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[geordiemp]

Since when is loading textures an exclusive feature of XSX?! The only hw bit there are texture filters.

What PS5 doesn't have are these special words that are magical in nature.

That correct, the only special bit is the filter that blends in a texture that is late for display.

I would be surprised if a blended pop in is the secret sauce, it must be a plan B.

Lets face it, if ps5 is loading in say next 3 seconds gameplay of textures as a prefetch, what exactly is XSX doing ?

You cant just load in 3 seconds of small res stuff and blend the big textures in later AFTER you look at them...??.

 

[pawel86ck]

No, I'm suggesting they are applying this 2.5x multiplier to the raw SSD speed, so 2.4 x 2.5 equals 6, exactly the theoretical max they already disclosed in their specs.

Ronald wrote SFS 2.5x gains are average, not max or theorethical. If you think MS is using SFS gains in their I/O specification, they why they didnt wrote 6 GB/s, but 4.8 GB/s?

 

[Brudda26]

Are you suggesting 4.8-6GB/s decompression speed given by MS already takes into account SFS gains (2.5x)? If that's the case then XSX SSD raw speed and compression must be really bad. For now I'm more convinced Ronald was talking here about SSD 2.4 GB/s raw speed multiplier.

Omg you just dont understand what's being said do you? The raw speed is 2.4GB/s then with its entire compression pipeline which SFS is part of its achieves 6GB/s you do realise that's actually really hood compression right that's 2.5x increase that's really good compression.

Note the reason they state 4.8GB/s is because they can do 6GB/s it just requires more work and ideal work loads.

 

[geordiemp]

UE5 info

Yes, Nanite draws the gbuffer in 4.5ms on average! Many assumed this amount of detail only can be had at 30fps. Not true! This is well within typical 60hz budgets. That doesn't even count optimizations I've made since.

Also memory isn't insane. This is super WIP and was immature for the demo's release timeframe but it a top focus for us right now. It's already not as bad as you think and it will get significantly better over the next year.

The statue we say is 33M triangles? This shows just what that means. Now I wouldn't recommend or expect this for a common game asset due to the unnecessary size it would take on disk. This is a stress test to show off that the tech scales like we say it does.

Just like with textures you author high and as you get closer to ship Nanite will make it easy to decide to drop a mip or 2 where needed to manage your shipping package size.

Also from edge magazine

The tech goes for beyond backface culling (which detects with polygons are facing away from a view, and doesn't draw them, saving on processing power).

"It's in the form of textures," Karis explains. It's actually like, what are the texels of the texture that are actually landing on pixels in your view? So, it's in the frustum......It's a very accurate algorithm, because when you're asking for it, it's requesting it. But because it's in that sort of paradigm, that means as soon as you request it, we need to get that data in very quickly."

- Brian Karis (Nanite Inventor)

 

[Neo Blaster]

Ronald wrote SFS 2.5x gains are average, not max or theorethical. If you think MS is using SFS gains in their I/O specification, they why they didnt wrote 6 GB/s, but 4.8 GB/s?

Like I said '2.5x' is just a buzz term. Believe me, if VA could reach 12GB/s compressed(4.8 x 2.5), they would be marketing that number instead of a multiplier, that's just marketing deception.

 

[Lethal01]

People can be so sensitive to marketing words. I can imagine the reactions to dumping that packet of instant oatmeal into a bowl.

Or watching a show where every five minutes a commercial advertises a best, most reliable, most powerful, best value family sedan by a different maker.

The "instant" wouldn't bother me in this case if it wasn't directly followed by the more specific 100gb.

Why 100GB?

 

[On Demand]

There is no magical software from MS that can match the PS5's SSD. It's all just buzzwords for things PS5 is already doing on top of PS5 having I/O features SX doesn't.

Whatever SX is doing in software PS5 SSD already does better in hardware. Whatever SX is doing in hardware PS5 SSD already does it even better in hardware.

There's no way to make up for PS5's raw 2 to 3x faster SSD.

 

[Imtjnotu]

Like I said '2.5x' is just a buzz term. Believe me, if VA could reach 12GB/s compressed(4.8 x 2.5), they would be marketing that number instead of a multiplier, that's just marketing deception.

but some are saying its for the ram which gives them 33 gb of ram or some shit. its hard keeping up with that Velocity thread with all the misinformation being spread

 

[SgtCaffran]

Jason Ronald has explained In the article what's the difference between standard mipmaps and their SFS implementation.

If PS5 doesn't have similar feature then we have a new winner in I/O throughput

PS4 already uses partially resident textures and I'm no expert but it seems very similar to SFS.

Omg you just dont understand what's being said do you? The raw speed is 2.4GB/s then with its entire compression pipeline which SFS is part of its achieves 6GB/s you do realise that's actually really hood compression right that's 2.5x increase that's really good compression.

Note the reason they state 4.8GB/s is because they can do 6GB/s it just requires more work and ideal work loads.

I think you are confusing two separate things:
- Compression: files will be stored on the SSD compressed with a ratio of 2:1 on average. This means RAW 2.4GB/s becomes 4.8GB/s of uncompressed data. However, the decompression hardware is capable of decompressing up to 6GB/s if the data compresses very nicely (high ratio than 2:1). Same for PS5: 5.5GB/s raw, 9GB/s typical compressed and 22 GB/s peak.
- RAM/SSD efficiency: by not having to load in parts of textures that will not be used, they claim to reduce the load of texture on average by a factor 2.5. This is compared to the Xbox One X mind you, not the PS4 or PS5. This allows them to use the bandwith and RAM more effectively, not increase the SSD speed.

 

[pawel86ck]

Note the reason they state 4.8GB/s is because they can do 6GB/s it just requires more work and ideal work loads.

6GB/s would be hypothetical, while Ronald is saying SFS gains are 2.5x on average. 2.4 GB/s SSD raw speed without compression would be 6 GB/s on average, not hypothetical.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

The "instant" wouldn't bother me in this case if it wasn't directly followed by the more specific 100gb.

Why 100GB?

"instant" is just PR talk for quickly compared to last gen I think. Jason Ronald specifically states in the IGN interview the SSD is about streaming assets into memory as quickly as possible. No bypassing RAM or data going straight to the GPU (which never made sense to me).

 

[Brudda26]

6GB/s would be hypothetical, while Ronald is saying SFS gains are 2.5x on average. 2.4 GB/s SSD raw speed without compression would be 6 GB/s on average, not hypothetical.

You cannot multiply raw speed into more raw speed. That's its hardware limit on raw speed...

 

[Bo_Hazem]

All this series x vs ps5 nonsense, and all I want to know is whether the ps5 has an optical audio cable or not.

Really good point. Battlefield games with 7-speaker surround sound is a bliss. Really well implemented by Dice.

You guys haven't been around reading, I guess. But PS5 is most likely going to use true 3D audio through 2.0 channel output for headphones, HRTF based, not fake 5.1/7.1. It should be galaxies ahead of any audio solution we are used to, when every droplet of rain has its own sound instead of baked soundtracks in certain locations.

 

[pawel86ck]

Like I said '2.5x' is just a buzz term. Believe me, if VA could reach 12GB/s compressed(4.8 x 2.5), they would be marketing that number instead of a multiplier, that's just marketing deception.

Man people here have said exactly the same thing about XSX 12 TFLOPS. People thought if XSX was indeed 12 TFLOPS Phil would just say it for marketing reasons .

2.4 GB/s with 2:1 compression ratio gives 4.8 GB/s. Thats why MS gives 4.8 GB/s in their specification. They are obviously not taking into account SFS 2.5x gains here, because they would wrote 6GB/s at minimum, not 4.8 GB/s (2.5x SFS gains are average, not max or hypothetical according to Ronald).

 

[jose4gg]

MS is really nice putting multipliers for their fan base, I've read multiple comments over the curse of 2 hours that suggest the new 2.5x means they can go now to 12GB/s...

 

[Tiago07]

That 100gb of instant acess, applies at how many data XSX can have information right now.

PS5 have acess to all SSD data, mainly because of Custom Flash Controller.

 

[Neo Blaster]

They are obviously not taking into account SFS 2.5x gains here, because they would wrote 6GB/s at minimum, not 4.8 GB/s (2.5x SFS gains are average, not max or hypothetical according to Ronald).

You make it look like SFS came out of nowhere and was added right now, like it wasn't part of VA when they disclosed those numbers(2.4, 4.8 and 6). Do you realize how ridiculous such assumption is?

 

[Dodkrake]

Cerny mentioned that. Watch the "Road to PS5"

Btw. read this tweets



We are looking at 15-17 GB/s of compressed data on average on PS5 since 22 GB is peak

No we're not. We're looking at 9GB/s on average IF Cerny was not accounting for Oddle Texture, then a bit more on top of that. But 17GB/s would be basically double the compression on an already heavily compressed file. It's not gonna happen apart from a very small subset of data.

 

[MasterCornholio]

2.4 GB/s * 2.5 = 6 GB/s

Microsoft's Xbox Series X SSD is fast, and can use similar hardware-based compression, but its speeds are 2.4GB/s, or 6GB/s with compression.

PS5 vs Xbox Series X — how different are they, really?

It's clear that the PS5 is nimble and smart while the Xbox Series X has brute force power, but there are many other aspects to consider. Here we outline them all

www.wired.co.uk

I'm slightly confused about something.

Did Microsoft update their specifications?

"I/O Throughput 2.4 GB/s (Raw), 4.8 GB/s (Compressed, with custom hardware decompression block) "

Xbox Series X: A Closer Look at the Technology Powering the Next Generation - Xbox Wire

A few months ago, we revealed Xbox Series X, our fastest, most powerful console ever, designed for a console generation that has you, the player, at its center. When it is released this holiday season, Xbox Series X will set a new bar for performance, speed and compatibility, all while allowing...

news.xbox.com

 

[Tiago07]

PS5 SSD and XSX SSD have great differences beyond the Speed.

PS5 have a better I/O and more priority levels channels.
PS5 SSD is more constant at maximum speed, so we are not going to see Data being bottlenecked any time, but it's possible to XSX SSD speed decrease because of this.

At maximum PS5 SSD will go from 5,5gb/s to 5 gb/s and from 9 gb/s to 8 gb/s.

I don't know much about Series X in this case, but reach the peak constantly will not be possible everytime.

We really need a speed test to know this and a ThirdParty NextGen game in PS5 vs Series X.

 

[Nickolaidas]

You guys haven't been around reading, I guess. But PS5 is most likely going to use true 3D audio through 2.0 channel output for headphones, HRTF based, not fake 5.1/7.1. It should be galaxies ahead of any audio solution we are used to, when every droplet of rain has its own sound instead of baked soundtracks in certain locations.

What the fuck does that have to do with my query?

I did not buy a home theatre system just to listen to headphones.

 

[Thirty7ven]

MS is really nice putting multipliers for their fan base, I've read multiple comments over the curse of 2 hours that suggest the new 2.5x means they can go now to 12GB/s...

Best part is that it's not even new info, they simply figured out better optics on their third try.

 

[B_Boss]

This is the same guy who said Sony's event would show why Ps5 is a next gen console cuz of the ssd and xsx isnt.


But all we got was fast loading. After all the hype of " no more loading screens". So yea, I wouldn't pay attention to his "techincal" posts or anything tbh.

If you believe the PS5's SSD is merely "fast loading" well...with all due respect, I believe that you are mistaken. Again, you've got to consider the entire I/O engineering + SSD as they work together. You also have, at the very least, a few devs who have talked about how it will change how games are designed when referencing the asset streaming among other features.

people (including me) where telling him that sweeney praise to the ps5 was due to some type of deal and he refused to accept it

Logically speaking, that isn't necessarily true. I believe that it can be demonstrated that there is a possible world scenario where Sweeney was merely stating what he felt were his professional opinions based on interaction with the hardware and engineering.

If someone did a nice and genuine technical survey of all the developers positive commentary about the PS5, probably beginning with Ali Salehi, I believe we would see a common thread or line of thought emerge. It would almost be as though every dev corroborated one another independently to an extent.

Again, while it is possibly (and not necessarily) true that Sweeney offered his positive reviews of the hardware primarily due to financial dealings, it is possible he was being honest about his professional experience with said hardware based on technical results.

 

[pawel86ck]

You cannot multiply raw speed into more raw speed. That's its hardware limit on raw speed...

They cant increse SSD speed, but if they need to load 2.5x less data, then the end result would be the same as using 2.5x faster SSD.

You make it look like SFS came out of nowhere and was added right now, like it wasn't part of VA when they disclosed those numbers(2.4, 4.8 and 6). Do you realize how ridiculous such assumption is?

Stay salty man. You can interpret what SFS does whatever you want if you will sleep better .

 

[Tiago07]

2,5x in average, and the I/O maximum is Something little more than 7gb/s, so this is the limit for SFS.

 

[sircaw]

Best part is that it's not even new info, they simply figured out better optics on their third try.

ARE you telling me i have been duped by Buzzwords, AGAIN. ffs.
When will i ever learn.

 

[Dodkrake]

Jesus guys and gals, this is not rocket science:

Xbox Series X

• 2.4GB/s Raw
• 4.8GB/s Compressed on average
• 6GB/s peak, which is the limit of the decompressor

PS5

• 5.5GB/s Raw
• 8 to 9GB/s Compressed on average
• 22GB/s peak. which is the limit of the decompressor

TLDR - Xbox seems to compress their data better based on these numbers, however it's throughput will be on average at around HALF the speed of the PS5. Worst case, it will be almost 4 times slower if we use both peak figures.

Now, it is more likely the Xbox will reach its peak more often than the PS5, however the Raw capabilites of the latter put to shame the compressed figures of the former, so even best case Xbox vs worst case PS5 should still be a net "win" for Sony's console.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

They cannot use SFS for every time they want, they said that, we already had a discussion of this, SF is an improvement of Tiled resources which already
exists in Xbox one. You are dev accordingly to you so this not should be a strong enough argument to reach your conclusion of 12 GB/s.

Lol, stop saying "you're a dev so you should know these things." I'm not a game developer, I'm a machine learning engineer. My knowledge of game development is purely based on what I sometimes read, I wouldn't even say I've got a basic knowledge in this.

 

[geordiemp]

Jesus guys and gals, this is not rocket science:

Xbox Series X

• 2.4GB/s Raw
• 4.8GB/s Compressed on average
• 6GB/s peak, which is the limit of the decompressor

PS5

• 5.5GB/s Raw
• 8 to 9GB/s Compressed on average
• 22GB/s peak. which is the limit of the decompressor

TLDR - Xbox seems to compress their data better based on these numbers, however it's throughput will be on average at around HALF the speed of the PS5. Worst case, it will be almost 4 times slower if we use both peak figures.

Now, it is more likely the Xbox will reach its peak more often than the PS5, however the Raw capabilites of the latter put to shame the compressed figures of the former, so even best case Xbox vs worst case PS5 should still be a net "win" for Sony's console.

That ps5 data was released before oodle texture compressing before the BCn is made, that was paid for by sony for next gen according to RAD blog.

As oodle texture is RDO compress and so is BCpack before making BCn data, look and sound like same thing.

 

[jimbojim]

No we're not. We're looking at 9GB/s on average IF Cerny was not accounting for Oddle Texture, then a bit more on top of that. But 17GB/s would be basically double the compression on an already heavily compressed file. It's not gonna happen apart from a very small subset of data.

I think it can.

Like twit says, it was used without Oodle

"The Sony test sets I know of (that were used to eval the Kraken HW during development) were all assets from (now several year old) PS4 games. So that figure is probably on non-Oodle Texture data."

And this :

Oodle Texture slashes game sizes

Oodle Texture is a new technology we've developed at RAD Game Tools which promises to dramatically shrink game sizes, reducing what you ...

cbloomrants.blogspot.com

127 MB block compressed GPU textures, mix of BC1-7

78 MB with zip/zlib/deflate

70 MB with Oodle Kraken

40 MB with Oodle Texture + Kraken

So, this means compression ratio can be more than 3 to 1. That also means compression can be around 17 GB/s

 

[Tiago07]

I Want to see how the MS DirectStorage applies to PC too.

Tim Sweeny talked how the companies will need to work together to make a PS5 SSD solution to PC, so this is implies only DS is not sufficient or something like this.

 

[Dodkrake]

That ps5 data was released before oodle texture compressing before the BCn is made, that was paid for by sony for next gen according to RAD blog.

As oodle texture is RDO compress and so is BCpack before making BCn data, look and sound like same thing.

Working on a team in an org that works with big enterprise level clients (and I mean 400k+ deals / monthly on multiple orgs), I sincerely doubt Sony was not in the final negotiation stage for Oodle Texture by January this year. But I may be wrong.

I think it can.

Like twit says, it was used without Oodle

"The Sony test sets I know of (that were used to eval the Kraken HW during development) were all assets from (now several year old) PS4 games. So that figure is probably on non-Oodle Texture data."

And this :

Oodle Texture slashes game sizes

Oodle Texture is a new technology we've developed at RAD Game Tools which promises to dramatically shrink game sizes, reducing what you ...

cbloomrants.blogspot.com

So, this means compression ratio can be more than 3 to 1. That also means compression can be around 17 GB/s

I fully accept I may be wrong. Considering 9GB of compressed data, if 3 of those can be compressed with Oodle Texture, we'd be looking at an additional 1GB/s + of throughput, putting the total at 10GB/s. It's honestly quite impressive.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

What the fuck does that have to do with my query?

I did not buy a home theatre system just to listen to headphones.

You can at least use your tv's optical, the HDMI 2.1 of the PS5 should provide enough quality. But it should be less quality due to the limit of the optical audio.

You better use eARC for that.

 

[geordiemp]

Working on a team in an org that works with big enterprise level clients (and I mean 400k+ deals / monthly on multiple orgs), I sincerely doubt Sony was not in the final negotiation stage for Oodle Texture by January this year. But I may be wrong.



I fully accept I may be wrong. Considering 9GB of compressed data, if 3 of those can be compressed with Oodle Texture, we'd be looking at an additional 1GB/s + of throughput, putting the total at 10GB/s. It's honestly quite impressive.

Oodle Texture Compression

RAD Game Tools' web page. RAD makes Bink Video, the Telemetry Performance Visualization System, and Oodle Data Compression - all popular video game middleware.

www.radgametools.com

Oodle RDO texture with lamda of 40 is half the BC7 size in examples given in link.

Half texture size is not 9 to 10, more like 14-15 accounting for % that are textures.

The 8-9 was given by Cerny and he said Kraken only compression.

 

[yewles1]

I'm slightly confused about something.

Did Microsoft update their specifications?

"I/O Throughput 2.4 GB/s (Raw), 4.8 GB/s (Compressed, with custom hardware decompression block) "

Xbox Series X: A Closer Look at the Technology Powering the Next Generation - Xbox Wire

A few months ago, we revealed Xbox Series X, our fastest, most powerful console ever, designed for a console generation that has you, the player, at its center. When it is released this holiday season, Xbox Series X will set a new bar for performance, speed and compatibility, all while allowing...

news.xbox.com

They used to call it "I/O CPU overhead equivalent to 13 Zen 2 cores." lol

Microsoft: Xbox Series X Performance Is 25+ TFLOPs when Ray Tracing; I/O Rate Equal to 13 Zen 2 Cores

Microsoft's Andrew Goossen said Xbox Series X performance is 25+ TFLOPs when raytracing. The IO rate is equal to a PC with 13 Zen 2 cores.

wccftech.com

 

[IntentionalPun]

PS5's 3d audio is headphones only at launch; I don't really understand that myself.

 

[Neo Blaster]

Stay salty man. You can interpret what SFS does whatever you want if you will sleep better .

Feeling is mutual.

 

[Dodkrake]

Oodle Texture Compression

RAD Game Tools' web page. RAD makes Bink Video, the Telemetry Performance Visualization System, and Oodle Data Compression - all popular video game middleware.

www.radgametools.com

Oodle RDO texture with lamda of 40 is half the BC7 size in examples given in link.

Half texture size is not 9 to 10, more like 14-15 accounting for % that are textures.

The 8-9 was given by Cerny and he said Kraken only compression.

I don't think I made myself clear

I fully accept I may be wrong. Considering 9GB of compressed data, if 3 of those can be compressed with Oodle Texture, we'd be looking at an additional 1GB/s + of throughput, putting the total at 10GB/s. It's honestly quite impressive.

My understanding is that not all data can be compressed with Oodle Texture, therefore I did not count all data to be conservative. I got my figures from

Oodle Texture slashes game sizes

Oodle Texture is a new technology we've developed at RAD Game Tools which promises to dramatically shrink game sizes, reducing what you ...

cbloomrants.blogspot.com

So, this means compression ratio can be more than 3 to 1. That also means compression can be around 17 GB/s

 

[IntentionalPun]

They used to call it "I/O CPU overhead equivalent to 13 Zen 2 cores." lol

Microsoft: Xbox Series X Performance Is 25+ TFLOPs when Ray Tracing; I/O Rate Equal to 13 Zen 2 Cores

Microsoft's Andrew Goossen said Xbox Series X performance is 25+ TFLOPs when raytracing. The IO rate is equal to a PC with 13 Zen 2 cores.

wccftech.com

That's not what they said. The 13 zen 2 cores quote is adding together 7 for the game, 1 for background OS, 3 for the decompression, and 2 for the overall i/o savings.

People need to stop playing a game of telephone and linking to these dogshit tech sites and just link to the original interview sources. Frustrating lol

 

[saintjules]

PS5's 3d audio is headphones only at launch; I don't really understand that myself.

I guess they won't get the other audio platforms to take full advantage right away. Had that feeling.

I have a HT setup, but guess I'll get the headphones just because. I wonder if all launch games will fully utilize the 3D audio.

 

[IntentionalPun]

I guess they won't get the other audio platforms to take full advantage right away. Had that feeling.

I have a HT setup, but guess I'll get the headphones just because. I wonder if all launch games will fully utilize the 3D audio.

I guess it's down to the predictable distance to the player's ear.

They'll need some sort of software for calibrating for other types of speakers... but.. that's just such a weird thing to not think you'd have ready by launch to me.

 

[geordiemp]

I don't think I made myself clear



My understanding is that not all data can be compressed with Oodle Texture, therefore I did not count all data to be conservative. I got my figures from

So way I see it, much similar now

Ps5 is RDO compress Bcn + Kraken
XSX is RDO compress Bcn + zlib

 

[Bladed Thesis]

I guess they won't get the other... platforms to take full advantage...

 

[pawel86ck]

I'm slightly confused about something.

Did Microsoft update their specifications?

"I/O Throughput 2.4 GB/s (Raw), 4.8 GB/s (Compressed, with custom hardware decompression block) "

Xbox Series X: A Closer Look at the Technology Powering the Next Generation - Xbox Wire

A few months ago, we revealed Xbox Series X, our fastest, most powerful console ever, designed for a console generation that has you, the player, at its center. When it is released this holiday season, Xbox Series X will set a new bar for performance, speed and compatibility, all while allowing...

news.xbox.com

4.8 GB/s compressed with 2:1 ratio. There's no magic here.

 

[Larvana]

Playstation 5 = The flash
Xbox series X = Superman
But the fanboys on both sides are hilarious to watch, so keep it up.

 

[Entroyp]

They used to call it "I/O CPU overhead equivalent to 13 Zen 2 cores." lol

Microsoft: Xbox Series X Performance Is 25+ TFLOPs when Ray Tracing; I/O Rate Equal to 13 Zen 2 Cores

Microsoft's Andrew Goossen said Xbox Series X performance is 25+ TFLOPs when raytracing. The IO rate is equal to a PC with 13 Zen 2 cores.

wccftech.com

I have two cars that can go up to 180 MPH. According to MS this means each car can go 360 MPH on their own.

Sweet!

 

[Bo_Hazem]

There wasnt a furry fish avatar available. Make it happen and I might consider :3

And how can I possibly hate dinner

Here's your furry fish:

 

[Killer Sakoman]

Jason Ronald has specifially mentioned SFS multiply raw hardware capabilities. Are you suggesting MS have already taken into account SFS gains into 2.4 GB/s SSD speed? If that's the case their true SSD raw speed would be 960 MB/s.

That's the exact speed we saw in thier loading demo

 

[sircaw]

Here's your furry fish:

NO NO NO.

hope your 40 virgins awaiting you in heaven are fat, old and like to go shopping alot with your credit cards.
That will teach you.

 

[Murder187]

Bottom line xsx will have better graphics ps5 will have better loading both systems will be awesome