pretty difficult to keep track with all of the triggers and effects going on playing like that. I liked the game because it reminded me of Mage Knight in that you have your hand and you absolutely have to maximize your turn every time or you are not going to win. I kept drawing the really bad time cards which probably has something to do with it, but I really enjoyed the pressure that the game puts you under.

About the KS stuff, I am fine with it unless I miss a KS that had some nice extras lol. And yea I made it out of the storm ok. Some of my good friends did not though

 

[antiquegamer]

Well I am definitely going to buy all of that stuff lol. I can see that the game would be much better with more players as well. A couple times I played multiple characters and I was able to pull some pretty nice combos but it is pretty difficult to keep track with all of the triggers and effects going on playing like that. I liked the game because it reminded me of Mage Knight in that you have your hand and you absolutely have to maximize your turn every time or you are not going to win. I kept drawing the really bad time cards which probably has something to do with it, but I really enjoyed the pressure that the game puts you under.

About the KS stuff, I am fine with it unless I miss a KS that had some nice extras lol. And yea I made it out of the storm ok. Some of my good friends did not though

I am happy that you made it out OK and best of wishes for speedy recovery to your friends. I still shock every time that I see pictures of the flooding. Anyway, I am happy you like the game, it is one of the hidden gem and if you really into it, you might want to consider getting the stand alone expansion Heart of the Mist. They did away with the time card which can cause the game to quite swingy and sort of normalized the difficulty. There was also several cards that got errata, I don't know if the game you purchase has those cards if not they are also available. (They printed them during Heart of the Mist and gave them out to backer and I think are now available on NSKN site).

 

[Experien]

My local store said distrubitors for Force Friday mailed everything today so they will arrive sometime on Friday. They did that so shop owners couldn't spoil the surprise.

 

[BassForever]

Twilight Imperium: Star Wars edition

 

[AbsolutBro]

Twilight Imperium: Star Wars edition

I'd buy that.

>_>

<_<

... what?

 

[jstevenson]

I'd buy that.

>_>

<_<

... what?

just buy Rebellion...

 

[Neverfade]

just buy Rebellion...

Rebellion is awesome, but... what?

Rebellion is a far cry from the TI experience.



To those wishing for it -- if it were gonna happen, it'd have been in lieu of the 4th edition announcement though.

Edit: A 4 player space battle/control game in the SW universe would be great though. I think the biggest hurdle is finding 4 faction choices that wouldn't be anachronistic. Rebels, Empire, and Scum and Villainy are the easy three... but what would be a 4th that wouldn't be lame or would fit the timeline?

 

[KJ869]

So I was just thinking about this KS exclusive/day 1 expansion stuff late last night. I was going over the design documents for my game with my friend, and I remember saying something to the effect of "Here's a cool idea on how to expand the gameplay, but I don't think we should work on it until after the main game is finalized. If it does well, we can flesh out this stuff."

Basically saying that a day 1 expansion isn't always done just to hold back content. Sometimes, there's just too many small mechanics and balance changes that will happen due to the inclusion of the stuff that working on it will just continue to delay the release of the core product.

Now everyone will have a different take on that, but I think there are times when it makes sense. We are already talking about KS exclusive stuff, but our plan is to do cosmetic or non-game defining items. The truth of the matter is, people who see "KS Exclusive" tend to be more willing to back the product now versus wait. Even if it's a cosmetic or "thank you" exclusive, people still get excited about it. So you'd be silly not to pander to that audience in some small way.

Yep its the never ending cycle of game developement, theres point when you need to say stop and start removing mechanics and ideas to make the product tighter and mechanics more elegant. With companies the limit comes from money, with projects that you are making on youre off-time theres the danger to just go on for ever. Expansion ideas are good, becuase theres pretty natural flow to start working and testing them while the production for the game itself is running and theres no design and testing work to be done. What realy bothers me these days in KS are the rules. Projects realy should publish full rules before production. Just so they could use theyre backers to test if the rules are edited to even half-decent shape. So many FAQ and rules rewrites after the fact these days, when you could just engage youre customers and give them something and benefit yourself

 

[Keasar]

Edit: A 4 player space battle/control game in the SW universe would be great though. I think the biggest hurdle is finding 4 faction choices that wouldn't be anachronistic. Rebels, Empire, and Scum and Villainy are the easy three... but what would be a 4th that wouldn't be lame or would fit the timeline?

?

I mean it's not Star Wars, in fact, it's better than Star Wars.

Spoiler

Apart from the fact that it's out of print forever.

 

[-tetsuo-]

Forbidden Stars is great but it takes forever lol

 

[BattleMonkey]

Forbidden Stars is great but it takes forever lol

Its not really that bad, Rebellion takes just as long and this better supports up to 4 players, and definitely lot shorter than playing TI.

 

[nicoga3000]

Yep its the never ending cycle of game developement, theres point when you need to say stop and start removing mechanics and ideas to make the product tighter and mechanics more elegant. With companies the limit comes from money, with projects that you are making on youre off-time theres the danger to just go on for ever. Expansion ideas are good, becuase theres pretty natural flow to start working and testing them while the production for the game itself is running and theres no design and testing work to be done. What realy bothers me these days in KS are the rules. Projects realy should publish full rules before production. Just so they could use theyre backers to test if the rules are edited to even half-decent shape. So many FAQ and rules rewrites after the fact these days, when you could just engage youre customers and give them something and benefit yourself

We intend to put up full rules and print and play (low quality) components for people when the time comes. Because I HATE when a KS doesn't include rules...

 

[jstevenson]

Rebellion is awesome, but... what?

Rebellion is a far cry from the TI experience.



To those wishing for it -- if it were gonna happen, it'd have been in lieu of the 4th edition announcement though.

Edit: A 4 player space battle/control game in the SW universe would be great though. I think the biggest hurdle is finding 4 faction choices that wouldn't be anachronistic. Rebels, Empire, and Scum and Villainy are the easy three... but what would be a 4th that wouldn't be lame or would fit the timeline?

Definitely has to be an outside the canon game.


I mean if they went legends they could go Yuuzhan Vong.

You could also look at Dathomir witches.

Trade Federation / Techno Union maybe.


The real problem is that the Scum and Villainy faction probably would have different ideas of what space battle / control looks like. I don't see them really engaging in open warfare.

 

[toddhunter]

Rebellion is awesome, but... what?

Rebellion is a far cry from the TI experience.



To those wishing for it -- if it were gonna happen, it'd have been in lieu of the 4th edition announcement though.

Edit: A 4 player space battle/control game in the SW universe would be great though. I think the biggest hurdle is finding 4 faction choices that wouldn't be anachronistic. Rebels, Empire, and Scum and Villainy are the easy three... but what would be a 4th that wouldn't be lame or would fit the timeline?

Rebels, Empire, Gungan and Ewoks. Bring new and old fans together.

 

[jstevenson]

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/8/31/star-wars-destiny-two-player-game/

Destiny 2-player game is the Force Friday surprise.

 

[BattleMonkey]

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/8/31/star-wars-destiny-two-player-game/

Destiny 2-player game is the Force Friday surprise.

Lame

 

[EYEL1NER]

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/8/31/star-wars-destiny-two-player-game/

Destiny 2-player game is the Force Friday surprise.

Awwww, fuck off FFG.
I guess I could thank them a bit for saving myself and a whole lot of others from making trips to their game stores tomorrow though, since they didn't wait until tomorrow to put out an article.
Some of those store owners who ordered three cases might be a little upset though. I wonder if it will make them think twice the next time distributors solicit blind pre-orders for a Star Wars product; odds are I will miss out on something that is actually good. I mean, these Destiny 2P starters that will still be sitting on their shelves for Force Friday next year aren't going to have them too eager to order again.

 

[AbsolutBro]

just buy Rebellion...

Friend of mine got it and we tried it. Only played once, but I wasn't a big fan. I won as rebels, but I didn't really feel like I did anything to win. It's probably a game that needs a few play throughs though. It also would not scratch nearly the same itch that TI3 does.

?

I mean it's not Star Wars, in fact, it's better than Star Wars.

Spoiler

Apart from the fact that it's out of print forever.

I keep meaning to try that game, but I guess that's going to be even more difficult now.

I mean if they went legends they could go Yuuzhan Vong.

Office_No.gif

One of the worst things ever, and completely justifies Disney blowing up the EU.

 

[Neverfade]

Rebels, Empire, Gungan and Ewoks. Bring new and old fans together.

Begone with this thoughtcrime.

Lame

Quite.

 

[AstroLad]

haha suckas i don't care about any of the other sw games or even the sw universe

goooooo destiny!

 

[fenners]

Star Wars Rebellion vs Forbidden Stars/StarCraft vs Twilight Imperium.

They're all different experiences, and I don't think either of them are good replacements for the others.

 

[jstevenson]

Awwww, fuck off FFG.
I guess I could thank them a bit for saving myself and a whole lot of others from making trips to their game stores tomorrow though, since they didn't wait until tomorrow to put out an article.
Some of those store owners who ordered three cases might be a little upset though. I wonder if it will make them think twice the next time distributors solicit blind pre-orders for a Star Wars product; odds are I will miss out on something that is actually good. I mean, these Destiny 2P starters that will still be sitting on their shelves for Force Friday next year aren't going to have them too eager to order again.

are you kidding? do you know how well Destiny sells?

 

[EYEL1NER]

are you kidding? do you know how well Destiny sells?

Probably great in large areas. I don't think it does so well near me. People play it but I've seen the same product sitting behind the counter at local stores since they were finally able to get some in. There aren't many Facebook groups here like there are for X-Wing and Armada; the main one here barely had more people than the local Armada group. The one store where I have seen people playing it doesn't order any kits or host any events for it. The area I'm talking about is the capital city for this state and hosts a large college, but the only store in the state that bothered to even order a Store Championship kit is two hours away.

It's not like I think the game is failing or will die off; it's Star Wars: it'll sell and FFG will push it. It's not big here at all though. X-Wing is huge, Armada has a dozen or so people within an hour of me who play, a few people bought into Destiny, and that's it for FFG games. An example of how weird this place is: Netrunner is huge in a lot of places. I've never seen a single person playing it in local stores and I haven't heard anyone voice interest in buying it or say they used to play it (or any other FFG LCG, for that matter); the copies of Netrunner, expansions, and data packs don't move.

 

[-tetsuo-]

I like Rebellion a lot but I have only been able to play it 2 times D:

 

[EYEL1NER]

I like Rebellion a lot but I have only been able to play it 2 times D:

Not much worse than me. I've got three games under my belt. Two losses as the Empire and a handy win as the Rebellion, all against the same opponent.

 

[Rudimental]

?

I mean it's not Star Wars, in fact, it's better than Star Wars.

Spoiler

Apart from the fact that it's out of print forever.

It's still in stock, though, and at good prices on Amazon. The only problem is that it will never get an expansion, which sounds like it would be great to change things up.

edit: though I think there are a few fan-made expansions on BGG.

 

[Experien]

Not much worse than me. I've got three games under my belt. Two losses as the Empire and a handy win as the Rebellion, all against the same opponent.

I got five under my belt!

Victory with Rebel & Empire and then a loss for Rebel & 2 for Empire. I am anxious to see how they change up the combat.

 

[BattleMonkey]

It's still in stock, though, and at good prices on Amazon. The only problem is that it will never get an expansion, which sounds like it would be great to change things up.

edit: though I think there are a few fan-made expansions on BGG.

It doesnt need expansions, its a great game.

 

[BassForever]

It doesnt need expansions, its a great game.

If its a great game then it should get expansions

 

[BattleMonkey]

If its a great game then it should get expansions

Well its not getting any? Its great as is

 

[BassForever]

Well its not getting any? Its great as is

Thats why fans made their own expansions obviously