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[kyliethicc]

I hope these are the prices. $399 for PS5 DE pleeeease

 

[FeiRR]

The CPU is 0.1 GHz difference, and DX12 is more abstract so I would not bet any horses on DX12 being faster at all.

The real question is why are ps5 and XSX have same CPU GHz but XSX is at frequencies below RDNA1 PC parts. RDNA2 is 50 % perf / watt and AMD have supposedly addressed the limitations of RDNA1, so I would expect all RDNA2 parts to be at 2.1 GHz or there abouts or close to Ps5 if it had ps5 cooling and accounting for die size...

The mystery goes both ways....and PC RDNA2 parts will make understanding better when they surface.

I think it's because their priority was to reach a multiple number of CUs/bandwidth for their server purposes. Once they got there, downclocking happened to maintain their power budget on console. XSX seems to be designed primarily as a server blade module and then as a standalone console. I joked today about getting 400% profit from the server model over the console model but, in fact, it's not a joke but their very probable business strategy which they, of course, cannot reveal to their hardcore fanbase because it would make them realise that they're not important at all for the corporation.

 

[aclar00]

I ask you this question: Do you think that Cerny would still say that TF and CU counts don't tell the whole story if the XSX had less TFs and CUs than the PS5?

He wouldn't. There's no way in hell that Cerny would downplay the importance of CUs and TFs if they were one more bullet point that the PS5 could one-up the XSX with. So I think it's safe to say that on the CU/TF subject, he was damage controlling.

Don't get me wrong, I think the PS5 will blow the XSX out of the water, but him handwaving TFs and CUs as a true measure of power was damage control.

And I don't care if he's an engineer and not a PR person. He was basically 'selling / pitching' the PS5 to developers with that speech and it makes sense to speak highly of and praise the things that the PS5 surpasses the XSX (SSD and sound), while downplaying the things the PS5 was worse than the XSX (TF and CU count).

If you don't think there's a pattern here, I don't know what to tell you.

Cerny believes in his product, and I do so as well, but he needs to present the PS5 to people who are not persuaded as well as us. It is THOSE people, people who think that CU and TF count is everything that Cerny needs to convince them that 'hey, you know what? CU and TF count ISN'T everything' after all.

I dont think he would mentioned it due to there being no perceived perception by the targey audience in believing the PS5 to be weaker. its basically to pander to the layman.

I dont know much about cars, but i think it would be akin to a car mfgr saying horsepower doesn't tell the entire story. The one with the higher hp may tout it to the heavens, but not tell you the car weights 5,000lbs. To many people hp is all they know and correspond with power and speed. MFGR with less HP will now have to kodi their message to get it across that their 3000lb car with 100 less hp is effectively faster.

 

[kyliethicc]

Remember when people expected that X1SAD would cost 199 or less. Even Brad Sams claimed it will be like that. What happened?

Mic drop: X1SAD 249$

Yeah that was weird. Because with Xbox All Access, you can get XBONESADE (lol) for effectively $120. So they clearly don't need to sell it for $250.

Xbox All Access: Xbox Console & Over 100 Games | Xbox

Xbox Series X|S, plus 24 months of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate, from $26.99 a month for 24 months.

www.xbox.com

 

[Mr Moose]

I'm OK with these prices. Fingers crossed they are legit.

 

[geordiemp]

I think it's because their priority was to reach a multiple number of CUs/bandwidth for their server purposes. Once they got there, downclocking happened to maintain their power budget on console. XSX seems to be designed primarily as a server blade module and then as a standalone console. I joked today about getting 400% profit from the server model over the console model but, in fact, it's not a joke but their very probable business strategy which they, of course, cannot reveal to their hardcore fanbase because it would make them realise that they're not important at all for the corporation.

You could be right if its a server blade also why they have 2 PCB boards etc. Streaming is not the future.

 

[FeiRR]

Streaming is not the future.

You know that, I know that, their management doesn't and let's leave them at that. In a few years a gap will appear and someone might fill it, maybe Nintendo, maybe Samsung, who knows. Sometimes when I see Spencer and his merry bunch, I think that even Ouya could be better competition for Sony than them.

 

[Three Jackdaws]

 

[Games Dean]

Sorry, I don't have it, someone posted a print on this very thread.

You rang?

 

[TrippleA345]

He was too generous to give it 8-channel instead of cheap 4-channel, DRAM-less:

Now recalculate that, and see how even more staggering it is!

When Innocenceii said at 10:55: "Final two Stages of SSD Loading, Checking In and Loading Managment."
This is complete False, he is mixing allot of thing in his Video.
OR 10:35 "Eliminating the Bootlenecks before the Stage with the Number of Channels becoming relevant" with the Picture.
This is so Painful false.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

When Innocenceii said at 10:55: "Final two Stages of SSD Loading, Checking In and Loading Managment."
This is complete False, he is mixing allot of thing in his Video.
OR 10:35 "Eliminating the Bootlenecks before the Stage with the Number of Channels becoming relevant" with the Picture.
This is so Painful false.

Could be, but only pointing that it's a 4-channel SSD, DRAM-less. That's enough bottleneck to deal with, as it showed only 0.4-0.6GB/s in action with the loading screen of SoD2.

 

[Mr Moose]

He was too generous to give it 8-channel instead of cheap 4-channel, DRAM-less:

Now recalculate that, and see how even more staggering it is!

Hmm...

The Xbox Series X may use a DRAM-less PCIe 4.0 M.2 SSD with up to a 2TB capacity that delivers up to 3.75GB/sec read and write speeds, all built with Phison's newer PS5019-E19T flash memory controller.

Is that why they are using PCIe 4.0 x2? (4GB/s), it's the max for the SSD and probably a little cheaper than x4?

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

He was too generous to give it 8-channel instead of cheap 4-channel, DRAM-less:

Now recalculate that, and see how even more staggering it is!

I'm still a little confused around PCIe lanes and channels. The below slide shows XSX having PCIe Gen4 x8

Logically (to me!) this would mean x4 to the internal SSD and x4 to the external SSD slot, right?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Hmm...

Is that why they are using PCIe 4.0 x2? (4GB/s), it's the max for the SSD and probably a little cheaper than 4x?

Who wrote that? So you think MS will let a 3.7GB/s theoretical number pass by and stick by 2.4GB/s? Both are wishful thinking in practice.

 

[zaitsu]

Could be, but only pointing that it's a 4-channel SSD, DRAM-less. That's enough bottleneck to deal with, as it showed only 0.4-0.6GB/s in action with the loading screen of SoD2.

Even much less with The Cave

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I'm still a little confused around PCIe lanes and channels. The below slide shows XSX having PCIe Gen4 x8

Logically (to me!) this would mean x4 to the internal SSD and x4 to the external SSD slot, right?

Could be 2x 512GB in this case, each being 1.2GB/s peak.

 

[Metroiddarks]

Could be, but only pointing that it's a 4-channel SSD, DRAM-less. That's enough bottleneck to deal with, as it showed only 0.4-0.6GB/s in action with the loading screen of SoD2.

In my opinion even when I understand his point that video is full conjectures is not worth it.

Btw I expect they show a next gen version also

 

[Mr Moose]

Who wrote that? So you think MS will let a 3.7GB/s theoretical number pass by and stick by 2.4GB/s? Both are wishful thinking in practice.

Xbox Series X SSD: DRAM-less PCIe 4.0 NVMe with up to 3.7GB/sec speeds

Microsoft's new next-gen Xbox Series X may use a DRAM-less SSD with up to 3.75GB/sec read/write speeds.

www.tweaktown.com

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1472...18-pcie-40-ssd-controller-up-to-7-gbs-nvme-14
Edit: Wait, aren't they using Samsung SSDs?

​

Sequential Read	1.6 GB/s	2.5 GB/s	3.75 GB/s	3.4 GB/s	5.0 GB/s	7.0 GB/s
Sequential Write	1.3 GB/s	2.1 GB/s	3.75 GB/s	3.2 GB/s	4.4 GB/s	7.0 GB/s

 

[Nickolaidas]

You rang?

Poor Matt, wasting his time on nincompoops.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Xbox Series X SSD: DRAM-less PCIe 4.0 NVMe with up to 3.7GB/sec speeds

Microsoft's new next-gen Xbox Series X may use a DRAM-less SSD with up to 3.75GB/sec read/write speeds.

www.tweaktown.com

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1472...18-pcie-40-ssd-controller-up-to-7-gbs-nvme-14

​

Sequential Read	1.6 GB/s	2.5 GB/s	3.75 GB/s	3.4 GB/s	5.0 GB/s	7.0 GB/s
Sequential Write	1.3 GB/s	2.1 GB/s	3.75 GB/s	3.2 GB/s	4.4 GB/s	7.0 GB/s

Yup, those are the PC versions, XSX isn't having that. MS wouldn't be talking about 2.4GB/s if that's the case.

 

[Thedtrain]

Ok, lets give a sily example if it maybe sinks in a little.

CPU runs at 3.5 GHz and gPU is at 0.1 GHz, does lots of calculations and works out what to draw accessing memory,. It then tells GPU what to draw. It winds down to 0.1 Ghz and has a nap, orders a pizza and watches TV.

GPU, which has been out to the nightclub, wakes up and runs at 2,.23 Ghz and draws the new information like a madman. Frame finshes

2.23 and 3.5 Ghz, but but its not sustained. Thats how shit works. Now look at a frame in real life. Blue is CPU taks, brown is GPU tasks. What is sustained exactly ?

Wow this was super simplified. Best explanation I've seen. Thanks

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Could be 2x 512GB in this case, each being 1.2GB/s peak.

Like I say I'm confused about the whole lanes/channels/ number of chips. If there are 4 lanes/channels then I thought it would mean 4 chips so in the case XSX internal SSD that would be 4 256GiB NAND chips to make up the 1TB.

 

[kyliethicc]

You know that, I know that, their management doesn't and let's leave them at that. In a few years a gap will appear and someone might fill it, maybe Nintendo, maybe Samsung, who knows. Sometimes when I see Spencer and his merry bunch, I think that even Ouya could be better competition for Sony than them.

Even Phil knows cloud gaming won't replace consoles.

"I think I'm going to have a game console plugged into my television for the next decade plus. The best way for me to play on my TV is to have the local device, download, and play."

Xbox Boss Phil Spencer Expects to Be Gaming on a Console for the “Next Decade Plus”

Spencer also says he'd prefer if his current competitors, Sony and Nintendo, continued to be industry leaders for the next 20 to 30 years.

wccftech.com

"One major topic centred around whether he thinks the industry will move from console wars to cloud wars in the future. "I hope not," was his immediate reply. "I think I'm going to have a game console plugged into my television for the next decade plus," he added. "I think the best way for me to play on my television is going to be having a device that downloads the games I want to play, but sometimes I'm not going to be in front of my television, sometimes I'm not in front of a device that has a native capability to play. That's our bet on cloud.""

Phil Spencer Talks About His Vision for Consoles Beyond Xbox Series X - IGN

Xbox boss Phil Spencer recently talked about what he thinks will be the future for monetisation in games and whether streaming services will take over consoles.

www.ign.com

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

In my opinion even when I understand his point that video is full conjectures is not worth it.

Btw I expect they show a next gen version also

Hope that game uses the same engine as Modern Warfare and if we see a next gen version it could look so good.

 

[Mr Moose]

Yup, those are the PC versions, XSX isn't having that. MS wouldn't be talking about 2.4GB/s if that's the case.

I'm wondering if they are even using that SSD, I thought they were using Samsung drives

 

[bhunachicken]

You are from the UK, right?

Yep!

 

[SSfox]

Anyone else notice that in the June PS5 event they snuck the boy Mark in at the end?

I was mostly surprise that Phil Spencer wasn't there, considering he talks about PS5 often.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Like I say I'm confused about the whole lanes/channels/ number of chips. If there are 4 lanes/channels then I thought it would mean 4 chips so in the case XSX internal SSD that would be 4 256GiB NAND chips to make up the 1TB.

It's not that, it's more chips sharing the same channel. In PS5 it's 1:1, 1 channel per chip. For 8-channel, it's mostly 1:2, 1 channel for 2 chips to share. 4-Channel is like 1:4, that's why they are low-end, cheap.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

I think it's because their priority was to reach a multiple number of CUs/bandwidth for their server purposes. Once they got there, downclocking happened to maintain their power budget on console. XSX seems to be designed primarily as a server blade module and then as a standalone console. I joked today about getting 400% profit from the server model over the console model but, in fact, it's not a joke but their very probable business strategy which they, of course, cannot reveal to their hardcore fanbase because it would make them realise that they're not important at all for the corporation.

Yes Moore'sLaw said the same, according to his sources XsX having 52 CUs and being designed the way it is partly as they are using the same chips in their cloud servers.

 

[SportsFan581]

Hmm...

Is that why they are using PCIe 4.0 x2? (4GB/s), it's the max for the SSD and probably a little cheaper than x4?

We don't know yet exactly what the SSD is and how it works. Do both the internal and external drives have a controller? Does the external drive share the controller of the internal drive? Is the controller on board operating both, etc. So many options. It will be interesting once these systems are in the wild and can be examined closely.

 

[TrippleA345]

It's not that, it's more chips sharing the same lane. In PS5 it's 1:1, 1 channel per chip. For 8-channel, it's mostly 1:2, 1 channel for 2 chips to share. 4-Channel is like 1:4, that's why they are low-end, cheap.

But officially it is not known how many channels the XBOX has, right? Because I haven't found anything official, just "suppositions" "claims". You know anything?

We don't know yet exactly what the SSD is and how it works. Do both the internal and external drives have a controller? Does the external drive share the controller of the internal drive? Is the controller on board operating both, etc. So many options. It will be interesting once these systems are in the wild and can be examined closely.

Ok, thanks

 

[Gamernyc78]

 

[kyliethicc]

I'm wondering if they are even using that SSD, I thought they were using Samsung drives

Microsoft SSD seems to be made by Seagate. No idea who Seagate buys their flash from though. Maybe Samsung, maybe Micron. Idk

 

[kyliethicc]

Yes Moore'sLaw said the same, according to his sources XsX having 52 CUs and being designed the way it is partly as they are using the same chips in their cloud servers.

That's not a secret, I think Microsoft told DF this directly back in March. It runs 4 Xbox 1 games simultaneously for their cloud game servers.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

But officially it is not known how many channels the XBOX has, right? Because I haven't found anything official, just "suppositions" "claims". You know anything?

Nothing, but some might get confused by the PCIe lanes, which the are both 4 in PS5, XSX, and any PC and capable of 7GB/s bandwidth. So far, only this leak says 4-channel:

Here are more details about the models:

The most important improvement in the new controllers is support for faster NAND interface speeds of up to 1200 MT/s. This is necessary to get full performance out of 96L and newer 3D NAND. For the high-end E18 this allows the controller to actually deliver twice the throughput of any PCIe 3.0 x4 drive, where the E16 can only use a fraction of the extra bandwidth provided by the PCIe 4.0 upgrade. The faster NAND interface also allows the E19T to hit sequential speeds that are slightly faster than a PCIe 3.0 x4 link can handle, despite the E19T having only four NAND channels instead of the eight channels used by high-end NVMe controllers.

Phison Previews Next-Gen PCIe 4.0 SSD Controllers: Up to 7 GB/s, NVMe 1.4

www.anandtech.com

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

It's not that, it's more chips sharing the same lane. In PS5 it's 1:1, 1 channel per chip. For 8-channel, it's mostly 1:2, 1 channel for 2 chips to share. 4-Channel is like 1:4, that's why they are low-end, cheap.

I'll have to think about these numbers for a while....Thanks! In the mean time can I then ask how many chips will/should the XSX SSD have? I thought 2 or 4, or even 1 like the Toshiba BG4.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I'll have to think about these numbers for a while....Thanks! In the mean time can I then ask how many chips will/should the XSX SSD have? I thought 2 or 4, or even 1 like the Toshiba BG4.

Yup, if you read the post above, we got confused by the PCIe 4.0 lanes, and they are 4 for each SSD, whether it's PS5, XSX, PC. That's not the channel count. 4 for the internal, 4 for the external.

Same with PS5:

4x PCIe 4.0 lanes capable of 7GB/s. My guess about the SSD in XSX is 4 chips per channel, 1:4.

 

[JonnyMP3]

Speaking of SSDs and NAND...
Anyone thinks this has helped both companies with the rumoured price leaks being as prices are dropping for storage.

DRAMeXchange - 【Market View】NAND Flash Market Weakens Rapidly in 3Q20 with Widening Decline in Wafer Prices, Says TrendForce

DRAM, NAND Flash, SSD, Module and Memory card, and provides market research on spot and contract prices, daily news, market views and reports, and monthly datasheets of semiconductor industry.集邦科技

www.dramexchange.com

Kinda like when Playstation lucked out on Samsung's GDDR5 RAM chips.

 

[TrippleA345]

Yup, if you read the post above, we got confused by the PCIe 4.0 lanes, and they are 4 for each SSD, whether its PS5, XSX, PC. That's not the channel count. 4 for the internal, 4 for the external.

Same with PS5:

4x PCIe 4.0 lanes capable of 7GB/s. My guess about the SSD in XSX is that it's 4 chips per channel, 1:4.

Yeah, I also think 1 Channel for 4 Chips.

 

[geordiemp]

I'll have to think about these numbers for a while....Thanks! In the mean time can I then ask how many chips will/should the XSX SSD have? I thought 2 or 4, or even 1 like the Toshiba BG4.

I honestly think XSX will just load them in late allot of the time if missed the streaming pool window and blend the higher LOD in using the hardware blending tech they have detailed.

We saw that in halo but apparently that was not XSX or VA due to reasons...

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Speaking of SSDs and NAND...
Anyone thinks this has helped both companies with the rumoured price leaks being as prices are dropping for storage.

DRAMeXchange - 【Market View】NAND Flash Market Weakens Rapidly in 3Q20 with Widening Decline in Wafer Prices, Says TrendForce

DRAM, NAND Flash, SSD, Module and Memory card, and provides market research on spot and contract prices, daily news, market views and reports, and monthly datasheets of semiconductor industry.集邦科技

www.dramexchange.com

Kinda like when Playstation lucked out on Samsung's GDDR5 RAM chips.

Maybe that's why Sony are pumping 10 million PS5's in the first year?

 

[saintjules]

 

[MasterCornholio]

Yeah, I also think 1 Channel for 4 Chips.

So PS5 having one channel per chip allows the controller to access all chips at once? Which is an advantage over the XSXs 1 channel per 4 chips.

 

[kyliethicc]

Hmm...

Is that why they are using PCIe 4.0 x2? (4GB/s), it's the max for the SSD and probably a little cheaper than x4?

I'm still a little confused around PCIe lanes and channels. The below slide shows XSX having PCIe Gen4 x8

Logically (to me!) this would mean x4 to the internal SSD and x4 to the external SSD slot, right?

Who wrote that? So you think MS will let a 3.7GB/s theoretical number pass by and stick by 2.4GB/s? Both are wishful thinking in practice.

Could be 2x 512GB in this case, each being 1.2GB/s peak.

Like I say I'm confused about the whole lanes/channels/ number of chips. If there are 4 lanes/channels then I thought it would mean 4 chips so in the case XSX internal SSD that would be 4 256GiB NAND chips to make up the 1TB.

Internal channels connect the flash to the controller. External lanes of PCIe connect the entire drive to the SOC. Both can affect the raw bandwdith in different ways.

4 lanes of PCIe Gen4 allow for up to 8 GB/s, 2 lanes allows for up to 4 GB/s. The XSX SSD only needs 2 lanes of PCIe Gen 4.

The PS5 SSD has 12 internal channels, and then uses 4 lanes of PCIe 4.0 to connect the controller to the SOC. We think it has 12 flash dies (1 per channel) but thats not offically confimed yet. (But is probably true.) Cerny said 8 channels wasnt enough to hit their goal of 5 GB/s (probably due to cost limits.)

The XSX SSD has 2 lanes of PCIe 4 for the built-in SSD, and then 2 more lanes for the Expansion Card. We dont know how many internal channels the main drive or expnasion card have. Doesnt really matter, most likely is 4. All that matters is its 2.4 GB/s raw.

The slide from the XSX hot chips presentation showing it has 8x lanes of PCIe Gen4 at its I/O hub is confusing. I have no idea what the other 4 would be for, maybe the disc drive? Idk. Becaue in later slides, they make it very clear that each drive (the internal and the expansion card) only use 2 lanes each.

 

[Killer Sakoman]

Fixed frequency system:

CPU at 70%, GPU at 100% and system taps out on power -> net result is down clocking of both CPU and GPU

Variable frequency system such as PS5:

CPU at 70%, GPU at 100% and systems taps out on power -> down clock CPU with 20% with maintained frequency for the GPU

Unless you make the assumption that the PS5 has an undersized cooling and power solution compared to the XSX (why would you assume that?) - the ability to divert power is only upside.

It doesn't need to downclock the CPU in this case because it is at 70% load, it only needs to shift unused power to GPU. The CPU or GPU on PS5 will only downclock if both are at a 100% power utilization to avoid overheat and fan noise. This will happen "if that game comes" as per Cerny. Thus, the GPU and CPU will " stay at or colse to their peak frequency most of the time"

 

[TrippleA345]

So PS5 having one channel per chip allows the controller to access all chips at once? Which is an advantage over the XSXs 1 channel per 4 chips.

Yes, this is correct.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Yes, this is correct.

I'm assuming that this helps with it's speed? Just trying to understand why it's so fast compared to what the Xbox has.

 

[onQ123]

Link?

Maybe he's badly paraphrasing things that are correct.. but what he said is absolutely not correct.

You can't magically not lower performance when lowering clocks.. like who would ever make that claim?

You can get higher average performance than the same design at fixed clocks though. But... the XSS clocks are fixed, higher than the max clocks of the PS5... so when comparing them, the XSS has the clear advantage at least overall theoretical TF.

PS5 has advantage for maximum clock speed per CU on the GPU side though.

PS5 has the advantage in Pixel fill rate & triangle rendering plus faster internal cache.

 

[geordiemp]

Yes, this is correct.

Also faster for smaller random reads having more channels.

It would be interesting to compare the pricing of the 12 smaller NAND chips...

 

[geordiemp]

You rang?

Which thread was that ?