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[GillianSeed79]

Please, please, please don't turn this into a typical religion thread. This thread isn't about faith or if you even believe in God or if Jesus was raised from the dead, but something I've been noticing recently where I live.

By virtue of my profession (non-religious), I've visited many churches over the course of the past several years. One of the new popular things is non-denominational, somewhat anti-organized Christianity houses of worship where everyone is welcome - black, white, gay, straight that kind of thing. I can't deny that I've felt "moved" sometimes during these church services (most likely due to group psychology), especially compared to the boring Catholic mass I suffered through as a child even though I was an altar boy at one point. But why do they all feel kind of sketchy?

Case in point, I went to this new "ministry" church today that was celebrating the start of its third year. The pastor there is in his 30's. He's doing the whole everyone is a member of the kingdom of God thing and everyone is accepted and the whole divisions and segregation of typical church is evil and bad. Points there right? Then this preacher from Texas that flew down and was friends with gives this balls out sermon. People are doing the "praise Jesus" things in the isles. The congregation is diverse, but mostly poor. The young preacher takes up an offering, asking the church to thank this elder preacher for visiting. After the service I wait to talk to the older preacher because of my job. The young preacher tells me he's (the young preacher) is about to sign a book deal with a publisher, but he's worried because they'd have the rights to his book. He tells me that if they make a movie about it and it makes millions of dollars he's worried he'll only get a thanks and a handshake. Instantly I'm suspicious.

Then I interview the older preacher in the church office. Instantly I notice the guy (he's a big fat white guy btw) is literally covered in "bling". Guy is changed out of his suit and is literally wearing a track suit, has large diamond encrusted rings on both hands and a platinum watch encrusted with fucking diamonds and a platinum cross around his neck. WTF? Guy was an awesome preacher, but, fuck, fuck, fuck.

Then there was the other awesome church I went to previously. Same kind of thing. Everyone is accepted, tax collectors, etc. They even go out into the poor neighborhoods and hand out turkeys and minister in the places where you will get shot for looking at someone the wrong way. They used to meet in an old warehouse because they couldn't afford a church. Great right? Awesome people. Poor people mostly. But when they went to buy a new place, the "pastor" was so desperate for money to buy this new place to have a church that people williningly did shit like selling precious family heirlooms and such to buy this place. Why? What does it fucking matter where you worship? It's just so god damn sketchy.

I'm with the whole I like your Christ, but I don't really like your Christians crowd, but everytime I meet actual Christians that actually follow Christ's teachings the guy that leads them always seems like the sketchy con-artist. Sorry for the long rant, but the diamond rings and watch really pissed me off.

 

[Kwixotik]

I've been to a couple churches in my town that are exactly like this. I don't really have much to add, but I agree with you.

 

[Air]

That's because most churches are terribad. It's most likely a problem with the structure and idea of a chruch that lends itself to abuse so easily. You're better off just looking for little meetings where people discuss it (the content of the religion and its practices) instead of being preached at.

 

[BlackGoku03]

Christians are supposed to fellowship with one another, correct? How many denominations do you see fellowshipping? Not many.

Inter-denominational churches are better because they aren't tied down by tradition. They aren't tied down by rules and regulations that have nothing to do with the concept of a church. Baptists, Pentecostals, Catholics, and other denominations don't fellowship by virtue of being a denomination.

Luke 11:17 says a divided house will fall. Just look at Christianity! So many houses and so many subsets and divisions with small differences. It's crazy. And it's no wonder we have crazies who call themselves Christians.

But anyway... That's the only type of church I go to. Especially since it's easier to go to this type of church when you're in the military... a lot of people feel better going to an inter-denominational church.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

churches are a business, I'm surprised that you're surprised that the leader of said business is enjoying himself. If it's a church that is telling everyone that 10% of their income is required 'for jesus', then well....

 

[speculawyer]

I don't mean to sound like a jerk or anything . . . but how exactly can you tell the difference between "actually following Christ's teachings or clever scams"?

People interpret things differently. Catholics, baptists, lutherans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc. The only way to know if it is a 'scam' is to be able to read the soul of the preacher.

And it is not like this is anything new. There were all sorts of different Christian sects at the very start. Paul's crowd, Gnostics, Ebionites, Marcionites, etc. There were Christians that believed in 1 god, 2 gods, 3 gods . . . even a Christian sect that believed in 365 gods.

So you have to decide for yourself. But I agree . . . the bling . . . seems very un-Jesus like to me. Camel through the eye of the needle, give away your possessions, help the poor, and all that.

 

[BlackGoku03]

To address your post OP (sorry to DP), Churches are filled with people and people aren't perfect.

Finding a church home is difficult and can be off-putting. A lot of people treat church like a business and a lot of people take up building funds and never get a building. You have to be careful of churches like those. It's even harder to find a good non-denominational church too. Why? because it's being led by people and people are fallible. Just the way things are.

I've been to churches where they say to throw away all your secular music and movies. I've been to churches where they say women can't wear pants and ear rings. I've been to all types of churches who make shit up to make you feel like you're a Christian. A hardcore Christian at that. but none of the shit makes you closer to Jesus.


The bases of Christianity is your relationship with Jesus Christ. If you go to a church and your relationship isn't growing, then it's time to go.

I hope you find a good church.

 

[GillianSeed79]

Christians are supposed to fellowship with one another, correct? How many denominations do you see fellowshipping? Not many.

Inter-denominational churches are better because they aren't tied down by tradition. They aren't tied down by rules and regulations that have nothing to do with the concept of a church. Baptists, Pentecostals, Catholics, and other denominations don't fellowship by virtue of being a denomination.

Luke 11:17 says a divided house will fall. Just look at Christianity! So many houses and so many subsets and divisions with small differences. It's crazy. And it's no wonder we have crazies who call themselves Christians.

But anyway... That's the only type of church I go to. Especially since it's easier to go to this type of church when you're in the military... a lot of people feel better going to an inter-denominational church.

And that's great. I'm older now, so I'm not as much a fervent, frothing atheist these days. I'm still an agnostic. It's just, here I went to this "church" today and I literally felt good listening to this preacher. I know that's stupid. I literally felt something. I've felt it before occassionally, but it's definitely a feeling. I know it's stupid and it doesn't make sense. It's like a small high if you will. I can't explain it. All that was just sucked out the second I saw the guy's jewelry, especially after seeing the people in that church.

 

[piratepwnsninja]

Christians are supposed to fellowship with one another, correct? How many denominations do you see fellowshipping? Not many.

Inter-denominational churches are better because they aren't tied down by tradition. They aren't tied down by rules and regulations that have nothing to do with the concept of a church. Baptists, Pentecostals, Catholics, and other denominations don't fellowship by virtue of being a denomination.

Luke 11:17 says a divided house will fall. Just look at Christianity! So many houses and so many subsets and divisions with small differences. It's crazy. And it's no wonder we have crazies who call themselves Christians.

But anyway... That's the only type of church I go to. Especially since it's easier to go to this type of church when you're in the military... a lot of people feel better going to an inter-denominational church.

I agree here. I don't think there are any more scam-churches that are non-denominational than there are denominational ones that are. I think you went to a potentially bad one, because honestly if the preachers book did become a movie, he shouldn't be worried about the money so much as the message, so that seems a bit alarming.

 

[Korey]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megachurch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McChurch

Some of these are almost definitely scams. Well, maybe not "scams" but they get millions of dollars in revenue, are tax exempt, and the leaders are rich as fuck. I wouldn't be surprised if the leaders of these "churches" were completely faking all of it and were in it for the money only.

While precise definitions of a McChurch also differ, McClory attempted to list the following common elements, which he found at Willow Creek and other similar churches:

• Presentations and sermons with an emphasis on entertainment, use of modern theatrical technology, and a heavy "feel-good" tone, at the expense of religious experiences such as guilt and self-sacrifice. McClory described the overall sermon content of such churches as "the basic salvation message in contemporary dress and without any of the bitter side effects."
  
  
• The incorporation of revenue-generating businesses within the main church building. This included bookstores, nurseries and day-care centers, gyms, and cafeterias.
  
  
• Primarily located in suburban and exurban areas, ostensibly to attract higher-class attendees and boost donations. McClory noted that Willow Creek is located in a remote, wooded area, and all attendees required an automobile to attend. He also reported that the church's attendees are almost all drawn from the surrounding upper-class subdivisions of northwest Chicago suburbs.

Critics of megachurches claim that such churches are more concerned with entertainment than religion. Al Sharpton has claimed that such churches focus on personal morality issues while ignoring social justice.

Critics have also raised issues with the application of corporate business models, e.g., from Wal-Mart; a seeker-friendly approach, intensive market research, heavy reliance upon opinion polls, polished advertising targeted at affluent young professionals, unconventional worship styles and Eastern influences.

Some megachurches, such as the Christian Open Door, are sometimes criticized by former members and anti-cult associations for an alleged use of cultic practices. A number of pastors of megachurch have also faced allegations of sex- and drug-related crimes. These include but are not limited to Ted Haggard, who admitted to methamphetamine use, paying to have sex with a male prostitute, and having sex with a male member of his congregation, and Eddie Long, who is accused of luring two male teenagers into attending his church and forcing sex upon them. Also, Earl Paulk was accused of child molestation and a number of affairs, including committing an adultery with his wife's sister and fathering a child by her.

Another concern with megachurches is their tax-exempt status. These churches generate millions of dollars in revenue and are not subject to the same disclosures that charities are on tax-exempt revenues. This has received attention from the US Senate. A megachurch was investigated by a media outlet for allegedly illegal contributions to the political campaigns of Republican candidates and one has been accused of embezzlement.

 

[akira28]

Some are on the level, others probably have become business ventures by now.

 

[GillianSeed79]

I don't mean to sound like a jerk or anything . . . but how exactly can you tell the difference between "actually following Christ's teachings or clever scams"?

People interpret things differently. Catholics, baptists, lutherans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc. The only way to know if it is a 'scam' is to be able to read the soul of the preacher.

And it is not like this is anything new. There were all sorts of different Christian sects at the very start. Paul's crowd, Gnostics, Ebionites, Marcionites, etc. There were Christians that believed in 1 god, 2 gods, 3 gods . . . even a Christian sect that believed in 365 gods.

So you have to decide for yourself. But I agree . . . the bling . . . seems very un-Jesus like to me. Camel through the eye of the needle, give away your possessions, help the poor, and all that.

No, no. I'm not saying that the teaching is a scam, it's just that there is a disconnect with me when I see these churches that are teaching something I believe in, i.e. Christ's teachings, and then seeing them prey on the most vunerable that make up their congregations.

 

[BlackGoku03]

And that's great. I'm older now, so I'm not as much a fervent, frothing atheist these days. I'm still an agnostic. It's just, here I went to this "church" today and I literally felt good listening to this preacher. I know that's stupid. I literally felt something. I've felt it before occassionally, but it's definitely a feeling. I know it's stupid and it doesn't make sense. It's like a small high if you will. I can't explain it. All that was just sucked out the second I saw the guy's jewelry, especially after seeing the people in that church.

That's not a bad thing. You did the right thing. I wouldn't go back either.

At the same time, if a preacher is preaching prosperity, I wouldn't want him to be a bum on the street either. That's just like having a fat man telling you how to lose weight. That's straight from my FEMALE pastor.

But feelings come and go. Real results come from how your relationship with Christ is.

 

[entremet]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megachurch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McChurch

Some of these are almost definitely scams. Well, maybe not "scams" but they get millions of dollars in revenue, are tax exempt, and the leaders are rich as fuck. I wouldn't be surprised if the leaders of these "churches" were completely faking all of it and were in it for the money only.

Not all Non-denominational churches are mega churches.

 

[rpmurphy]

There are other types of non-denominational churches as well, like ones that serve various Asian communities. The ones I've visited were pretty decent organizations, nothing like the "bling" types.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

I don't believe your experience has much to do with the fact that it's non-denominational. Generally I find them to be healthier since they don't have all the bureaucracy, and they tend to not segregate themselves as much.

 

[way more]

I don't see what it matters if the church leaders wears robes of gold or rags as long as the congregation gets what they want. Why do people go to church anyway? If they get what they want then good for everyone.

 

[Orayn]

The last contact I had with a non-denominational church was hanging out with a pastor's son who liked to go on about how his community did Christianity the right way and wasn't anything like the heretical wretches you'd find elsewhere. Dude was alright about most things, but unfortunately his religious beliefs were that of a raging fundamentalist and extreme social conservative.

That's because most churches are terribad. It's most likely a problem with the structure and idea of a chruch that lends itself to abuse so easily. You're better off just looking for little meetings where people discuss it (the content of the religion and its practices) instead of being preached at.

I'd echo this advice. Find a place where the people and the message work for you, worry about denomination later. That's what lead my family to switch from an Evangelical Lutheran congregation to a Moravian one, moreso than attachment or disillusionment directed at either group. (I'm a closeted atheist recognized by my parents as "less religious" and I'm just kind of going along for the ride.)

 

[Nocebo]

I don't see what it matters if the church leaders wears robes of gold or rags as long as the congregation gets what they want. Why do people go to church anyway? If they get what they want then good for everyone.

You really think there's nothing wrong with emotionally manipulating people into giving money when there's not really a valid reason to do so? Just because they don't realize it or seem to not mind doesn't make it right. Some only realize when it's too late.
This is just generally speaking, so not just certain megachurches and the like.
I guess the question is are they really getting what they want or do they only think they're getting what they want. And if a person is only getting convinced that they're getting what they want but they're really not... is that ok?

 

[BlackGoku03]

That's the thing... you kind of don't know when and where it's happening. You have no proof or idea.

That's what sucks about choosing a church. A lot of things to consider and look for.

 

[FrostuTheNinja]

It's things like this that solidify my belief that worship should be very personal. Almost teetering the edge of privacy. Definitely not surrounded by zealots and criminals, whispering poison in your ear.

 

[Aika'svyse]

Solomon did the work of God and he was prospered too. I would rather see someone eat than have a gold chain, but then i think am I as bad as those preachers. I have a giant back log of games. movies. Sometimes I'm not very practical with money. Sometimes I give to charitys. Who knows what these preachers are doing for charity. But as a rule I'd only join a church that serves their congregation. The church i got baptised at had this thing, every week they supply one of the members needs. If you needed a bill paid, or new eyeglasses they would get it for you.