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[soundwave05]

This is the point I've been trying to make for a while. For some visual and graphics tech doesn't matter, and that's fine. But for others, it's a potential dissapointment. For those who say the difference between 480p/720p isn't significant, why then is HDTV being pushed so hard by TV and by TV manufacturers? The difference between a DVD at 480p and a broadcast in 720p or 1080i is very significant.

If you're realistic though you'd understand that Nintendo would never use that much horsepower even if they had it. They're having trouble maxxing out the existing GCN as is.

On the N64, it was Rare, not Nintendo, that really made that hardware sweat.

 

[drohne]

i doubt there's a language in which "graphics aren't enough" doesn't really mean "we no longer intend to keep pace with sony or microsoft."

 

[littlewig]

Anyone think Nintendo could be using a different form of cooling than the PS3 and Xbox does?

Maybe a small and effective Thermal electric cooling system?

It seems like most of the bulk in the PS3 and Xbox360 come from their ineffective cooling system.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

Anyone think Nintendo could be using a different form of cooling than the PS3 and Xbox does?

I'm sure it will. The GC has an incredibly low heat output and efficient dispersion now in comparison to the Xbox. It's probably part of the reason it will last longer than either of it's competitors over the years. But it doesn't mean we should believe that contrary to what they keep hinting at, it will have some super-duper graphics chip. No matter where it comes in, it will be efficient.

soundwave is right btw, that Nintendo has not gotten all it could graphically out of the GC. That's not their first concern.

 

[Matlock]

i doubt there's a language in which "graphics aren't enough" doesn't really mean "we no longer intend to keep pace with sony or microsoft."

Who really says that graphic fidelity is their main goal?

 

[soundwave05]

Anyone think Nintendo could be using a different form of cooling than the PS3 and Xbox does?

Maybe a small and effective Thermal electric cooling system?

It seems like most of the bulk in the PS3 and Xbox360 come from their ineffective cooling system.

I think it'll actually be similar to the Dreamcast.

The Dreamcast was pretty small for its day, and today Nintendo will probably save space by using an external power supply (DC had internal I believe), no 56k modem obviously, and a thinner disc drive (they can make disc drives much smaller these days).

The DC also did not use a fan for cooling.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Anyone think Nintendo could be using a different form of cooling than the PS3 and Xbox does?

Maybe a small and effective Thermal electric cooling system?

It seems like most of the bulk in the PS3 and Xbox360 come from their ineffective cooling system.

No, they won't. Refrigerated/peltier units have condensation problems for one. Another problem is that the law of conservation of energy doesn't work. The heat doesn't disappear just b/c you use a better cooler. It just means that heat is displaced. So the cooler you get the chip, the hotter your little cooling device will get, b/c of the more energy it's dissipating. The case of the machine is too small, period. Short of 65nm chips (which use less voltage [energy] and thus run cooler) there's no fucking way it's gonna happen. The collective crownage that's gonna come from the people hopping on the nighttrain will be hilarious. This is more a leap of faith than rational thinking. PEACE.

 

[Virgin Wii]

All evidence suggests that Nintendo is attempting to approach the market in a very different fashion...and Nintendo DS is proof that you do not need to be in the same performance ballpark to succeed (it's an entire generation behind PSP, afterall). I think they are VERY pleased with the performance of DS. It is cheap to manufacture, affordable for consumers, introduces new concepts into gaming, and has been selling extremely well. I don't think they WANT to join the hardware wars.

It's not an insult of any kind, just logic.

One problem with your logic. The DS came out much too late in the game for its sales to dictate the Revs R&D.

 

[drohne]

Who really says that graphic fidelity is their main goal?

who would say "graphic fidelity" at all? painters of still lifes? film manufacturers? the fine people at monster cable? beats me!

 

[soundwave05]

No, they won't. Refrigerated/peltier units have condensation problems for one. Another problem is that the law of conservation of energy doesn't work. The heat doesn't disappear just b/c you use a better cooler. It just means that heat is displaced. So the cooler you get the chip, the hotter your little cooling device will get, b/c of the more energy it's dissipating. The case of the machine is too small, period. Short of 65nm chips (which use less voltage [energy] and thus run cooler) there's no fucking way it's gonna happen. The collective crownage that's gonna come from the people hopping on the nighttrain will be hilarious. This is more a leap of faith than rational thinking. PEACE.

Do you think something along the lines of ...

2 GHz IBM CPU
400 MHz ATi GPU
256MB RAM

Would be doable in that casing? That's probably all Nintendo needs especailly if they only need to render at 480i/p.

The Dreamcast isn't that much bigger than 3 DVD cases when you consider it had a larger disc drive than what Nintendo is likely using, an internal power supply, and an internal 56k modem hogging up space.

 

[Matlock]

who would say "graphic fidelity" at all? painters of still lifes? film manufacturers? the fine people at monster cable? beats me!

John Carmack, for one.

Face it, it's the new buzzword, and you can't stop it!

 

[drohne]

matlock, it's a sign of your originality that you're so proud of your solecisms. shine on you crazy diamond.

fyi: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=solecism

 

[Virgin Wii]

Ah crap, now dark isn't going to concede/defend his position because he's on a sarcasm trip.

 

[japtor]

Well there's a second unit out there that'd use this drive. Still not the absolutely banal drive of the GC...

Most slot loading drives destroy 8cm discs, and sometimes full sized discs. I don't think it's just a "few modifications", but I'm sure it's going to work, Nintendo's products always have a very high build quality. That isn't in question here. I just want to know how much and how, exactly.

what the hell, its like e3 all over again. the slot load drive thing was covered. apple has been using slot loads that can take in 8cm discs for a while now (powerbooks/ibooks and imacs). its not a super old thing, but its certainly not new (older imacs w/slot loads choked on small discs). in the previous thread, people have also mentioned their car cd players taking in small discs as well. the drives choke on irregularly shaped discs though, like credit card or funky star shaped discs.

price though, i have no clue. didnt find any thin slot load drives on newegg, but did see some through froogle, ranging from ~$50-150 (the ~$90 and up ones pretty much all do cd or dvd recording). dont know what kinds of prices manufacturers get on them.

Anyone think Nintendo could be using a different form of cooling than the PS3 and Xbox does?

depends on ati and ibm. if the chips can run cool enough, it shouldnt require anything exotic. at most, maybe some basic heat pipe type setup. on the exotic end of things would be liquid metal cooling i guess, but im not sure how small the setups can get, and no clue how expensive it is.

 

[God's Hand]

I'm just betting Nintendo will not release a spec sheet until they show the games. That's when specs become meaningless. Unless you're a developer and you need 512MB of RAM

 

[Spike]

Do you think something along the lines of ...

2 GHz IBM CPU
400 MHz ATi GPU
256MB RAM

Would be doable in that casing? That's probably all Nintendo needs especailly if they only need to render at 480i/p.

Definitely doable. I think the specs they'll shoot for:

3.5-4.0 GHz Single Core Processor
450MHz ATI GPU
256MB RAM for System
256MB RAM for GPU

 

[soundwave05]

Definitely doable. I think the specs they'll shoot for:

3.5-4.0 GHz Single Core Processor
450MHz ATI GPU
256MB RAM for System
256MB RAM for GPU

For 480p, I'd actually say that's overkill. In many ways that's a bigger jump than from N64-to-GCN. I certainly wouldn't complain though, heh.

 

[heidern]

The difference between a DVD at 480p and a broadcast in 720p or 1080i is very significant.

The difference between a game at 480p and a game in 720p or 1080i is totally irrelevent to the 90% of people that don't have HDTV. Well, except that 480p hardware is cheaper, so actually for 90% of people 480p is better than HDTV.

 

[Polari]

So the charade begins again. Don't you people ever learn? He knows as much as you do.

 

[Monk]

But for those of us without a hdtv? Even if I do have an hdtv, one of the tv's i currently got will be going into my bedroom, guess which I would be taking into my bedroom because the visuals wont be downgraded?

I can really see the rev becoming a bedroom system.

 

[KINGMOKU]

How the hell does a topic like this get so many replies?


1.)How many people know whats under the hood of the Revolution?-0. STFU

2.)How many people have seen in game footage?-0. STFU



3.)WAIT UNTIL SOMETHING CONCRETE IS SHOWN.

I mean FFS, we HAVE to see either IN GAME SHOTS, OR THE SPECS to even FORM AN OPINION about what the Rev can do.

It's like saying a Dodge Viper will blow the doors off of the X-car built by GM. "What's in the X-car?" "Don't know, but it's sure to suck"

Crazy ass mo-fo's.

 

[drohne]

everyone has a computer monitor, and as far as the xbox 360 is concerned, your computer monitor is an hdtv. i hope sony will follow suit. this "GRAPHICS ARE FOR THE RICH" business doesn't fly.

 

[soundwave05]

I love HDTV and can't wait to play PS3 on my HDTV set, but for what Nintendo is trying to do (and y'know to not lose like $4 billion dollars in 4 years of business :lol ), dropping HD from the Rev is not a terrible decision.

Basically it should enable them to have a reasonably similar graphical display as the PS3/X360 without needing as much raw horsepower.

A lot of the current 480p XBox games (DOOM 3, Far Cry Instincts) look very nice and quite clean, throw in some better anti-aliasing on the Rev, and you'll likely have some pretty nice image quality.

 

[Monk]

Please, if I had a choice between my 29 inch tv versus my 19 inch monitor, the tv will win. Whoever hopes that people will use the monitor for hd or even regular gaming is in for a rude shock.

 

[Letter to Elise]

Honestly if it comes out after the 360 then it better be more powerful. Otherwise Nintendo is behind the curve IMO.

If they intend to compete, DS or no DS, they should bring out what is good for the gamer tech-wise.



That said, I still see no reason to support or doubt them in this. Nothing beyond the controller and size of the REV has been announced. Most in this thread seem to bringing their preconceptions both positive and negative.

 

[Monk]

Honestly if it comes out after the 360 then it better be more powerful. Otherwise Nintendo is behind the curve IMO.

You are going tto be dissapointed if you think that the Rev will be more powerful than the 360. Even the biggest nintendork wont argue that the Rev will be more powerful.

 

[littlewig]

You are going tto be dissapointed if you think that the Rev will be more powerful than the 360. Even the biggest nintendork wont argue that the Rev will be more powerful.

Pff, Xbox360 will look like a PS2 compared to GC once the Revolution is released.


*Logic is defied, and then redefined by this post*

 

[Speevy]

Don't worry folks.

The system will have the advanced physics and HDR lighting that are necessary for Wario's Onion-Chopping Simulator.

 

[Letter to Elise]

You are going tto be dissapointed if you think that the Rev will be more powerful than the 360. Even the biggest nintendork wont argue that the Rev will be more powerful.

If you got that from my post, I'm not sure how. My point is that we should expect them to be more powerful. Otherwise they are behind the curve.

While the controller is intriguing, I still don't think games need to be saved by some sort of paradigm shift.

I happen to love games now.

No matter what though, once Zelda Revolution comes out I will purchase one - underpowered or not.

 

[imastalker co.]

You are going tto be dissapointed if you think that the Rev will be more powerful than the 360.

but what about those that are only expecting revolution to pretty much be a 480p xbox 360 ; )

do you guys think it's possible for nintendo to bust out that much power into something of that size a year after the 360 comes out? i'd bet on it. i know there's others out here that would take that bet as well.

 

[Letter to Elise]

but what about those that are only expecting revolution to pretty much be a 480p xbox 360 ; )

do you guys think it's possible for nintendo to bust that out a year after the 360 comes out at that size?

Again to me, that's a huge letdown.

 

[Drinky Crow]

Call me when I'm right:

1.6 GHz PPC CPU
upclocked Flipper variant with R500-series DX8 feature support at 300 Mhz
256 MB system RAM; 64 MB 1T-SRAM

(mostly 'cuz of backwards compatibility with the GC)

This oughtta be good. Will I own Johnny again?

 

[soundwave05]

No matter what though, once Zelda Revolution comes out I will purchase one - underpowered or not.

Do you seriously think even if the Rev had a chipset identical to the PS3, that Nintendo would use all that horsepower for Zelda Revolution?

At some point the budgets of these games becomes a reality too.

Last time I checked it costs $80-100 million dollars easily to make a movie like Toy Story.

 

[Spike]

If you got that from my post, I'm not sure how. My point is that we should expect them to be more powerful. Otherwise they are behind the curve.

So, you really expect that the Rev should be more powerful than the X360, yet they're going to sell it at a price that is reasonable to the non-gamers to entice them to get into gaming?

This isn't Sega we're talking about here.

While the controller is intriguing, I still don't think games need to be saved by some sort of paradigm shift.

I think that there needs to be something new brought into gaming instead of the same games on better hardware with better graphics.

I happen to love games now.

That's good. Then enjoy the PS3/X360. I'll enjoy the Revolution. And we can all live happily ever after.

The thing is that everyone is different. What's good for one person, isn't necessarily good for someone else. The Rev seems to be bringing something "different" to the industry. What's so wrong with that? I'm not saying I'm in love with the Rev. Just, that I like what I've seen so far. The controller. I'm intrigued to learn more, because I keep thinking about what would be cool with the controller, then I think what guys like Miyamoto, Kojima, and Naka could come up with. It's interesting to me.

 

[soundwave05]

I like the Revolution a lot more at this point than I did the GameCube, even though we knew the GameCube would be as good/better than the PS2 in terms of visuals.

I think the Revolution will be a much more interesting game machine, even if its not exactly on par with the competition (like the GameCube was) in terms of visuals. The GameCube had nice graphics, but I found it to be a lot more boring and dull than the N64 was.

 

[Letter to Elise]

There is far far too much defensive attack-dog like mentality here.

Everyone is not out to get you. Its like you cannot even express an opinion here anymore.

Lighten up. Enjoy what you like, but please don't expect everyone to conform.

At this point you are going after someone who is getting a Revolution. I feel bad for those who aren't interested at all. They'll be stoned to death or something by this mob mentality.

^_^

 

[Spike]

There is far far too much defensive attack-dog like mentality here.

Everyone is not out to get you. Its like you cannot even express an opinion here anymore.

Lighten up. Enjoy what you like, but please don't expect everyone to conform.

^_^

The problem is that we know shit about the system except for the controller, and what the actual unit looks like.

To be proclaiming it as underpowered, without knowing one single spec, or seeing one actual game, is beyond silly.

At this point you are going after someone who is getting a Revolution. I feel bad for those who aren't interested at all. They'll be stoned to death or something by this mob mentality.

No one is going after anyone. The thing is that we don't know anything. So how can you say if it'll be more or less powerful than X360 or PS3 and try and base that on the DS vs. PSP situation?

 

[Letter to Elise]

The problem is that we know shit about the system except for the controller, and what the actual unit looks like.

To be proclaiming it as underpowered, without knowing one single spec, or seeing one actual game, is beyond silly.

I'm sorry - where did I make any claim like that? I said that we should expect it to be more powerful than a system that releases before it. Instead I get people giving me reasons why it shouldn't (appealing to non-gamers, dev budgets) Personally I dont care about that. I am a gamer that is spending cash.

I want the best and I'm not sure why that is so anathema to some here. I have no idea what the specs are. I am telling you what logically should be expected from any company bringing out a home console after another has been released.

If this is too sensitive of an issue to some of you, please let me extend my apologies. I mean no malice here.

 

[soundwave05]

I'm sorry - where did I make any claim like that? I said that we should expect it to be more powerful than a system that releases before it. Instead I get people giving me reasons why it shouldn't (appealing to non-gamers, dev budgets) Personally I dont care about that. I am a gamer that is spending cash.

I want the best and I'm not sure why that is so anathema to some here. I have no idea what the specs are. I am telling you what logically should be expected from any company bringing out a home console after another has been released.

Given reality though, you shouldn't expect that.

Just because Microsoft's game division can blow $4 billion of "Daddy Gates'" money, doesn't mean Nintendo can be expected to follow suit.

MS has already said upfront they don't expect to make any money off XBox 360 for the first two years (which in reality means they're not going to make any money off it for 3-4 years, if at all).

If you're going to make a console and you want casual/non-gamers to like it and you went to all the trouble of making an entirely new controller based on that concept, the first way to screw up all that hard work is to charge $300-$400 for the system itself.

That's way too expensive for what Nintendo wants to do. But it doesn't mean Revolution games are going to look horrible either. The Rev should still be able to run most any PS3/X360 engine with only a few sacrificies here and there.

 

[Synbios459]

You guys also have to remember, the XBOX360 and PS3s games are most likely going to be more expensive then the Revs games.

 

[Spike]

Actually, Johnny touched on it in one of his posts.

I think that the reason Nintendo hasn't announced any specs is because they still haven't nailed them down just yet. I believe that they have a fairly solid idea of what the minimum spec should be, but in a year's time from now, they might be able to squeeze a little more into the system.

Look at it this way. If the X360 Core System costs the user $300 in November 2005, then if the Rev in 2006 offers the same technology, it should cost less, no? It would be much easier in a year's time to get that kind of technology in a smaller package and at a cheaper price.

Time will tell.

 

[Monk]

Call me when I'm right:

1.6 GHz PPC CPU
upclocked Flipper variant with R500-series DX8 feature support at 300 Mhz
256 MB system RAM; 64 MB 1T-SRAM

(mostly 'cuz of backwards compatibility with the GC)

This oughtta be good. Will I own Johnny again?

That wont be right since its the wrong ratio(gc is 1:3 between the Flipper and gekko)

I am guessing 1.44 GHz PPC CPU
486MHz Flipper variant
128 MB it-sram <-I think is guaranteed, 3 MB gpu embedded

I am guessing my prediction is wrong too since CPU's can divide into different clockspeeds so a 1:6 ratio is possible.

So 1.9GHz PPC
324MHz Flipper
128MB or 256MB its ram(most likely 128) and 3MB or 6 MB gpu embedded ram(guessing 3mb)

Bah, too many possibilities, but one thing is for sure, it wond be as powerful on the spec sheet as the Xbox 360.

 

[Yamauchi]

No, not fixed. The PS2 was not far behind technologically speaking. It was more than capable of matching and, occasionally, exceeding the other machines on the market. To suggest otherwise is foolish and fanboy-ish.

The PS2 does compete with XBOX and Gamecube from a technology standpoint.

DS does not compete with PSP from a technology standpoint, but it clearly does not matter.

I'm not suggesting that Revolution is going to follow the same route as the DS either. I was simply suggesting that Nintendo themselves has experienced success without top end hardware with the DS.

Are you a joke character?

 

[gamergirly]

You guys also have to remember, the XBOX360 and PS3s games are most likely going to be more expensive then the Revs games.

Money is definitely going to play a role....

 

[Spike]

Let me ask it this way:

If the Revolution is as powerful as Sega's Lindbergh specs, would anyone have a problem with that?

I know I wouldn't. Not after seeing VF5 and AfterBurner.

 

[soundwave05]

Yeah I agree that Nintendo probably has not finalized the chipset, simply because it'd be silly to finalize the chipset now.

Granted they probably have a base idea of what performance they want and can easily just send out some dev kits with a basic IBM CPU and an ATi Radeon whatever GPU, but since Revolution is not likely to be out for another year or so, they likely still have a lot of time to work with the chipset and the benefit of dropping technology costs and smaller/cooler chips.

A Lindberg level chipset would not be too shabby for me at all. Something on that level is still has a shitload of visual "kick". I wouldn't be surprised actually if the Rev, because of its design efficency can pump out graphics even slightly better than Lindbergh even with a modest looking spec sheet.

Hell, I still think Super GT looks pretty good to this day. You can still have very good looking graphics without breaking the bank, I think. ATi/IBM will give Nintendo something that render some gorgeous graphics, especailly if it only has to worry to about a 480p resolution, of that I'm not really worried.

 

[imastalker co.]

If the X360 Core System costs the user $300 in November 2005, then if the Rev in 2006 offers the same technology, it should cost less, no? It would be much easier in a year's time to get that kind of technology in a smaller package and at a cheaper price.

someone just photoshop a breakdancing Miyamoto into that picture and we're in business.

 

[soundwave05]

The XBox 360 core system doesn't cost $300 to make for starters.

Secondly, its more of a ploy by MS to have the $299.99 price point (sort of).

They're probably going to have a limited amount of "core" systems so they can only lose so much money by offering the core system.

 

[Spike]

The XBox 360 core system doesn't cost $300 to make for starters.

Doesn't matter how much it costs to make now. It matter how much it costs to make next year, when the Rev launches. I'm sure it'll be less. And Nintendo can price the system at, say, $200 and lose less per each unit sold.

 

[Leatherface]

Would you really be that upset if the Revolution could maybe do this:

Just at 480p with some decent anti-aliasing and maybe a few sacrifices to background details here and there?

If that's not good enough for you, I think you're really asking for way too much out what likely is going to be a $200 piece of tech with a more expensive controller.

I know I'd be as happy as a pig in shit if Nintendo pulls that off.