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Nintendo Needs Valve
- Thread starter imastalker co.
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BudokaiMR2
Member
Tain said:
I really don't see why people are so attached to KB mouse...
I mean, of course the mouse is a great way to play FPS, but I am sorry but a cluster fuck of a keyboard is just silly as far something high reaction like an FPS is concerned. I mean, of course it works, but that is just because we have all gotten used to it, and have learned on it.
If you can seriously explain to me how WASD controls are superior to an analog stick then please do so.
MrSardonic
The nerdiest nerd of all the nerds in nerdland
Guns N' Poops said:
I doubt you are suited to making this kind of judgement at the moment
Borys said:
Fixed.
BudokaiMR2 said:
No matter how you spin it you'll need a lot of buttons on if you're going to counter the WASD-controls. For example I myself use shift, q, e, r, f, space + some other buttons aside from the wasd buttons. How are you going to replicate this for the Revolution. I believe that the revolution controls will be the definite controls regarding fps on consoles but will they be better than kb+mouse? Nope.
MrSardonic
The nerdiest nerd of all the nerds in nerdland
Yoboman said:
huh? why would something so intuitive require "a lot more" hand-eye co-ordination than a mouse? I don't think your claim is very compelling at all.
eeyore the donkey
Banned
The games you mentioned are years old...people aren't going to jump on rev when they can play those games on PC with better graphics and similar controls. Even if Valve were to make a new IP for rev...it would take forever to come out with their track record
BunnyLifeguard
Member
Kroole said:
Of course it will.
It is direct aiming ( a laser pointer, in the best case scenario, vs a mouse?)
You can full-turn way faster as with mouse/keyboard (imagine one "special" move with the controler.
Imagine many many very fast on-screen pop up-menus (direct pointing > move cursor, should be as fast as a mouswheel).
And i bet there will be more than 2 buttons. One trigger on the remote, plus 2 comfortably reachable for the thumb, plus a thumbstick-button on the analog-unit, plus lets say two for the fingers.
Should be enough, altogether.
Revo >>> mouse/keyboard.
Revolution doesn't need poor ports of PC FPS to give it the boost.
Console developers are going to prove that FPS will rock on the Revolution, the likes of Valve will come crawling trying to port their games on the system.
MS better try hard next gen to keep their FPS market, Halo 3 needs to be huge.
Console developers are going to prove that FPS will rock on the Revolution, the likes of Valve will come crawling trying to port their games on the system.
MS better try hard next gen to keep their FPS market, Halo 3 needs to be huge.
BudokaiMR2 said:
WASD buttons aren't the main draw of KB/mouse, its the mouse. its a hell of a lot easier to mouse aim than it is to use an analog stick. Granted its certainly possible to do well aiming with an analog stick, but the ceiling is well below what someone would be capable of with an analog stick. It may just be me but its FAR easier to be precises using a mouse pointer than it is holding an analog stick, especially when you're trying to hold the stick halfway or something. But given that the PC is still the definitive FPS platform I suspect I'm not the only one who feels this way.
littlewig said:
Most FPS devs could give a shit about Rev right now, they'll be lucky to get even one high profile FPS game. No one is going to worry about Nintendo until they prove that FPS fans actually own Rev and there's a market for the genre on the console, cause I'll tell you the FPS market on Cube sure was huge. :lol
The Revmote hasn't changed Nintendo's pitiful market position in consoles just yet fellas, no need to get ahead of yourselves or pine for support that you know you're not gonna get. Valve doesn't give a shit about Nintendo, and Nintendo fans don't give a shit about Valve.
eeyore the donkey
Banned
D3VI0US said:
someone had to say it
The Friendly Monster
Member
D3VI0US said:
Someone has a narrow-minded view of this market. I can't wait to try playing an FPS with the Revolution controller.
And oh wait I also enjoyed Half Life 2.
DefectiveReject
Banned
who's betting now, Metroid Prime 3 WILL be a FPS.
Nintendo wanna show off the Revmote to its full potential.
The best way to do it. Mario for full display of the ease of use of the controller (mario 128 likely disappeared as it was designed around the accessory to extend the GC lifespan, and what has now become the FHC)
And to show all the big dev's how cool FPS' will be on the Revmote Metroid Prime 3 will show them how. Or it will at least have sections of FPS in
Nintendo wanna show off the Revmote to its full potential.
The best way to do it. Mario for full display of the ease of use of the controller (mario 128 likely disappeared as it was designed around the accessory to extend the GC lifespan, and what has now become the FHC)
And to show all the big dev's how cool FPS' will be on the Revmote Metroid Prime 3 will show them how. Or it will at least have sections of FPS in
MrSardonic
The nerdiest nerd of all the nerds in nerdland
Kroole said:
is this a serious question?
littlewig said:
That's true. Although my main peeve about your reasoning is that it would take FPS to a new level of gameplay.
This gameplay you're speaking about. Do you mean that casual gamers will be able to pick it up and play reasonable well with it or do you really think that you'll perform better with it (than with kb+mouse)?
h1nch said:
You do know that the Revmote won't be aiming with an analogue right? Thats why console FPS suck, but thats why we're hoping Rev fixes that.
As for lightgun games, its my wish that an FPS comes out with lightgun style shooting, which is more realistic after all.
I hate using the mouse to aim, turn and look around, it just doesn't feel natural scrolling a cursor around my screen, I also find it slow and clumsy, and thats before I even get to the keyboard.
Only benefit a kb has over Rev as I see it is more buttons for more functions. All that means is you build a rev FPS which is more basic like console FPS tend to be.
PC will always be the home for FPS I suspect, no one is saying consoles will take over. Mods and online infrastructure and cutting edge tech etc will always mean FPS stays on PC. But the FPS genre could always be more accessible to a mainstream market.
One of the guys from EGM or 1up said that in a vs match between a kb and mouse user and the revmote, rev user is likely to kick ass because its much better.
littlewig said:
That I agree with. Comparable but not better. I can see that the remote might be a perfect substitute for the mouse, it's the lack of buttons that I feel will be its main flaw if you compare it to PCs. It would be nice though if Nintendo (or 3rd party) released a controller attachement that would introduce a more keyboardish button interface.
BudokaiMR2
Member
h1nch said:
Yeah...this thread really isn't about analog sticks. I said the mouse is great, but I don't have any idea why people like using a KB. It just pisses me off pressing the wrong button, which is pretty easy to do in the middle of a fast paced CS match.
The only advantage KB has over Rev would be more buttons. But that is overrated. I mean what are the other buttons used for? Flashlight? map? The analog with the two triggers is more than enough I think.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Although Half Life 2 on the Revolution is a very cool idea, there's more to this than just PC ports. The Revolution offers a level of control that the PS3 and Xbox 360 will never be able to replicate period; it's a fact. With that in mind, Nintendo needs to put a lot of effort into securing exclusive support from PC developers who make games that could be perfectly controlled with the controller: Blizzard (RTS), Epic/Valve/id (FPS), Lionhead (god games/sim), etc. I think it's pretty safe to say that the conventional console developers are going to spend a majority of their time working on PS3 and 360 games. Nintendo needs to counter this with PC developers. A game like StarCraft or Spore could work on the 360 obviously, but the Revolution's controller would make these games better (and more PC natural) on Nintendo's console.
Nintendo talks alot about expanding the market, and I feel they could do this with PC support. If they can attract PC gamers, Nintendo could put themselves in a good position. I think this is a far more logical plan than putting all their effort into catering to a group of people who will not be reliable, consistant customers ("non gamers").
If Nintendo was smart, they would be in meetings with these developers right now about Revolution exclusives. Offering Valve/Epic/Lionhead/Blizzard incentives such as no licensing fees could go a long way. Nintendo has more than enough money to secure at least one exclusive game from all the major PC developers. But the question now becomes: is Nintendo willing (or smart enough) to do this? Sadly, I don't think they are.
Nintendo talks alot about expanding the market, and I feel they could do this with PC support. If they can attract PC gamers, Nintendo could put themselves in a good position. I think this is a far more logical plan than putting all their effort into catering to a group of people who will not be reliable, consistant customers ("non gamers").
If Nintendo was smart, they would be in meetings with these developers right now about Revolution exclusives. Offering Valve/Epic/Lionhead/Blizzard incentives such as no licensing fees could go a long way. Nintendo has more than enough money to secure at least one exclusive game from all the major PC developers. But the question now becomes: is Nintendo willing (or smart enough) to do this? Sadly, I don't think they are.
A "true 3d" controller offers no advantage to aiming in any current fps, whether it's 2 dimensional, 3 dimensional or fucking fundimensional. The game itself is irrelevant- the aiming function is 2 dimensional. Crosshairs go up, they go down, they go left to right, and never shall they go anywhere else. Whether your pointing a stick or moving a mouse, you're still dragging a cursor over a finite area of screen real estate. Whether or not one feels more natural, or offers creater accuracy, we'll just have to wait and see, though I've got some serious doubts that a remote control is going to be any more accurate than a mouse.
So what it comes down to is the offhand controller- the nunchuck vs. the keyboard. And if you think an analog stick you move with your thumb and two buttons is going to be superior to 4 directional keys and a dozen customizable buttons, you are living in fucking la-la land.
So what it comes down to is the offhand controller- the nunchuck vs. the keyboard. And if you think an analog stick you move with your thumb and two buttons is going to be superior to 4 directional keys and a dozen customizable buttons, you are living in fucking la-la land.
BudokaiMR2
Member
Draft said:
Are you joking? So you are telling me that a 4 button control scheme offers better control than analog? Are you stuck in Pre-N64 age or something? And seriously, a dozen cusomizable buttons don't mean jack shit in a genre where the main objective is shooting stuff. You can design a good game that doesn't need a special 'flash light' button along with a seperate 'nightvision' button.
No, I am in fact not joking. Yes, I am telling you that 3 fingers on 4 keys is going to offer quicker, more precise movement than one thumb on an analog stick.BudokaiMR2 said:
There are certain FPS hybrids that I could maybe see working well with the Nunchuck. Thief, for example, is all tiny, subtle movement. Having true analog control in Thief is pretty pimping, as you can see in the Xbox version.
There is a reason fighting game nuts always opt for a stick, and I'll tell you why- it's easier to be precise with your whole hand hitting buttons instead of just your thumb. It's the same reason people play tekken with a dual shock precariously perched on their knee and one finger each on square triangle and circle.
BudokaiMR2
Member
Draft said:
I just don't see it at all.
First of all, I am against the whole port CS to Rev idea. But I think it will be able to offer new kinds of FPS that end up just being superior in the long run.
I mean one big arguement is definitely the variable speed that analog would allow. This would be great in an FPS.
I don't think the tekken example really compares. We are talking about movement here, not combo button presses. When considering movement, you don't just take into account quickness, but also precision and fludity.
So you would say that Halo, Black, SOCOM and all other console exclusive FPS games offer greater control than their PC brethren by virtue of the fact that you can walk reaaaaally slow, then kindof slow, then normal, then faster than normal, than really fast, then run?BudokaiMR2 said:
Edit: cause I'm just saying, the strenghts/weaknesses of the wand are unknown at this point. The nunchuck is just an analog stick, the same thing we've been using to play console FPS games for the last 5 years. We know how it works. There are no surprises in store.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
Wouldn't it need a shell to even come close to the amount of buttons needed for proper FPS control?
There are still a bunch of required keys that need to be mapped on to the revolution though.
A Function Key which opens doors, operate objects, picks up ammo, etc
Weapon toggle key
Reload key
Prone/crouch
Switch between view persepctive (like night vision, sniping/aiming, etc)
A key to bring up the map
Jump key
Secondary function key
These and other buttons are pretty much required for a modern day FPS. Revmote doesn't have that many buttons, developers are going to have to find hand gestures that will be able to perform these actions.
If you want to reload, you'll probably have to hold in a, and yank the revmote back like a fishing rod. If you want to operate a object, you'll have to hold in a and jab the pad forward.
The only problem that I see is that with too many gestures in a FPS, the game will no longer be intuitive, so there will still be a seperation between novice and veteran players.
A Function Key which opens doors, operate objects, picks up ammo, etc
Weapon toggle key
Reload key
Prone/crouch
Switch between view persepctive (like night vision, sniping/aiming, etc)
A key to bring up the map
Jump key
Secondary function key
These and other buttons are pretty much required for a modern day FPS. Revmote doesn't have that many buttons, developers are going to have to find hand gestures that will be able to perform these actions.
If you want to reload, you'll probably have to hold in a, and yank the revmote back like a fishing rod. If you want to operate a object, you'll have to hold in a and jab the pad forward.
The only problem that I see is that with too many gestures in a FPS, the game will no longer be intuitive, so there will still be a seperation between novice and veteran players.
tehrik-e-insaaf
Member
>>>NOA use to have great relationships with pc and console western developers and then it went to shit with Gamecube because Nintendo thought they didn't need them anymore because they got back some decent Japanese support.
Woah. There is a reason why this happened - NOA lost like pretty much everyone who managed their developer relationships when Microsoft setup shop across town and started handing out money hats. That doesn't justify wy NOA ended up becoming so irrelevant, but you do need to understand it wasn't a conscious choice.
Moreover the proof is in the pudding, and N64 didn't really have very much support outside of a select few games (the real test case of a strong relationship). Assuming they stayed on-course, they would have really seen an effect in the GC's lifespan. Taking this logic into account, given they started from scratch during the GC lifespan, we should see better support in the Rev lifespan.
Woah. There is a reason why this happened - NOA lost like pretty much everyone who managed their developer relationships when Microsoft setup shop across town and started handing out money hats. That doesn't justify wy NOA ended up becoming so irrelevant, but you do need to understand it wasn't a conscious choice.
Moreover the proof is in the pudding, and N64 didn't really have very much support outside of a select few games (the real test case of a strong relationship). Assuming they stayed on-course, they would have really seen an effect in the GC's lifespan. Taking this logic into account, given they started from scratch during the GC lifespan, we should see better support in the Rev lifespan.
BudokaiMR2
Member
Draft said:
Hmm that is a good point, but I don't think any of those used the analog stick well at all. I mean Halo is so actiony that you would have been a pansy if you didn't run into every room full speed, guns blazing. Actually I haven't even played Black yet. I have pretty much always thought SOCOM was mediocre etc.
Really I would like to see something sort of CS-esque where something like running speed has actual effects. Such as full speed run and shooting takes your accuracy down a lot and it is more of a spray. But walking slow gives you better accuracy, and then you have the middle which is a completely variable. I am not sure if any of those have done something like this.
But really I am not really trying to argue that the Analog is better than the WASD just that they are about equal and each have their strengths and weaknesses. My main problem with KB when it comes to FPS games, is that there are just too many buttons that don't need to be there at all. I would find it hard to believe if someone told me that they play CS regularly and don't find themselves pressing a wrong button periodically.
Again the main point is the precision that the Remote should allow to be implemented.
Buggy Loop
Member
Valve is nowhere near the king of FPS gameplay imo, i would rather have
Irrational games - System shock 2, bioshock
Monolith - No one lives forever, Alien vs predator 2, Tron2.0, FEAR
Ubisoft/crytek - Rainbow 6 series, farcry
EA/digital illusions - Battlefield 2
Epic - UT series
Valve is good at making cinematic experiences but, in both half life 1 and half life 2 i think it ended being repetitive with a shitty ending.
I think Retro studios and ubisoft will show the rest of the crowd how fps will be done on rev. MP3 will control like an FPS.
Irrational games - System shock 2, bioshock
Monolith - No one lives forever, Alien vs predator 2, Tron2.0, FEAR
Ubisoft/crytek - Rainbow 6 series, farcry
EA/digital illusions - Battlefield 2
Epic - UT series
Valve is good at making cinematic experiences but, in both half life 1 and half life 2 i think it ended being repetitive with a shitty ending.
I think Retro studios and ubisoft will show the rest of the crowd how fps will be done on rev. MP3 will control like an FPS.
The Friendly Monster
Member
Draft said:
Analog isn't just about walking slower. It's not 1995 any more mate.
Red Blaster
Member
Buggy Loop said:
You forgot SWAT 4.
Buggy Loop
Member
littlewig said:
A Function Key which opens doors, operate objects, picks up ammo, etc - A button
Shooting - B trigger on remote
Weapon toggle key - Left/right on Dpad remote just above A button
Reload key - a button
Prone/crouch - Z2 on analog attachement
Switch between view persepctive (like night vision, sniping/aiming, etc) - Up/down on dpad
A key to bring up the map - Start on remote
Jump key - Z1 on analog attachement
Secondary function key - example of this? kinda vague, could be the b button
While crouching you could also tilt the remote on its vertical axis (rotation clockwise/anticlockwise) to lean and have a glimpse of whats' coming around the corner
tehrik-e-insaaf
Member
>>>But the question now becomes: is Nintendo willing (or smart enough) to do this? Sadly, I don't think they are.
I think they are smart enough to realize it didn't work for Microsoft, hence they should probably not do something assinine like spending billions on a bunch of PC devs. They already funded enough of Retro's parties, there is no reason they need to start paying for these other guys' parties to get a game that may or may not sell.
If Nintendo wants to spend money, there are obviously better opportunities out there: Namco/Bandai, Capcom, their own Tokyo studio, and a bunch of indies that are up and coming but supported by talented individuals. Hell they could purchase Take Two based on how poorly the stock has been doing.
I think they are smart enough to realize it didn't work for Microsoft, hence they should probably not do something assinine like spending billions on a bunch of PC devs. They already funded enough of Retro's parties, there is no reason they need to start paying for these other guys' parties to get a game that may or may not sell.
If Nintendo wants to spend money, there are obviously better opportunities out there: Namco/Bandai, Capcom, their own Tokyo studio, and a bunch of indies that are up and coming but supported by talented individuals. Hell they could purchase Take Two based on how poorly the stock has been doing.
Buggy Loop
Member
Well i wasnt really talking about a lineup i would want on revolution by naming these titles, just the dev's experience in FPS games that makes them superior to Valve.
I hope the rev remote is good for fps, but i doubt it'll be as good as a mouse for precise aiming. Not to mention the keyboard, allowing you tons of buttons, and the ability to set things up exactley how you like, quick access to as many different items as you want. Stuff like marcos and binds, just impossible without the mouse/kb. I also don't see the analouge adding movment precision(it hasn't happened yet), you already have different movement styles in games, affecting aiming, and they are very quickly selectable.
Until consoles get a mouse/kb they will never have the definative version of a fps game that also appears on a pc. Hoping ps3 will change that, i have my doubts.
Also Valve is great, i woudn't have enjoyed fps gaming as much without them.
Until consoles get a mouse/kb they will never have the definative version of a fps game that also appears on a pc. Hoping ps3 will change that, i have my doubts.
Also Valve is great, i woudn't have enjoyed fps gaming as much without them.
Draft said:
Someone seriously thinks WASD is better than an analogue? Little update for you sir, WASD is a d-pad. and a broken one at that.
D-pads are better than analogues for FPS games? Could've fooled me.
There are a tonne of functions you can incorporate onto the Rev nunchuks as someones already made examples of. There just won't be as many as a keyboard - but there shouldnt be as thats confusing and annoying. Streamline it, make it intuitive.
As for using a mouse to aim, the revmote can work more like a virtual gun - which sounds ten times more fun than scrolling a mouse around your desk. Try using a laser pointer, and navigating the red dot around your screen, its very accurate and very natural.
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