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[excelsiorlef]

Made this post for the Josh Gad/Australian same sex marriage thread.

Figured since this has actually been a pretty big deal the quick timeline/research I did would be worth it's own thread. Thread title is firmly mine.

Here's what happened:

Director of the movie let's this slip

”He's confused about what he wants. It's somebody who's just realising that he has these feelings. And Josh makes something really subtle and delicious out of it. And that's what has its payoff at the end, which I don't want to give away. But it is a nice, exclusively gay moment in a Disney movie."

http://attitude.co.uk/world-exclusi...et-to-make-disney-history-with-gay-character/

And everyone goes hey cool and talks about it... now Gad gets asked about gay rights because he's playing a supposedly gay character...

Of course not everyone even agrees he's gay:

However, Alan Menken, the legendary composer of the original animated Disney film, is disagreeing with the live-action film's director and actors on LeFou's sexuality — ambiguous or otherwise.

"You know, I don't see him pining," Menken told ComicBook.com. ”To me, he has always been look[ing] up to Gaston, in a nerdy kind of way."

Menken said media coverage of the topic was "absurd" and "nuts," and called LeFou's sexual orientation "an utter non-issue." He also blamed the journalist from the gay magazine, who first broke the news, for creating smoke without fire.

"I know there's been this whole discussion, which is to me, absolutely absurd. It's just nuts," he said." As far as I can tell, some journalist in England decided to make it his cause célèbre to push this agenda. And it's really not really part of the movie in any overt way at all ... any more than it was in the original. To me, it's an utter non-issue. And I'd appreciate people realizing that it's a non-issue because it's just silly. But that's journalism, and I understand."

http://www.advocate.com/film/2017/3/14/alan-menken-says-lefou-isnt-gay

And Gad wants to have it both ways

LeFou has what Gad calls a ”subtle but incredibly effective" scene during the film's finale that hints at a happily ever after. Gad tells PEOPLE that the moment in the movie teaches an important lesson central to the theme of the film: ”Never judging a book by its cover."

”What I would say is that this film is one of inclusiveness," the 36-year-old says. ”It's one that has something to offer everyone."

http://people.com/movies/josh-gad-gay-moment-beauty-and-the-beast-inclusiveness/

"there was nothing in the script that said ‘LeFou is gay.'"

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/...josh-gad-lefou-beauty-and-the-beast/98679284/

And now the director is backtracking

Going back to Josh, where did the idea of his sexuality come in?
Can I just say, I'm sort of sick of this. Because you've seen the movie — it's such a teeny thing, and it's been overblown.

I was wondering what your interpretation of that was, because it's become this sort of —
Well, people haven't seen the movie. They have to see the movie, and they'll understand that it's not what it's about.

It is such a small part of the movie, but it doesn't feel insignificant.
Yeah, I guess so.

http://www.vulture.com/2017/03/bill-condon-on-directing-beauty-and-the-beast.html

Condon as a gay man should know that LGBT folk are always hoping for representation and that to essentially tease it and then go hey now it's actually not much, it's all overblown is fucking brutal.

Sad thing is Condon is right, the scene is fuck nothing, other than at most an aww cute moment maybe. Spoiler's for that scene:

Spoiler

It's one of those old-timey dances, where the men twirl the women and they change partners. In a roughly three-second cut, LeFou twirls his partner, but instead of another woman twirling into his personal space, it's a man. And they look at each other. And then the camera moves away.

That's it.
If you had hopes and dreams about finally seeing gay inclusivity in a Disney film, you're furious.

And of course media writers love to flog fellow media writers

It exposes the giddy gusto with which the media will create a news vacuum, and suck us all into its void of hot takes and think pieces and talking-head arguments. Even after the film screened for critics and the gay emperor was exposed without his clothes, we still reported and debated that now-naked gay emperor.

Condon gave a statement regretting that so much ado had been made about the "exclusively gay moment." Actor Dan Stevens, who plays the Beast, decried to The Daily Beast that, ”I presume somebody somewhere thought it would drive a lot of traffic to their site, that's usually how these things start." For the love of god, even the voice actor who voiced LeFou in the animated film weighed in on the sexuality.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-how-one-dumb-scene-sparked-global-furor.html

Because apparently being excited for a possibly gay moment and running stories of it based on the director calling it a gay moment. Like read that initial description that's 100% saying LeFou is at least questioning his sexuality (I'd argue t implies much more than that)

The scene though is basically fuck nothing and Condon should have kept is mouth shut because he hyped it up to a freaking Gay Magazine (which somehow it becomes their fault for quoting him)... This is basically Condon's fault, and everyone looks stupid (Condon, Gad, Disney) because of it.

LGBT folk deserve better than having bread crumbs of portrayal in big movies like this, and anyone who says this is anyone but Condon's fault I ask you again to look at the initial quote, it 100% describes the journey many gay folk go through when they first start coming to term with their sexuality, but the reality is that's not what's on screen.

 

[The One and Done™]

I think it's wonderful.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I think it's wonderful.

It might have been if Condon had said nothing. You can't talk about representation like that and then deliver what they did and handle it how they did.

It's 2017 Gay in the shadows gay as deep subtext should be passe.

 

[Astral Dog]

I don't have faith Disney can do this unless its a full on animated movie

 

[xelios]

I can't really appreciate that the gay character we do get is the stereotypical image the average person has in their head of a gay guy that pines after straight men. Consider me unimpressed as a gay man who has no interest in straight men, respects their sexuality and doesn't want to be thought of in that way by the masses.

 

[jacob armitage]

I've not seen the movie so i don't want to comment too strongly yet, but i'm kind of leaning towards any representation still being a step. I wish it was with a stronger, more fleshed out character that was handled a little more tastefully of course. It is a shame with the director back tracking - but most won't be aware of that.

I don't mean to play off stereotypes here, but the character came across as gay in the animated feature too. Just in a somewhat more offensive way.

 

[Shaanyboi]

ParaNorman had the guts to unmistakably give a main character a boyfriend.

Disney wants credit for something they may or may not have said that may or may not hint at a gay character.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I've not seen the movie so i don't want to comment too strongly yet, but i'm kind of leaning towards any representation being an important step. I wish it was with a stronger, more fleshed out character that was handled a little more tastefully of course.

I don't mean to play off stereo types here, but the character came across as gay in the animated feature too. Just in a somewhat more offensive way.

Representation without folks standing behind it is empty. Look at how everything is going down. They are running away from it, downplaying it, blaming the media for it.

Shit apparently Gad didn't even know what Condon was talking about (from the USA today article I posted in the OP)

The live-action Beauty and the Beast doesn't arrive in theaters until March 17, but fans are already buzzing about how the movie features Disney's first gay character, LeFou, played by Josh Gad.

"I haven't seen anything (about that), tell me more," Gad joked on the carpet for the world premiere of Beauty and the Beast Thursday.

They're excited to use our joy for PR and then throw us back in the closest when the heat gets turned on.

 

[PSqueak]

ParaNorman had the guts to unmistakably give a main character a boyfriend.

Disney wants credit for something they may or may not have said that may or may not hint at a gay character.

Also, Paranorman found the way to make "he's gay" a punchline that was not offensive.

Spoiler

Because the joke was Courtney never had a chance because he already has a boy friend.

In any case, when the whole thing blew up i saw many gay people in tumblr who were less than impressed about the idea of seeing themselves represented by a character such as Le Fou.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

Does anyone remember the movie ParaNorman? I don't think it did all that well at the box office, but I really enjoyed it.

It has a similar scene at the end of the movie (randomly confirm a character is gay), except it's better written, and speaks unquestionably about what's going on: https://youtu.be/oK0u0F_Y2EU?t=27s

edit: doh, too slow I guess.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I've not seen the movie so i don't want to comment too strongly yet, but i'm kind of leaning towards any representation being an important step. I wish it was with a stronger, more fleshed out character that was handled a little more tastefully of course. It is a shame with the director back tracking - but most won't be aware of that.

I don't mean to play off stereotypes here, but the character came across as gay in the animated feature too. Just in a somewhat more offensive way.

I mean the director backtracking is getting coverage from Fox News. That's how I found the sourced article about him backtracking, it was a top search result when look for Condon on LeFou, and I just used it to find the original source rather than quote Fox News. So yeah folks are gonna know about it, just not the ones who should know they're being sold out (hence me making this post)

 

[daffy]

Hadn't really seen anyone congratulating Disney but yeah i agree. People are gonna continue expecting more from Disney than Disney has ever given and then being appreciative when they do piecemeal offerings like this

 

[Frozenprince]

ParaNorman had the guts to unmistakably give a main character a boyfriend.

Disney wants credit for something they may or may not have said that may or may not hint at a gay character.

Not only a boyfriend, they unequivocally and with no subtext or "well maybe" about it embrace on screen. Something 99% of MAJOR BLOCKBUSTER AND FILMS WITH A BUDGET LARGER THAN $1M DON'T HAVE THE BALLS TO DO.

Edit: Guess watching the clip I mis-remembered (could have sworn it was but maybe confusing it? No idea), but still, shit's not a "wink wink nudge nudge" thing.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Also, Paranorman found the way to make "he's gay" a punchline that was not offensive.

Spoiler

Because the joke was Courtney never had a chance because he already has a boy friend.

In any case, when the whole thing blew up i saw many gay people in tumblr who were less than impressed about the idea of seeing themselves represented by a character such as Le Fou.

The gay character being LeFou is the first obvious guess as to who they would choose. The only other character would be the clock. But LeFou? He's basically a villain, and I think Disney watchers have enough coded gay villains.

 

[captainpat]

ParaNorman had the guts to unmistakably give a main character a boyfriend.

I'd say they had guts if there was a kiss and/or the boyfriend was show on screen. As it's stand it's just another joke that flew past most kids heads

 

[Mackenzie 92]

watched the movie earlier today. Lefou was great imo, he was handled very well. There's much more than just that one scene you're talking about.

as far as stuff being overblown/hyped whatever. that is the age we live in.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

Nah. I'll congratulate them. Money is everything to the Mouse and they're risking losing buckets of it by not cutting this scene from certain markets.

 

[Shard]

Meanwhile on Disney's Star Vs The Forces of Evil this same-sex kissing for both genders happened not too long ago without too much incident.


http://www.nbcnewyork.com/entertain...-Debuts-Disneys-First-Gay-Kiss-415242133.html

 

[A Link to the Past]

watched the movie earlier today. Lefou was great imo, he was handled very well. There's much more than just that one scene you're talking about.

as far as stuff being overblown/hyped whatever. that is the age we live in.

That's not what's being complained about (not really anyway). It was disappointing, sure, but it's also the fact that Disney hyped it up and then apparently, the irresponsible ones are the ones who took Disney's hype in good faith.

That said, people should absolutely call out hype culture. It's getting people excited and ultimately disappointed.

 

[PeskyToaster]

Representation without folks standing behind it is empty. Look at how everything is going down. They are running away from it, downplaying it, blaming the media for it. They're excited to use our joy for PR and then throw us back in the closest when the heat gets turned on.

This is what you're arguing for by representation though. You are fighting to get mainstream so media companies are comfortable enough to use you to make money instead of fearing they'll lose money.

 

[IsntChrisL]

I never saw that character as gay. He just really, really looked up to Gaston. Granted, they could change things up for 2017 but everything I've seen of this movie so far looks like a very close adaptation of the animated movie.

 

[excelsiorlef]

This is what you're arguing for by representation though. You are fighting to get mainstream so media companies are comfortable enough to use you to make money instead of fearing they'll lose money.

Notice the but they don't get to use us and then throw us under the bus when the heat is on. That's not representation that's exploitation.

 

[Frozenprince]

Honestly, call me when there's kissing.

 

[Transhuman]

Shaanyboi is right we need a live-action ParaNorman movie

 

[jacob armitage]

Representation without folks standing behind it is empty. Look at how everything is going down. They are running away from it, downplaying it, blaming the media for it.

Shit apparently Gad didn't even know what Condon was talking about (from the USA today article I posted in the OP)

For sure, but they still did create a gay character in a major Disney film and that is... well, its something i'd still call a step, even if a small one.

I will add i had no interest in seeing this, as it seemed to be a fairly bland recreation from the trailers but knowing they took the step to add in a more inclusive character to the cast makes me far more interested to support this work. Even after Condon and Gads comments.

I mean the director backtracking is getting coverage from Fox News. That's how I found the sourced article about him backtracking, it was a top search result when look for Condon on LeFou, and I just used it to find the original source rather than quote Fox News. So yeah folks are gonna know about it, just not the ones who should know they're being sold out (hence me making this post)

Its a great post and thank you for bringing it to our attention. It is unfortunate how this is playing out.

 

[PSqueak]

Man, i never thought about it, but let's talk about the paranorman character a bit more, Paranorman is a movie that is about accepting people who are different, in fact during the movie Mitch constantly advices his younger brother that he should be normal and not some wierdo like Norman, Mitch is presented as the paradigm of being normal.

This movie has a gay character as the definition of being normal.Subtle and clever.

 

[excelsiorlef]

For sure, but they still did create a gay character in a major Disney film and that is... well, its something i'd still call a step, even if a small one.

I will add i had no interest in seeing this, as it seemed to be a fairly bland recreation from the trailers but knowing they took the step to add in a more inclusive character to the cast makes me far more interested to support this work. Even after Condon and Gads comments.

But they really kinda sorta didn't... dude the actor had no idea about it when he was point blank asked. about it at the premiere...

Also from the USA Today article:

Condon added, "I think (LeFou's sexuality) has been a little overstated."

 

[zeemumu]

Did people ever raise as much hell about ParaNorman and How To Train Your Dragon (think that one's still in debate) having gay characters as they did about LeFou?

 

[Astral Dog]

I can't really appreciate that the gay character we do get is the stereotypical image the average person has in their head of a gay guy that pines after straight men. Consider me unimpressed as a gay man who has no interest in straight men, respects their sexuality and doesn't want to be thought of in that way by the masses.

At that time,however social norms were different yes even in a Disney movie

 

[PSqueak]

Did people ever raise as much hell about ParaNorman and How To Train Your Dragon having gay characters as they did about LeFou?

I remember people complaining about paranorman, but the outrage was proportional to how the movie fared in theaters :C

 

[jacob armitage]

But they really kinda sorta didn't... dude the actor had no idea about it when he was point blank asked. about it at the premiere...

I'll have to wait until i've seen it to comment further, my only take on it so far is from watching the Double Toasted review where they discuss it and reading the odd article.

It is unfortunate they're backtracking. I wonder if they were asked to downlplay it, and they are just handling that very poorly.

 

[excelsiorlef]

At that time,however social norms were different yes even in a Disney movie

Umm this movie is 2017.

 

[Shogmaster]

I think it's wonderful.

I'll give you an internet hi five if this is a Tombstone character reference.

 

[captainpat]

Did people ever raise as much hell about ParaNorman and How To Train Your Dragon (think that one's still in debate) having gay characters as they did about LeFou?

Nope but that's because ParaNorman only revealed that at the end of the movie and nobody would have known about that character in How To Train Your Dragon being gay had the actor not said anything cause it was that subtle.

 

[HStallion]

They should have made the beast gay and he falls in love with Gatson leaving Belle out in the cold to be eaten by wolves.

 

[zeemumu]

They should have made the beast gay and he falls in love with Gatson leaving Belle out in the cold to be eaten by wolves.

That sounds like Dracula when he steals that woman's baby to give to his wives as food and when the woman came to the castle screaming for her kid he let wolves eat her.

 

[GrizzNKev]

I just got back from the movie, and:

1. None of the characters have any depth or lengthy moments. It's a musical with few breaks. The fact that LeFou's sexuality is hinted at MULTIPLE TIMES is quite an achievement for a movie with so little substance, 3-second cut or not.

2. It is blatantly obvious that the audience is supposed to see him as gay. Everyone in the theater got it by the end. The director only backed off in comments because people were losing their shit and he had nowhere to go.

 

[Astral Dog]

Umm this movie is 2017.

I think a (major) movie showing relationships the and hystoric treatment of lgbt issues at least a bit would be very interesting but its not gonna happen

 

[What did he mean by this?]

Damn theyre really fucking this up publicity wise

 

[excelsiorlef]

I think a (major) movie showing relationships the and hystoric treatment of lgbt issues at least a bit would be very interesting but its not gonna happen

Ok but that's not what you said in your post I replied to, you were talking past tense.

I just got back from the movie, and:

1. None of the characters have any depth or lengthy moments. It's a musical with few breaks. The fact that LeFou's sexuality is hinted at MULTIPLE TIMES is quite an achievement for a movie with so little substance, 3-second cut or not.

2. It is blatantly obvious that the audience is supposed to see him as gay. Everyone in the theater got it by the end. The director only backed off in comments because people were losing their shit and he had nowhere to go.

He had elsewhere to go, plenty of options. This idea that he was powerless so he just had to backtrack is ridiculous.

 

[banktree]

Damn theyre really fucking this up publicity wise

It's still going to make a billion dollars though. The people that care about this weren't going to go see it anyway.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

They should have made the beast gay and he falls in love with Gatson leaving Belle out in the cold to be eaten by wolves.

LGBT+ representation is quite the joke huh

 

[LionPride]

Did people ever raise as much hell about ParaNorman and How To Train Your Dragon (think that one's still in debate) having gay characters as they did about LeFou?

After the fact yeah. Well, not for ParaNorman because no one saw that movie.

 

[hateradio]

I feel like it makes sense that it's a "IT'S FUCKING NOTHING" moment. If you wanted something more, then you're going to have to wait a while. ;p