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[NH Apache]

Appropriate background music for the read: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvnxvmSwcbA

Statues of Confederate leaders Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis are targeted for removal in New Orleans, after a federal appeals court approved the city's plan to change how it treats symbols of its history. Opponents of the move vow to keep fighting it in court.

When Mayor Mitch Landrieu called for the city to remove the statue of Lee back in 2015, he said, "There may have been a time when that monument reflected who we were as a city, but times change. And so do we," as member station WWNO reported. The city has said it wants to place the monuments in a new area.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...ign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20170307

Hot topic down here right now. The Lee statue in Lee Circle is at the center of the controversy.

The Mayor credits Wynton Marsalis (Your background music and from the cornerstone New Orleans family) with the inspiration to remove the statues:

When one surveys the accomplishments of our local heroes across time from Iberville and Bienville, to Andrew Jackson, from Mahalia Jackson, to Anne Rice and Fats Domino, from Wendell Pierce, to John Besh and Jonathan Batiste, what did Robert E. Lee do to merit his distinguished position? He fought for the enslavement of a people against our national army fighting for their freedom; killed more Americans than any opposing general in history; made no attempt to defend or protect this city; and even more absurdly, he never even set foot in Louisiana. In the heart of the most progressive and creative cultural city in America, why should we continue to commemorate this legacy?

Many people cite this famous letter that Lee wrote as the counter argument, that he signed up because he felt he had to to protect his home state:


Letter to His Son: January 23, 1861
Robert E. Lee

I received Everett's Life of Washington which you sent me, and enjoyed its perusal. How his spirit would be grieved could he see the wreck of his mighty labors! I will not, however, permit myself to believe, until all ground of hope is gone, that the fruit of his noble deeds will be destroyed, and that his precious advice and virtuous example will so soon be forgotten by his countrymen. As far as I can judge by the papers, we are between a state of anarchy and civil war. May God avert both of these evils from us! I fear that mankind will not for years be sufficiently Christianized to bear the absence of restraint and force. I see that four states have declared themselves out of the Union; four more will apparently follow their example. Then, if the border states are brought into the gulf of revolution, one half of the country will be arrayed against the other. I must try and be patient and await the end, for I can do nothing to hasten or retard it.

The South, in my opinion, has been aggrieved by the acts of the North, as you say. I feel the aggression and am willing to take every proper step for redress . It is the principle I contend for, not individual or private benefit. As an American citizen, I take great pride in my country, her prosperity and institutions, and would defend any state if her rights were invaded. But I can anticipate no greater calamity for the country than a dissolution of the Union. It would be an accumulation of all the evils we complain of, and I am willing to sacrifice everything but honor for its preservation. I hope, therefore, that all constitutional means will be exhausted before there is a resort to force. Secession is nothing but revolution. The framers of our Constitution never exhausted so much labor, wisdom, and forbearance in its formation, and surrounded it with so many guards and securities, if it was intended to be broken by every member of the Confederacy at will. It was intended for ”perpetual union," so expressed in the preamble, and for the establishment of a government, not a compact, which can only be dissolved by revolution or the consent of all the people in convention assembled. It is idle to talk of secession. Anarchy would have been established, and not a government, by Washington, Hamilton, Jefferson, Madison, and the other patriots of the Revolution. . . . Still, a Union that can only be maintained by swords and bayonets, and in which strife and civil war are to take the place of brotherly love and kindness, has no charm for me. I shall mourn for my country and for the welfare and progress of mankind. If the Union is dissolved, and the government disrupted, I shall return to my native state and share the miseries of my people; and, save in defense, will draw my sword on none.

Arguments are on both sides, some say removing the statues is removing a part of history, some say it is the right time because of the rise in this bullshit white nationalist fervor.

GAF, should they go?

In my opinion,

 

[Makonero]

Remove those traitors. We should never celebrate treason.

Reconstruction was a mess.

 

[Earthstrike]

Remove those traitors. We should never celebrate treason.

Reconstruction was a mess.

Let's cut to the chase. We shouldn't praise people who fought to eliminate a state's right to abolish slavery.

 

[PixelatedBookake]

Nah bruh, get rid of it. Confederate shit shouldn't be respected or honored

 

[InfiniteBento]

Destroy that nonsense and never look back

 

[Jackpot]

Many people cite this famous letter that Lee wrote as the counter argument, that he signed up because he felt he had to to protect his home state:

That argument quickly falls to pieces if you look beyond that letter.

 

[Darryl M R]

Traitors and their ilk receiving monuments instead of the punishment they deserved. Remove the filth.

 

[Inferno313]

Remove those traitors. We should never celebrate treason.

Reconstruction was a mess.

Always absurd that the group of Americans who most loudly scream about "patriotism" tend to be the same group that flies the flag of a nation of traitors. Racist, traitorous, losers at that.

 

[Skellig Gra]

If you squint you could maybe find a reason to keep the Lee statue, but not Davis.

 

[Derwind]

They shouldn't be celebrated.

Keeping an account of history and celebrating the figures that were a part of that history are two entirely different things.

 

[metalslimer]

I don't care what justification Lee gave. The confederacy was trash built upon hatred and greed and we should never honor that. Put it in a musuem

Also if it was up to me the street names should be erased as well. The South should have never been allowed to idolize traitors. Look where we are now

 

[The Kree]

Take down the statues while you keep gerrymandering districts. That'll keep 'em distracted for sure.

 

[Pagusas]

I get how the Lee letter can sway some, but we have to judge people by their actions, not their words or intentions.

 

[ahoyhoy]

I don't care what justification Lee gave. The confederacy was trash built upon hatred and greed and we should never honor that. Put it in a musuem

Indeed. Basically akin to saying there were some "Good Nazis". It has no place and is completely disrespectful.

 

[EMT0]

Shame that that statue in the OP honors a bastard, because it actually looks really nice.

 

[Frozenprince]

The Confederate States were a dissonant faction to a bloody and long civil war directly caused by their actions. Their states rights were beholden to take slaves, their great crusade worth sending hundreds of thousands of men to bleed and die was to own another man in shackles.

They should be remembered, yes, but not venerated. The statue is ridiculous. Lee was a traitor, who abandoned the union army at the eleventh hour to deplete and destroy their command structure. He deserves no statues nor accolades nor veneration. He betrayed his oaths and his purported beliefs to stand among and fight among traitors.

Jefferson Davis should have been shot and killed for high treason. Ay least Lee one can make a passable if flawed argument for his morals, Davis was an avowed racist directly responsible for the worst mass losses of life in Western society since Hannibal took the alps.

 

[pxleyes]

Shame that that statue in the OP honors a bastard, because it actually looks really nice.

They don't need to turn it into scrap metal. Just toss it in a museum collection.

 

[Frozenprince]

They don't need to turn it into scrap metal. Just toss it in a museum collection.

It would look fine in an American history museum. Just not as a celebratory statue in the middle of a major city.

 

[Morat]

Get rid of it. These people were unsuccessful rebels who fought to maintain a slave economy.

Edit

Put them in a museum, as they are historical artifacts; they don't need to be in the bloody center of your city

 

[Marvie_3]

I don't care what justification Lee gave. The confederacy was trash built upon hatred and greed and we should never honor that. Put it in a musuem

Also if it was up to me the street names should be erased as well. The South should have never been allowed to idolize traitors. Look where we are now

This. All this confederate garbage needs to go.

 

[The Albatross]

I think Jefferson Davis is clear, and I don't really understand the connection to Lee and New Orleans. It would seem he has virtually no connection to Louisiana, so if I lived there I'd be squarely on the "Rename the square and take down the statue" side.

That said, I'm not as cut and dry on the legacy of Robert E. Lee than most will probably be in this forum. As a proud northerner, I'm strongly against any celebrations of the confederacy, as I think it's stupid to celebrate traitorous losers who seceded from my country on the basis of making black people slaves (and Lincoln is, in my opinion, the greatest statesman in world history). But, I view Lee as most of his biographers do: the most celebrated antebellum general in the United States Army, who felt duty-bound to his state at a time when statesmen identified themselves by the state they were from, rather than the country.

Lee also insisted on the surrender of the Confederate army against the wishes of many of his generals once the war was lost. In as far as there was an anti-slavery Confederate general, Lee was just that. I don't think this makes him any sort of hero or somebody you should name squares, highways, and buildings after, but I think that Lee is the Confederacy's Rommel, a celebrated general who felt more duty bound to a territory than he did the destructive mission of its leadership.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

This is one of those situations that is kinda hard to parse if you don't live in New Orleans. These aren't individuals that shouldn't necessarily be celebrated, but they're part of the city's history, both the statues themselves and the individuals that adorn them, so removing them is like removing part of the city's history.

 

[The Kree]

This is one of those situations that is kinda hard to parse if you don't live in New Orleans. These aren't individuals that shouldn't necessarily be celebrated, but they're part of the city's history, both the statues themselves and the individuals that adorn them, so removing them is like removing part of the city's history.

So what. Put them in a museum.

 

[rjinaz]

Shame that that statue in the OP honors a bastard, because it actually looks really nice.

I like the tall pillar. I think they need to remove any mentions of confederates and turn the display into something else.

 

[MarionCB]

They should never have been installed. They should be removed. Traitors the lot of them, made worse that their treason was in defence of slavery. I have particular contempt for Lee, who hides his crimes behind the facade of an "honorable gentleman".

 

[Somnid]

I think this is a just a sensitivity phase brought on by the recent rise in white nationalism. From the historical perspective most big names were responsible for killing lots of people and go back far enough everyone believed in slavery or owned slaves and you wouldn't bat an eye at most of those statues but mostly people have just lost the context for it because it's so far away. Clearly the history needs to be preserved but we can reduce the iconification a bit at least until such a point when people can handle it as history and not identity.

 

[Sobriquet]

The Confederate monument can't be removed from my city because the North Carolina general assembly made a law preventing removal of Confederate memorials. LAST YEAR. 😡

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

I think this is a just a sensitivity phase brought on by the recent rise in white nationalism. From the historical perspective most big names were responsible for killing lots of people and go back far enough everyone believed in slavery or owned slaves and you wouldn't bat an eye at most of those statues but mostly people have just lost the context for it because it's so far away. Clearly the history needs to be preserved but we can reduce the iconification a bit at least until such a point when people can handle it as history and not identity.

The Confederates were the ones who spilled blood and rebelled to preserve slavery. That's an important distinction as to why it's okay to have statues of Washington and Jefferson but not Davis or Lee.

 

[Lister]

I think a Museum, is indeed the right place for them. I would hate to see the statues destroyed. They are artistic and cultural artifacts.

Good way to teach leassons about the past and how wrong we sometimes can be.

 

[fredrancour]

I think this is a just a sensitivity phase brought on by the recent rise in white nationalism. From the historical perspective most big names were responsible for killing lots of people and go back far enough everyone believed in slavery or owned slaves and you wouldn't bat an eye at most of those statues but mostly people have just lost the context for it because it's so far away. Clearly the history needs to be preserved but we can reduce the iconification a bit at least until such a point when people can handle it as history and not identity.

well yeah. It can be handled as history inside a museum. we shouldn't be putting the leaders of the greatest act of treason in american history on literal pedestals in our town squares. The "every great person does effed-up things" argument doesn't hold water here when the end-goal of the confederacy was the permanent continuance of slavery. It's pretty much a situation with zero redeeming factors.

 

[Lister]

well yeah. It can be handled as history inside a museum. we shouldn't be putting the leaders of the greatest act of treason in american history on literal pedestals in our town squares. The "every great person does effed-up things" argument doesn't hold water here when the end-goal of the confederacy was the permanent continuance of slavery. It's pretty much a situation with zero redeeming factors.

"It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of 'em was one kinda sombitch or another."

- Malcom Reynolds.

 

[Cocaloch]

New Orleans is in no way, shape, or form the most progressive city in America. What an odd thing to say.

 

[Matt]

Destroy them, and blow up Stone Mountain while you are at it.

Veneration of the Confederacy and its icons is ridiculous.

 

[shintoki]

I'm fine with a museum. It can go next to the Nazi bits as a reminder of the past.

But it's not a treasure or something of pride. It's a traitors cause.

 

[NH Apache]

New Orleans is in no way, shape, or form the most progressive city in America. What an odd thing to say.

"the most progressive and creative cultural city"

Progressive culture is what he is talking about and I don't think he is wrong at all.

 

[Protein]

They're infrin-gin' on ma heritage and destroying ma ancestry, yet they shove gay, black, and Hispanic culture down ma throat. White men are being driven from extinction by socialism, gay marriage, and political correctness.

 

[mclem]

Admittedly showing some ignorance here, but is that the park from Gabriel Knight?

 

[Fuchsdh]

I'm all for leaving statues where they are and putting another plaque. But why in god's name did this ever go to court? A city and its citizens have the right to add or remove statues, monuments, parks and whatever at will. Even with historical preservation arguments that doesn't interfere with the city's plan to move them.

Also, the people sending death threats and damaging people's property over this are jackasses, though that should go without saying.

That argument quickly falls to pieces if you look beyond that letter.

It's an argument for Lee's legacy, but it doesn't have any real relevance on the statue, especially since Lee is still not that germane to New Orleans. I appreciate the guy's fealty to his state and the morals of his decision... but he absolutely made the wrong one, and if he'd fought for the Union cause or stayed out of it entirely the war would have ended a hell of a lot sooner.

 

[wisdom0wl]

Yeah, I don't care if Lee signed up to protect his home state. Still a traitor regardless. Put it in a museum

 

[terrdactycalsrock]

Always absurd that the group of Americans who most loudly scream about "patriotism" tend to be the same group that flies the flag of a nation of traitors. Racist, traitorous, losers at that.

Ive always found this really intresting as well. I think to them the confederte flag is a symbol of indivudal rebellion instead of treason. Doesnt make it any better though

 

[Fuchsdh]

Ive always found this really intresting as well. I think to them the confederte flag is a symbol of indivudal rebellion instead of treason. Doesnt make it any better though

I mean, if you take this to its extreme, to Brits the US is flying the flag of traitors too. And Scots flying the St. Andrews Cross is just honoring a side that lost three hundred years ago.

 

[Akainu]

Seriously, can someone point me to a hitler ave or stalin street? Why are we naming anything after confederates and giving them statues?

 

[Omegasquash]

Let's stop calling the Union anything but the United States.

Let's stop calling the Confederation anything but traitors.

 

[Cocaloch]

I get how the Lee letter can sway some, but we have to judge people by their actions, not their words or intentions.

I think we should take the statue down, but lets not act like we actually disentangle actions and intentions. As a society we rarely do, and this is institutionalized in our legal structure.

Let's stop calling the Union anything but the United States.

Let's stop calling the Confederation anything but traitors.

I think this language is pretty problematic. Besides the fact that taking issue with "traitors" is fairly hypocritical from Americans, it also sidelines the issue of slavery. The south wasn't wrong because they wanted to break away. They were wrong because they wanted to have a state that supported slavery.

I mean, if you take this to its extreme, to Brits the US is flying the flag of traitors too. And Scots flying the St. Andrews Cross is just honoring a side that lost three hundred years ago.

What war exactly did Scotland lose three hundred years ago? Neither the '15 or the '45 were Scottish national wars. Scotland was not a conquered nation.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Yeah I'm a museum type person for these things. I imagine it doesn't seem to mesh well with a lot of my other opinions, and I've been called out on it before, but I just have mixed feelings about destroying monuments, not because I think they belong where they currently are but because I think it's important to hang on to examples of the kinds of things our culture chose to honor. I guess sort of like how I think it was better to preserve Manzanar as a national park than to tear it down. Preserve the concrete examples and let the judgement of history be harder to avoid.

All things considered, they absolutely should not be on public display. There was a time in American history where bullshit revisionism stepped in to preserve the honor of both sides, but the absolute byproduct of this was the smothering and intimidation of the black community. Like so many things in the South, most of us whites go about our days not even thinking about what's on display and what it says about us and our cities because in reality these supposed heroes are no more relevant to our daily lives than Colonel Sanders. I just don't think you can be seen as anything but disingenuous when you claim to be progressive but won't stop displaying things that aren't just offensive at face value but summon up to the surface the reality of everything that's happened to black people in the following 140 years.

Of course New Orleans in general is a complex place with a long complex relationship with race, its own history, and wrestling with what parts of itself it should preserve and destroy. But the fact is, when you have a statue of Lee visible from the Interstate, and all you have to commemorate Plessy v. Ferguson is a 2' plaque on the side of some train tracks, you're sending a message whether it was intentional or not.

 

[Cocaloch]

"the most progressive and creative cultural city"

Progressive culture is what he is talking about and I don't think he is wrong at all.

New Orleans does not have the most progressive culture in the country. The only thing it seems to be particularly left of on average is sexuality and certain kinds of issues related to gender. I honestly cannot imagine thinking New Orleans has the most progressive culture in the country unless the only other cities you've been to are Lafayette and Baton Rouge.

They should never have been installed. They should be removed. Traitors the lot of them, made worse that their treason was in defence of slavery. I have particular contempt for Lee, who hides his crimes behind the facade of an "honorable gentleman".

The fact that they were traitors is not made worse by the support for slavery.The support for slavery is the actual issue.

Yeah, I don't care if Lee signed up to protect his home state. Still a traitor regardless. Put it in a museum

Being a traitor isn't the issue.

 

[Slayven]

Good, 90% of the time these monuments were put up in retaliation for the civil rights movement . Just to let them know they were still niggers

 

[FyreWulff]

I don't care if he felt he had to fight for his state first. His state was fighting to keep slavery. And most of these monuments showed up during the Civil Rights era as pushback. I mean holy shit, the entire point of this monument in particular is to show him as above everyone else.

Ive always found this really intresting as well. I think to them the confederte flag is a symbol of indivudal rebellion instead of treason. Doesnt make it any better though

Individual rebellion? It was a military flag. A collective rebellion.

 

[diaspora]

Statues of Confederates are fine so long as they're statues of them being hanged.

 

[Omegasquash]

I think this language is pretty problematic. Besides the fact that taking issue with "traitors" is fairly hypocritical from Americans, it also sidelines the issue of slavery. The south wasn't wrong because they wanted to break away. They were wrong because they wanted to have a state that supported slavery.

Eh, that's what someone who commits treason is called. I'm AOK changing that to "racist terrorists" or "treasonous slavers".

"Racist, treasonous slavers" is probably much more applicable.