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[FrenchMovieTheme]

now you guys know i love the nfl as much as the next guy, and i'm very knowledgeable about the rules. but what is happening in our madden league is confusing the fuck out of me and i need to know the site is calculating it correctly. if you have time and can take a look, please go here:

http://www.leaguedaddy.com/leagues/?lid=1307

i'm most concerned with the AFC, and the 3 way (possible 4 way) tie between the broncos, bears, chiefs and dolphins. i was confident the site is doing the math right, but now i'm second guessing. the site says NFL rules do tiebreakers in this order:

Display playoff standings?
Turn this option on to have playoff standings displayed on the standings page and the league home page. The following tie-breakers are applied:
Head-to-head record
Best division record (if same division)
Best record among common opponents
Best conference record (if same conference)
These are the current first 4 tiebreakers for the NFL. At some point these tie-breakers will be configurable.

is this even correct? i look at the official article on the NFL.com site, and it explains it differently (but is dated in 2002):

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakers

Three or More Clubs
(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of applicable two-club format.)
1. Apply division tie breaker to eliminate all but the highest ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. The original seeding within a division upon application of the division tie breaker remains the same for all subsequent applications of the procedure that are necessary to identify the two Wild-Card participants.
2. Head-to-head sweep. (Applicable only if one club has defeated each of the others or if one club has lost to each of the others.)
3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
4. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.
5. Strength of victory.
6. Strength of schedule.
7. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.
8. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.
9. Best net points in conference games.
10. Best net points in all games.
11. Best net touchdowns in all games.
12. Coin toss

now take a look at the standings:

AFC Central
Team Owner W L T PCT GB Home Road DIV CONF Strk PF PA Opp Rec
Baltimore Ravens Fifty 12-4-0 0.750 0 5-3-0 7-1-0 4-2-0 10-2-0 W3 22.6 13.9 126-127-0 (0.498)
Denver Broncos Andokuky 10-6-0 0.625 2 6-2-0 4-4-0 4-2-0 8-4-0 W3 20.1 17.5 130-123-0 (0.514)
Minnesota Vikings SloForce 8-7-0 0.533 3.5 4-4-0 4-3-0 3-3-0 6-5-0 W3 17.7 17.3 131-106-0 (0.553)
Pittsburgh Steelers Ramirez 4-12-0 0.250 8 3-5-0 1-7-0 1-5-0 2-10-0 L1 20.2 24.4 146-104-0 (0.584)

AFC East
Team Owner W L T PCT GB Home Road DIV CONF Strk PF PA Opp Rec
Houston Texans matrixadw 11-5-0 0.688 0 4-4-0 7-1-0 6-2-0 9-5-0 W1 24.9 21.1 101-150-0 (0.402)
Miami Dolphins newsguy 9-6-0 0.600 1.5 3-4-0 6-2-0 3-5-0 5-6-0 W1 22.7 20.5 104-130-0 (0.444)
Carolina Panthers matrixadw 8-8-0 0.500 3 4-4-0 4-4-0 6-2-0 6-6-0 W1 18.4 19.1 120-129-0 (0.482)
Cincinnati Bengals JayFro 4-11-0 0.267 6.5 4-3-0 0-8-0 2-6-0 3-8-0 L1 17.0 19.5 110-125-0 (0.468)
New Orleans Saints KingVitaman 3-13-0 0.188 8 2-6-0 1-7-0 3-5-0 3-9-0 L1 13.1 30.3 130-119-0 (0.522)

AFC West
Team Owner W L T PCT GB Home Road DIV CONF Strk PF PA Opp Rec
New York Jets iceDragon7 12-2-0 0.857 0 6-1-0 6-1-0 7-0-0 9-1-0 L1 25.2 15.6 109-112-0 (0.493)
Kansas City Chiefs malleymal 10-6-0 0.625 3 6-2-0 4-4-0 4-4-0 6-6-0 W3 22.4 18.6 133-117-0 (0.532)
Chicago Bears Mrbob2k6 10-6-0 0.625 3 5-3-0 5-3-0 4-4-0 8-4-0 W1 20.4 18.9 127-120-0 (0.514)
Indianapolis Colts Drey1082 8-7-0 0.533 4.5 5-3-0 3-4-0 3-4-0 6-5-0 L1 26.3 21.5 125-113-0 (0.525)
Buffalo Bills DCX 4-12-0 0.250 9 2-6-0 2-6-0 1-7-0 2-12-0 L4 13.5 21.6 147-102-0 (0.590)

my question is this: after looking at this stuff, i was convinced the site did it wrong and that i should go by conference record before common opponents. but, then i looked at the REAL nfl last year, and the NFL didn't use this method with the saints/rams/vikings debacle. can someone explain to me what would be correct?

 

[Archaix]

edit: Ooooh, now I remember what happened.


The Rams had the highest conference record, so they got the first spot. Then afterwards, they went to the two team rules, so the Vikings got in as a result of beating the Saints.

So what you'd have to do is eliminate the Bears first, since they got swept by the Chiefs.

(editing for further ridiculous application of NFL rules)

Then the Broncos would win the tiebreaker between the remaining three, as they have the best conference record.

Assuming there is only one spot to go between the four teams, the Broncos are in. If there is another, then the tiebreaker between the Dolphins and Chiefs would go to the common opponents tiebreaker, since they haven't played eachother and would end up with identical 6-6 conference records. Basically, for your sake, I'm hoping there's only one spot to go between the four.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

then it appears as though the site calculated it incorrectly. now i have to double check the NFC side also! UGH!

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

but bob didn't lose to BOTH players. it doesn't say anything about being swept by 1 player (i.e. yes the bears lost to the chiefs twice, but the bears didn't lose to the chiefs AND broncos which is what it's saying)

 

[Archaix]

Looking over again, I'm noticing that the rules very well may have been changed since the division reallignment. With only three divisions, it's not 3 teams going for two spots, but 4 teams going for 3. Using these current rules, it looks like the only team left out is the Bears(assuming a Dolphins win in the final week), as a result of the "only the best team in the division gets in" rule explained as the first tiebreaker on the list. But I don't know whether this was an active rule before the reallignment.

but bob didn't lose to BOTH players. it doesn't say anything about being swept by 1 player (i.e. yes the bears lost to the chiefs twice, but the bears didn't lose to the chiefs AND broncos which is what it's saying)

Right, but the first rule says that you apply the head-to-head divisional tiebreakers if two teams are in the same division. Since the Bears and Chiefs were both 4-4 in their division(and the Broncos and Dolphins are in different divisions, making them irrelevant to this particular step), it goes to the Chiefs because they swept the Bears.

Basically, you're going about 26 levels deep in the NFL tiebreaker rules to decide who gets in.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

crap, and this is to say nothing about the NFC, which also has four 8-8 teams vying for 2 spots....

 

[Archaix]

crap, and this is to say nothing about the NFC, which also has four 8-8 teams vying for 2 spots....

Well, going by the current rules, the two teams to get in should be the Packers and Eagles, as is the case in the standings. This is, of course, likely a case of dumb luck and not actual application of the rules.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

ok it looks to me like league daddy had the teams right, but the seedings wrong. the way i understand it:

- broncos are #4 because they have the best conference record
- chiefs are #5 because they own a better division/head to head record against the bears
- then it comes down to head to head bears vs dolphins, in which case the bears get in because they beat the dolphins head to head

does this sound right?

 

[Archaix]

ok it looks to me like league daddy had the teams right, but the seedings wrong. the way i understand it:

- broncos are #4 because they have the best conference record
- chiefs are #5 because they own a better division/head to head record against the bears
- then it comes down to head to head bears vs dolphins, in which case the bears get in because they beat the dolphins head to head

does this sound right?

Actually, here's a step-by-step process:

1. Apply division tie breaker to eliminate all but the highest ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. The original seeding within a division upon application of the division tie breaker remains the same for all subsequent applications of the procedure that are necessary to identify the two Wild-Card participants.

This takes us to:

1. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs).

For Bears-Chiefs. Chiefs swept, so it's elimination for the Bears.

Then we go on to step number 2 with Chiefs, Dolphins, and Broncos.

2. Head-to-head sweep. (Applicable only if one club has defeated each of the others or if one club has lost to each of the others.)

Doesn't apply, move on.

3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.

This puts the Broncos in first. Then we go back and start over with the two team tiebreakers.

1. Head-to-head, if applicable.

Not applicable, Chiefs and Dolphins didn't face off.

2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.

Would be the same, so we move on to number 3.

3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.

Chiefs seem to be 4-2 in these games, while the Dolphins are 2-4. So there you go.

Seeding would be 4 Broncos, 5 Chiefs, 6 Dolphins(assuming a dolphins win).

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

For Bears-Chiefs. Chiefs swept, so it's elimination for the Bears.

but wait. the dolphins lost head to head against the bears. and the chiefs lost to the broncos. doesn't this go into account with the head to head amongst each other?

 

[Archaix]

but wait. the dolphins lost head to head against the bears. and the chiefs lost to the broncos. doesn't this go into account with the head to head amongst each other?

No, because the first step is narrowing it down to just one team per division. For all other steps, it's get a winner and then go back to the start for the teams left, but the first step starts out by eliminating teams that are behind in their division to another team in the tiebreaker process.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

hmmm, that sounds to me like the old division setup though (3) and then it makes sense.

it is also odd that the bears have the best conference record amongst the teams, yet still dont get in? damn this is confusing

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

thanks for your help archaix, i really appreciate it.

god help me if this ever happens again to the 49ers in real life where we're screwed out of the playoffs @ 10-6