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[SonGoku]

Multi platforms have already to make a potato PC version. So it wouldn't be that much of a change. I'd be more concerned if it didn't include a PCIe SSD.

AAA studios target and prioritize consoles: they design their games around console hardware, PC just gets cheap ports with settings cranked up
Its crazy people think PCs will somehow become the lead platform next gen.

That's my guess as well.

XSS $299
XSX $499

PS5 is the wildcard. I am guessing $399-449 because Sony wants to stay competitive on price.

I don't think Lockart can be $150 cheaper than PS5, $100 at best

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

So do we think we'll see or hear about Lockhart this coming week or just a announcement of when we will?

 

[FranXico]

account suspended what happened?

The tweet which is now unavailable included an audio excerpt of JL saying that the GPU TF are not conclusive of how the two consoles will perform. There's too many differences that make it difficult to predict performance in every situation. He further extends this point to the SSDs.

Not difficult to imagine this becoming controversial for certain people.

 

[Tetragrammaton_Knight]

Lockhart $300

Book. It.

If PS5 moves to $500, then $300 for XSS would be a perfect price. Just enough to undercut and sell more.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Also, MS could have signed some hard future contract long time ago with specific prices for most of the components. Who knows.

Sony could have done the same thing. According to that rumor that SSD was supposed to be available at the end of last year.

So $399 is what Sony has targeted for release in 2019, trying to undercut MS and go next-gen earlier.

So what stopped them?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

AAA studios target and prioritize consoles: they design their games around console hardware, PC just gets cheap ports with settings cranked up
Its crazy people think PCs will somehow become the lead platform next gen.

I don't think Lockart can be $150 cheaper than PS5, $100 at best

Like I said MS will subsidize lockhart with higher margins on XSX

 

[Fake]

So do we think we'll see or hear about Lockhart this coming week or just a announcement of when we will?

May is upon us and Phil indeed talk about Lockhart info soon.

 

[SonGoku]

Like I said MS will subsidize lockhart with higher margins on XSX

This only works if xsx sells more or similarly. But if lockart outsells xsx 4 to 1 any profit they make on xsx will mean jackshit

 

[pawel86ck]

OK, you have my attention.....

What are the specs?

If MS want to replace xbox one x with lockhart I would expect 6 TF instead of 4 TF. I remember what MS has said in regards to XSX and their aim was to build 2x faster GPU. They didnt wanted to base their performance estimations on architecture gains, and that's why they aimed at 2x more TFLOPs. If XSS will replace Xbox One X it will be probably 6 TF, because they will also not take into account any architecture gains.

 

[Tetragrammaton_Knight]

Sony could have done the same thing. According to that rumor that SSD was supposed to be available at the end of last year.

So what stopped them?

Lots of theories, but nobody knows. My best guess is that they got insider info on XSX GPU being 12TFlops somewhere in 2018. So if they would release 8Tfs PS5 in 2019, then 12Tflops XSX would came only a year later and dominate the whole generation for the next 5-6 years. Which was unacceptable for Sony, so they got back to the drawing board and did everything to make their chip faster. But that's just my guess. Maybe somewhere down the line, 10-20 years from now some engineer will tell the whole story of what happened during PS5 development and we will know the truth.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I don't think Lockart can be $150 cheaper than PS5, $100 at best

My prediction.

XSS: 300$ (Based off what HeisenbergFX4 said)
PS5: 400$ - 450$ (Based off Bloomberg)
XSX: 500$ (Based off what Zhug said)

Will even predict that the Dual Sense will be more expensive than the Series X controller.

 

[MasterCornholio]

dominate the whole generation for the next 5-6 years.

So Sony scared of Xbox? If they launched a cheaper system a year earlier they would have such a huge sales lead that Xbox could never hope to catch it.

So I honestly don't believe it was because of that.

My theory is that a piece of hardware wouldn't be ready so they had to delay the release of the system so they could release it. Something similar happened to the PS3 and it's Blu Ray diode.

Now discussing that leak a little further it seems like it's built off GitHub. Especially the 8TF number because I remembered people said the GPU couldn't be clocked at 2GHZ so 8TFs was the actual number. Also I find it curious how the leaker claimed to know alot about Xbox but said that he didn't alot of information on Sonys plans. If I were to guess it appears that someone who is an Xbox insider got their hands on the GitHub leak before became public knowledge. Just my thoughts on that leak.

 

[SonGoku]

. My best guess is that they got insider info on XSX GPU being 12TFlops somewhere in 2018. So if they would release 8Tfs PS5 a year earlier, then 12Tflops XSX would came only a year later and dominate the whole generation for next 5-6 years

Consoles designs aren't reactionary to online rumors, the design/spec goals are set 4 years in advance and specs locked 2 years before launch.
Its as unrealistic as the theory that MS slapped a off the shelf SSD into XSX as a reactionary measure to PS5.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Linux and Windows for me. Mostly linux though and I use Ubuntu and Kali.

I have 2 computers in my home that run Windows and linux dual boot. I use Ununtu while the rest of my family use Windows.

I use Kali at work for the obvious reasons. With a Win VM installed of course lol.

I remember using Ubuntu back in 2005-2006, it was 3-4 times faster and lighter than crappy XP.

Yamauchi and PD aint got no time for that type of distraction.

Not sure though, Forza Horizon is probably the only console seller for Xbox around here.

Lockhart $300

Book. It.

I can see cheeky Kaz laughing in the background

I'm more than sure Sony would go wild and hit the $400 mark to make both of them irrelevant.

 

[Tetragrammaton_Knight]

So Sony scared of Xbox? If they launched a cheaper system a year earlier they would have such a huge sales lead that Xbox could never hope to catch it.

So I honestly don't believe it was because of that.

My theory is that a piece of hardware wouldn't be ready so they had to delay the release of the system so they could release it. Something similar happened to the PS3 and it's Blu Ray diode.

Now discussing that leak a little further it seems like it's built off GitHub. Especially the 8TF number because I remembered people said the GPU couldn't be clocked at 2GHZ so 8TFs was the actual number. Also I find it curious how the leaker claimed to know alot about Xbox but said that he didn't alot of information on Sonys plans. If I were to guess it appears that someone who is an Xbox insider got their hands on the GitHub leak before became public knowledge. Just my thoughts on that leak.

Like I said, it is just my guess. There are a lot of theories floating around like: PS5 initial chip had Jaguar CPU cores and they found them too slow, so had to rebuild with Zen 2 cores or that AMD had failed to deliver working chip on time, etc.

Also, this leak came before GitHub and is definitely not based on it. Furthermore GitHub leak had more advanced 2Ghz chip mentioned for PS5 (9.2Tflops) and no info on Lockhart at all, which further proves that initial leak came from other sources.

 

[LED Guy?]

account suspended what happened?

There, I have fixed it, because I have "Privated" my account so that I'm afraid of this whole TLOU 2 leak to get in my timeline, but now you can see my tweet.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Like I said, it is just my guess. There are a lot of theories floating around like: PS5 initial chip had Jaguar CPU cores and they found them too slow, so had to rebuild with Zen 2 cores or that AMD had failed to deliver working chip on time, etc.

Also, this leak came before GitHub and is definitely not based on it. Furthermore GitHub leak had more advanced 2Ghz chip mentioned for PS5 (9.2Tflops) and no info on Lockhart at all, which further proves that initial leak came from other sources.

So apparently an Xbox insider had detailed information on Sonys hardware?

That sounds like he probably got Sonys info from AMD.

You do have to find it odd that this person who knew Microsoft's plans in detail would also know about Sonys.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Its as unrealistic as the theory that MS slapped a off the shelf SSD into XSX as a reactionary measure to PS5.

Especially with all the customizations that they have in their I/O solution. Granted it wasn't a focus for them like Sony but it certainly wasn't a knee jerk reaction.

 

[Lone Wolf]

There, I have fixed it, because I have "Privated" my account so that I'm afraid of this whole TLOU 2 leak to get in my timeline, but now you can see my tweet.

Those leaks are popping up everywhere. people love being dicks.

 

[Tetragrammaton_Knight]

Consoles designs aren't reactionary to online rumors, the design/spec goals are set 4 years in advance and specs locked 2 years before launch.
Its as unrealistic as the theory that MS slapped a off the shelf SSD into XSX as a reactionary measure to PS5.

First of all, please don't make up thing on the go and use logic. I never mentioned any "online rumours" and there were none about XSX in 2018, but there are numerous ways for Sony to get that info from AMD like industrial espionage (corporations pay money to get info on what their competitors do, before they release anything). Furthermore I have specifically stated that "this is just my guess" and "nobody knows". That's it.

Secondly why is it unrealistic to make changes 2 years before release of console? Chips can have revisions, changes to logic and clocks. GitHub leak proves that they did not do a whole chip redesign (which won't make any sense so late in development), they simply adjusted the initial design to be more competitive.
Anyhow there are no further valid leaks on this topic, why and what they changed exactly (except obvious clocks). And I won't speculate any further.

 

[Tiago07]

The initiatives is a newly established AAA studio with large budget. It is normal to hire such talented people, otherwise, they won't be able to pull high quality game. Even naughty dogs and Santa Monica are hiring high excellent talents. I heard it is difficult to get a job within such studios due to compitition.

This is exactly why I said "but I think Sony is still fine". They will hire new talents and Sony have great directors like Cory and Neil. Naughty Dog have so much name, I think every guy in this job area, have a dream to work there.

 

[MasterCornholio]

First of all, please don't make up thing on the go and use logic. I never mentioned any "online rumours" and there were none about XSX in 2018, but there are numerous ways for Sony to get that info from AMD like industrial espionage (corporations pay money to get info on what their competitors do, before they release anything). Furthermore I have specifically stated that "this is just my guess" and "nobody knows". That's it.

Secondly why is it unrealistic to make changes 2 years before release of console? Chips can have revisions, changes to logic and clocks. GitHub leak proves that they did not do a whole chip redesign (which won't make any sense so late in development), they simply adjusted the initial design to be more competitive.
Anyhow there are no further valid leaks on this topic, why and what they changed exactly (except obvious clocks). And I won't speculate any further.

So it wasn't a last minute reaction. That's actually good to hear because it could have lead to some serious hardware issues. Nice that they started to redesign the PS5s hardware two years ago instead of just last year.

 

[Tetragrammaton_Knight]

So apparently an Xbox insider had detailed information on Sonys hardware?

That sounds like he probably got Sonys info from AMD.

You do have to find it odd that this person who knew Microsoft's plans in detail would also know about Sonys.

That person definitely had a lot of connections. Not only knowing the hardware specs but studios that MS is in negotiations with. Too bad his account is deleted, we might have got much more useful info from him.

So it wasn't a last minute reaction. That's actually good to hear because it could have lead to some serious hardware issues. Nice that they started to redesign the PS5s hardware two years ago instead of just last year.

If the leak from Jan 2019 says about rework, then we can assume that it started way back in 2018.

 

[LED Guy?]

Those leaks are popping up everywhere. people love being dicks.

Yeah it's really bad...

 

[Shmunter]

Was the ideal, but I forget Benji mention about Microsoft stop manufacturing Xbox One X? Maybe in favor of Series?

I expect Pro to suffer the same fate. Buyer beware.

 

[MasterCornholio]

That person definitely had a lot of connections. Not only knowing the hardware specs but studios that MS is in negotiations with. Too bad his account is deleted, we might have got much more useful info from him.


If the leak from Jan 2019 says about rework, when we can assume that it started way back in 2018.

Apparently he didn't have alot of connections on the Sony side of things. It would have been cool of we had more information from that side.

 

[Tiago07]

HeisenbergFX4

Don't you wanna play this ?
Where your guesses going

 

[Fake]

I expect Pro to suffer the same fate. Buyer beware.

I speculated long time ago in this thread the possibility of base PS4 being replaced by a PRO slim, while PS5 became the Sony premium console. If Sony use the 7nm for make PRO with a size similar to base PS4 slim, who knows.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

HeisenbergFX4

Don't you wanna play this ?
Where your guesses going

I pick 6 of those things to happen.

Is that how I play?

 

[MasterCornholio]

I pick 6 of those things to happen.

Is that how I play?

Well if you want to win it has to be a straight line and you can only get 5 on a row.

;P

 

[3liteDragon]

Dictator.

 

[Vroadstar]

Dictator.

Indeed, shattering dreams and hopes, coming from Dictator a member of X Discord group lol

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

The amount wasn't defined and only described as a large pool of RAM that will be used to carry out all of the IO tasks such as decompression to alleviate pressure on the main 16GB.

Of course it wasn't defined; the point remains it's still not going to be very large if it's true SRAM. If they are using PS-RAM (Pseudo-Static RAM), though, they could go for 128 MB or so and keep it affordable, as PS-RAM is much cheaper than SRAM.

You can look at the prices for decent-quality SRAM at any wholesaler for their given capacities; even when you take out the wholesaler cut and MSRP mark up, it's very costly for even 32 MB of the better-tier SRAM.

Just made this tweet and folks, listen to the video, it seems like John Linneman from Digital Foundry is saying TFLOPS on paper aren't that important and that it may not be as suggested on paper, this podcast just ended hours ago...... I know this thread and the tweet that I made are gonna get a whole lot of COW SHIT STORM!!

But it is the truth.

So he's basically saying what some of us were saying in this thread months ago? That TFs aren't the end-all, be-all regarding the consoles and that there's more to the systems than just their TFs? How is this controversial, because John said it?

NX Gamer basically said about the same in his GPU video; throughput utilization (they provide this as a rough guess) would be about 67.5% of peak theoretical performance on both systems, aka usual TF use-cases of about 7.5 TF PS5, 9.5 TF XSX. But he didn't give that as a serious figure, just a rough idea.

We know both systems will have features that push utilization of their GPUs in ways the paper TF specs don't convey. Cache scrubbers, Geometry Engine customizations etc. in the PS5, increased push of executeIndirect and ML texture upscaling DLSS-type stuff in XSX. These are common-sense conclusions.

Don't know what type of hype or drama you tried making out of this but I'd say that was a fail


So

 

[bitbydeath]

Of course it wasn't defined; the point remains it's still not going to be very large if it's true SRAM. If they are using PS-RAM (Pseudo-Static RAM), though, they could go for 128 MB or so and keep it affordable, as PS-RAM is much cheaper than SRAM.

You can look at the prices for decent-quality SRAM at any wholesaler for their given capacities; even when you take out the wholesaler cut and MSRP mark up, it's very costly for even 32 MB of the better-tier SRAM.

Any RAM is more RAM.

 

[B_Boss]

....dominate the whole generation for the next 5-6 years.

Yikes....due to, primarily, the graphics card being some 'flops stronger ? That seems like reaching to me. The talent of these studios and/or their devs. must absolutely be considered alongside the platforms (and every intricacy of their relative engineering) that grant or limit their creative potential. I understand this is your theory so no worries here. I respond not to what I believe you think you know but rather on your theory which can change depending what is factually revealed.

This excerpt I've responded to from your post reminds me of what OsirisBlack posted after the PS5 GDC reveal where he, essentially, said that the PS5 will spend nextgen catching up (to the Series X) and was in a shit position....all because of the "mighty 'flops". There was so much leaning on that by in those (especially) pre-GDC days. I find it fascinating.

It seems to me that he probably did not realize how significantly efficient the PS5's hardware actually was (not to imply it will create 8k visuals ) and I can confidently say this in comparing the console to the PS4 Pro. Perhaps this was due to his sources, but the same reason cannot be given for his "catch up" comment. What was the source for that, the 'flops lol? Either way, for some reason your post there reminded me of his. Not to chop him up or anything as I prefer to analyze/criticize/attack reasons and arguments, not the person behind them.

 

[SonGoku]

PS5 initial chip had Jaguar CPU cores

lol come on man, where did you read this?

First of all, please don't make up thing on the go and use logic. I never mentioned any "online rumours" and there were none about XSX in 2018, but there are numerous ways for Sony to get that info from AMD like industrial espionage (corporations pay money to get info on what their competitors do, before they release anything). Furthermore I have specifically stated that "this is just my guess" and "nobody knows". That's it.

If they have secret agents infiltrated within MS/AMD then the theory of MS catching them by surprise makes even less sense

Secondly why is it unrealistic to make changes 2 years before release of console? Chips can have revisions, changes to logic and clocks.

Minor changes yes but nothing major, consoles chips require throurough testing to ensure everything works, no bugs/exploits, yields. They don't have the luxury of recalling consoles chips once out
You can check for yourself how development goes in this interview

Meet the guy who engineered the PlayStation 4

Mark Cerny has faced plenty of challenges in his illustrious lifelong career as a game developer, but building the PlayStation 4 from the ground up might have been his biggest.

www.digitaltrends.com

. GitHub leak proves that they did not do a whole chip redesign (which won't make any sense so late in development), they simply adjusted the initial design to be more competitive.

Github was a RDNA1 so...

 

[Deto]

The initiatives is a newly established AAA studio with large budget. It is normal to hire such talented people, otherwise, they won't be able to pull high quality game. Even naughty dogs and Santa Monica are hiring high excellent talents. I heard it is difficult to get a job within such studios due to compitition.

AAA?
With 40 employees?
Declaring it will be small and agile?

the AAA initiative is the new dream of xbox fanboys.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Github was a RDNA1 so...

That was an Ariel iGPU testing profile mode, because Ariel was an RDNA1 chip. Seems more than sensible because, all things considered, that leak also had Arden data and we're pretty much certain Arden is the XSX chip. Aside from the change in clocks the PS5 chip fits Oberon profile more or less exactly.

 

[Deto]

Yep probably you're right.

My crazy came because of this:

"She is also one of many former PlayStation talents that The Initiative have scooped up, and joins former SIE executives, multiple God of War developers, and more at the studio. Former employees of Rockstar, Insomniac Games, and many more have also been tapped up by the studio over the last year or so."

Look at the great studios these profissionals worked !

All employees who spend an average of one year in each company?

There's nothing different than normal. They are all people who are hired by project, after the project ends they leave the company.

 

[bitbydeath]

That was an Ariel iGPU testing profile mode, because Ariel was an RDNA1 chip. Seems more than sensible because, all things considered, that leak also had Arden data and we're pretty much certain Arden is the XSX chip. Aside from the change in clocks the PS5 chip fits Oberon profile more or less exactly.

Oberon was also RDNA1.

 

[SonGoku]

That was an Ariel iGPU testing profile mode, because Ariel was an RDNA1 chip. Seems more than sensible because, all things considered, that leak also had Arden data and we're pretty much certain Arden is the XSX chip. Aside from the change in clocks the PS5 chip fits Oberon profile more or less exactly.

Could be im 50/50 on it being a place holder or fake
Point is github isn't proof of Sony ramping up the clocks to the sky as a reactionary measure to MS to be "more competitive"

Aside from the change in clocks the PS5 chip fits Oberon profile more or less exactly.

and architecture

 

[Tiago07]

I pick 6 of those things to happen.

Is that how I play?

if you want to play with us with a thriller game, I think you are playing right

 

[LED Guy?]

Of course it wasn't defined; the point remains it's still not going to be very large if it's true SRAM. If they are using PS-RAM (Pseudo-Static RAM), though, they could go for 128 MB or so and keep it affordable, as PS-RAM is much cheaper than SRAM.

You can look at the prices for decent-quality SRAM at any wholesaler for their given capacities; even when you take out the wholesaler cut and MSRP mark up, it's very costly for even 32 MB of the better-tier SRAM.



So he's basically saying what some of us were saying in this thread months ago? That TFs aren't the end-all, be-all regarding the consoles and that there's more to the systems than just their TFs? How is this controversial, because John said it?

NX Gamer basically said about the same in his GPU video; throughput utilization (they provide this as a rough guess) would be about 67.5% of peak theoretical performance on both systems, aka usual TF use-cases of about 7.5 TF PS5, 9.5 TF XSX. But he didn't give that as a serious figure, just a rough idea.

We know both systems will have features that push utilization of their GPUs in ways the paper TF specs don't convey. Cache scrubbers, Geometry Engine customizations etc. in the PS5, increased push of executeIndirect and ML texture upscaling DLSS-type stuff in XSX. These are common-sense conclusions.

Don't know what type of hype or drama you tried making out of this but I'd say that was a fail


So

Well, it was a good tweet LOL!! But I liked what John was saying, in the end, I think XSX will still be more powerful....by a bit.

 

[Tetragrammaton_Knight]

Github was a RDNA1 so...

... so now you know Sony's big secret

 

[yurinka]

I expect Pro to suffer the same fate. Buyer beware.

It doesn't make sense. PS4 still sells well and Sony always sold their consoles a couple of years after the next one is released.

At launch PS5 will be selling at a loss, so they will want to continue selling PS4s as cheaper SKU at a profit to partially compensate it.

Same goes in MS side, they said Series X won't have next gen exclusivesf for the first two years, all MS games will be crossgen. Which means that is hard to believe they will discontinue XBO or X during these two years, specially considering Series X still won't have a big userbase.

My prediction.

XSS: 300$ (Based off what HeisenbergFX4 said)
PS5: 400$ - 450$ (Based off Bloomberg)
XSX: 500$ (Based off what Zhug said)

Will even predict that the Dual Sense will be more expensive than the Series X controller.

My prediction:
-Lockhart won't exist because MS said XBO will be the cheap SKU of their games for the first 2 years of Series X
-PS5: $499+ (Zen 2, RDNA2, 16GB DDR6, Dual Sense extra gimmicks and state of the art SSD aren't cheap. You guys who say it will be sold for under that need to stop smoking whatever you smoke.
-XSX: $499+

Both PS5 and XSX being sold at a loss.

 

[3liteDragon]

Sounds like a Perfect Dark reboot to me.

 

[SonGoku]

... so now you know Sony's big secret

uh?

 

[INC]

Cant wait to play all these xbox exclusives.........on pc

 

[Fake]

uh?

 

[Tetragrammaton_Knight]

uh?

Mark Cerny in his GDC presentation talked about some native backwards compatibility with PS4/PS4 Pro that AMD has managed to build for their PS5 chip. So ask yourself how PS5 chip can have native/hardware backwards compatibility with PS4's GCN based chip if it's RDNA2, which shading units do not execute GCN instructions?
This is the question that bothered me the most as developer and engineer since his GDC keynote.