Nintendo is the only company stilling using patterns (in combination with skill) for boss battles by convention. Look at all their recent games Eternal Darkness, MP/MP2, Zelda WW etc, Star Fox Adventures. Bosses in PC and 3rd party action games are more about fire power (plus skill). So yeah do you think patterns have past their sell by date?
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Nintendo-Style Boss Patterns
- Thread starter nightez
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radioheadrule83
Banned
Nah. Some of them are genius really. If they'd made a few of the wind waker bosses a bit more heart-sapping, one or two of them could have been quite tough as well as entertaining. And thinking about Metroid Prime 1 /2 Jeeeeeeebus... especially Ridley (he's harder in the PAL version), Metroid Prime, and some of the bosses from 2 (spiderball boss, quadraxis etc).
I still find it really satisfying to expose a boss' weakness and battle against my own health for the win..
I still find it really satisfying to expose a boss' weakness and battle against my own health for the win..
I hate run and gun bosses. The shitfest that was Jak II was topped off by the shittiest final boss I've played this gen (RUN IN A GIANT CIRCLE AND SHOOT AT IT HOLY FUCK), and R&C3's was extremely disappointing by being pretty much the same thing, though somewhat saved by Insomniac's ability to make the player familiar with all the weapons in the game and really making them use them to their fullest.
That's not to say I hate shooter game bosses or anything.
MDK2 had a couple pretty damn fun bosses and they relied on skill and precision.
But I do enjoy the theme bosses the most. They're some of my favorite parts of any Zelda game. They're like big interactive puzzles.
That's not to say I hate shooter game bosses or anything.
MDK2 had a couple pretty damn fun bosses and they relied on skill and precision.But I do enjoy the theme bosses the most. They're some of my favorite parts of any Zelda game. They're like big interactive puzzles.
Companion Cube
Member
I agree. Minish Cap has some pretty cool bosses.AniHawk said:I hate run and gun bosses. The shitfest that was Jak II was topped off by the shittiest final boss I've played this gen (RUN IN A GIANT CIRCLE AND SHOOT AT IT HOLY FUCK), and R&C3's was extremely disappointing by being pretty much the same thing, though somewhat saved by Insomniac's ability to make the player familiar with all the weapons in the game and really making them use them to their fullest.
That's not to say I hate shooter game bosses or anything.
But I do enjoy the theme bosses the most. They're some of my favorite parts of any Zelda game. They're like big interactive puzzles.
I preffer phases as well. Most boss fights not impliying phases and weak points mean repeating the same thing along the whole fight until the boss dies. It´s like having to repeat a phase or pattern, but instead repeating it three times or so, 20 or so. It´s boring.
Capcom... well, it´s a mixed bag there. I remember the first boss fight from RE0 as one of the most boring I´ve ever have to get into. On the other side, the first boss fight from RE4 is thrilling.
Capcom... well, it´s a mixed bag there. I remember the first boss fight from RE0 as one of the most boring I´ve ever have to get into. On the other side, the first boss fight from RE4 is thrilling.
Synbios459
Banned
I don't think there has ever been a boss with as many phases as the last boss in Legend of Zelda: Links Awakening (I think it had 7?).
Metroid Prime has great bosses - hard, brutal and awesome.
Wind Waker has "meh" bosses - super-easy, weak and boring. And dumping them on you again near the end of the game was typical Japanese, *sigh*. The only memorable boss fights are that fire worm biting the dragon's tail and first 3 forms of Ganon (PuppetGanon).
OoT Ganon's fight > Wind Waker Ganon's fight
(not looking at the graphics)
Wind Waker has "meh" bosses - super-easy, weak and boring. And dumping them on you again near the end of the game was typical Japanese, *sigh*. The only memorable boss fights are that fire worm biting the dragon's tail and first 3 forms of Ganon (PuppetGanon).
OoT Ganon's fight > Wind Waker Ganon's fight
(not looking at the graphics)
Borys said:
Man, if there's anything I can't stand is fighting the same boss again, especially when it's in the form of "end-of-game-about-to-meet-final-boss-have-to-beat-all-the-other-bosses-again-in-a-tower-or-dream-sequence".
Not because the bosses are bad, but it's extending the game artificially to the most blatant degree.
radioheadrule83
Banned
Borys said:
'Dumping them on you' again has been done before in Zelda. Ganon's Tower A Link to the Past? Exact same thing. The game bares some other similarities too. The helmaroc king = helmasaur king for a new generation. The lan molas sandworm creatures make a return etc.
As for the final battle, I was disappointed we didn't see Ganon in his darker pig-like form. The sword fight was actually really cool, as was the last blow, but it was missing that kind of "ruh roh" feeling you get when Ganon transforms and dwarves you in OoT. He looks awesome in Four Swords Adventures. It's a shame really.
It's great as it is, but with a little more time Wind Waker would have been incredible.
when did that tag get there?MightyHedgehog
Member
One thing I dislike about bosses, at least, since the time past the 16-bit consoles, is that they mostly tend to be too predictable...especially Nintendo's bosses. In the old days, patterns were still new enough and the existence of decent action-based AI was limited to cold-blooded and impossibly (cheap) efficient logic in fighting games. Patterns are fine, as long as they aren't boring and by the numbers once you've identified their existence. The best pattern-based bosses, IMO, still allow for a fair amount of the pure beat-down factor, if you're fast and good enough to eke that damage in. I get irritated anymore if I play games that are too mechanically-grooved...it takes away a lot of chances to really finesse the control and exhibit some home-grown skill, also preventing the game from having some real options that come from player-discovered nuances in the gameplay. Basically, patterns are still okay...as long as they're used either in conjuction with other patterns/tendencies in a dynamically shifting way...kinda of like the tougher opponents in a Punch-Out!! title...interlaced with good and fair AI...and simply allow for the player to get in skill-driven improvisation (beat down skill) to hasten the boss' demise.
Baron Aloha
A Shining Example
What was wrong with the Bowser fight in Sunshine? I thought it was pretty good actually.
The Mario series actually has some of the more memorable boss fights out there. The fights in M64 where you grab Bowser by the tail and swing him around with the analog stick were pure genious on Miyamoto's part.
And lets not forget the kooplings. Those boss battles were great for their time.
And SMB2USA had Mouser, Birdo, and Triclyde.
The Mario series actually has some of the more memorable boss fights out there. The fights in M64 where you grab Bowser by the tail and swing him around with the analog stick were pure genious on Miyamoto's part.
And lets not forget the kooplings. Those boss battles were great for their time.
And SMB2USA had Mouser, Birdo, and Triclyde.
AtomicShroom
Member
I much tend to prefer patterned bosses that have phases and clear weak points (once you find them, that is). I don't like cheap bosses that are all about getting lucky and hoping the enemy randomly drops his guard down when you attack.
Maybe it's just me, but I'm getting tired of end bosses that have like three different forms. It's getting to be too cliché-ed. I just know now that when I'm at the final boss, whatever I see now is not really the final boss.
Maybe it's just me, but I'm getting tired of end bosses that have like three different forms. It's getting to be too cliché-ed. I just know now that when I'm at the final boss, whatever I see now is not really the final boss.
radioheadrule83 said:
I just wish the final Ganondorf battle was more of an actual battle rather than an interactive cutscene.
When he drew his swords, I was like "No fucking way.
"Then I got a 5 minute interactive custcene with Tetra guiding me through it all
*Listens to the Ganondorf battle theme* It does have one of the greatest atmospheres in a battle ever though, when you combine the music with the sinking hyrule and the rain.
I very much appreciate patterns. Of course, as some have mentioned, there are patterns and patterns. It all depends on how good the implementation is.
What I like about patterns, is that they help make the objective clear (you know what you have to do, e.g. attack when the "sensitive spot" is exposed), while still allowing for challenge (doing it is another question).
From my time gaming with some old school games, my approach to boss fights as always been, first observe, then act. Also I've always keept a look-out for those "safe spots" (where bosses won't attack, or evasion is relatively easy). The problem with bad patterns can be that, once you know what to do it's too easy (NES MegaMan games).
Also good patterns don't require you to "explore" the boss too much to figure them out. It should all be more or less obvious: what I've come to appreciate about Zelda games, is that I'm never stuck not knowing what to do. Your actions seem obvious, the patterns are readily deciphered, and the challenge in accomplishing the actions is usually there (WindWaker was kinda easy in that regard I'll admit).
Good patterns also offer a good amount of variation. In the end, I'd like to less call it a pattern, but more a way of letting the player learn/know the boss behaviour (e.g. blinking in Punch-Out)... especially when the boss gets ready to unleash an instant kill blow. If this can be achieved in a less noticeable way, then it would be perfect.
So IMO the perfect boss is one that:
1. requires moderate-level skill to stay at large, observe and learn (2-4mins)
2. offers a good range of "patterns" to guide & control the battle (helps design battles and vary them accross bosses)
3. allows for a moderate amount of errors. Players should be able to realize that they are loosing a battle and given a chance to fight back and struggle... *not* instantly die, or only suffer 2 hits before biting the dust.
The last point is one thing console games usually get better than PC games. I know Doom is Doom, but the reason I stoped playing Doom3 early on is opening a door only to get insta-hit by something 3/4-lethal. I *hate* having to explore things pixel by pixel, because something (lethal) might be lurking around every corner. In Zelda I'm never affraid of dying, because nothing can really quasi-instantaneously kill you... when something that dangerous appears you're not only well aware of it, but that thing also has some ways to go to wear you down!
What I like about patterns, is that they help make the objective clear (you know what you have to do, e.g. attack when the "sensitive spot" is exposed), while still allowing for challenge (doing it is another question).
From my time gaming with some old school games, my approach to boss fights as always been, first observe, then act. Also I've always keept a look-out for those "safe spots" (where bosses won't attack, or evasion is relatively easy). The problem with bad patterns can be that, once you know what to do it's too easy (NES MegaMan games).
Also good patterns don't require you to "explore" the boss too much to figure them out. It should all be more or less obvious: what I've come to appreciate about Zelda games, is that I'm never stuck not knowing what to do. Your actions seem obvious, the patterns are readily deciphered, and the challenge in accomplishing the actions is usually there (WindWaker was kinda easy in that regard I'll admit).
Good patterns also offer a good amount of variation. In the end, I'd like to less call it a pattern, but more a way of letting the player learn/know the boss behaviour (e.g. blinking in Punch-Out)... especially when the boss gets ready to unleash an instant kill blow. If this can be achieved in a less noticeable way, then it would be perfect.
So IMO the perfect boss is one that:
1. requires moderate-level skill to stay at large, observe and learn (2-4mins)
2. offers a good range of "patterns" to guide & control the battle (helps design battles and vary them accross bosses)
3. allows for a moderate amount of errors. Players should be able to realize that they are loosing a battle and given a chance to fight back and struggle... *not* instantly die, or only suffer 2 hits before biting the dust.
The last point is one thing console games usually get better than PC games. I know Doom is Doom, but the reason I stoped playing Doom3 early on is opening a door only to get insta-hit by something 3/4-lethal. I *hate* having to explore things pixel by pixel, because something (lethal) might be lurking around every corner. In Zelda I'm never affraid of dying, because nothing can really quasi-instantaneously kill you... when something that dangerous appears you're not only well aware of it, but that thing also has some ways to go to wear you down!
I love patterend and phase based bosses. It's like a small puzzle you need to figure out how to beat the boss. Minish Cap had some great bosses and you know what, the end guy of Canvas Curse was *AWESOME*. I really hope patterns don't go the way of the dodo as everybody tries for "realistic" AI...
ratcliffja
Member
I prefer a mix of patterns and unpredictability. In other words, I'd enjoy a fight in which the boss randomly switches between attacks, but each attack has a set pattern that allows you to evade and counter it.
I dont like 'gimmicky' bosses where you have to do something dumb to kill the boss. For example, the first boss in Wind Waker, where you swing across to make the ceiling collapse. That's the type of boss battle I hate. Similarly, Quadraxis in Metroid Prime was great until the very last form where
That bugs me. Patterns don't though.
you have to magnet boost jump to his head and then bomb into the bomb slots in his head, why the HELL does his legs have magnet strips, why the hell is his head magnetic, and why the hell does his head have holes so you can easily bomb it?
That bugs me. Patterns don't though.
wind_steaker
Member
I like the Zelda bosses, but I also loved the ones in Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, even though
they were repeated.