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[El_Mau]

I do not know how someone can say "Trump is a fascist racist misogynist hate mongering monster who is doing serious damage to our country by even being in the race" and then turn around and say "but it is important to show solidarity with his people, you know, to show that we can bridge the gap and stand together and all that"

Isn't that what Michelle was trying to say with "When they go low, We go high"?

 

[Father_Brain]

This sentiment is something I thought of when thinking of why it's unjust to support the GOP.

But as duck roll and others have been explaining, when is the time to course correct? Whose job should it be to extend an arm across from the other side? When should we try to make amends with other people? In this small time of need that could be a symptom of larger and worse things to come? At the end of a needless conflict that could or could not happen if things continue this way?

You make it sound like bipartisanship and post-partisanship are completely new concepts, not something Democrats and centrists have attempted for years with no success in stopping the GOP's shift to the right.

 

[Crash Station]

I wouldn't go that far myself, but I otherwise agree with your larger point. It's an act of good will toward a political opponent.

I don't necessarily mean to the same level, but definitely hypocritical. We can point to several "harmful" ideologies and vehemently disagree with what they stand for, but still rightfully stand with them in solidarity when a tragedy hits them or the climate becomes hostile toward them. I mean, that's pretty much how the conversations go on a major religion these days.

And not to say this is some kind of high scale tragedy, but an attack is an attack and actively working against positive efforts in the aftermath is on the same level as victim-blaming IMO.

 

[JP_]

Isn't that what Michelle was trying to say with "When they go low, We go high"?

This.

 

[metalslimer]

You make it sound like bipartisanship and post-partisanship are completely new concepts, not something Democrats and centrists have attempted for years with no success in stopping the GOP's shift to the right.

For purely selfish reasons, it should be done because it shows the other side is better than them.

Once again, even if you disagree with it, the PR boost is better for the democrats than the money the GOP is actually getting out of it especially if turns out it was a democrat that did it.

 

[ElFly]

That's a stupid oversimplification, sorry. You could extend that argument to justify just about anything. Someone threw away a bunch of R votes? I guess you'd be against getting them out of the trash and counting them because that'd be helping them. For the record, I didn't donate anything, but I'm glad the donations happened. You say you're against the firebombing, but your words hold little weight when you literally argue that people shouldn't put their money where their mouth is.

This money isn't about helping Trump get elected, it's about sending a message that we're better than that. It sends a message that we are confident we can win without cheating. That's a message worth sending.

this is not even about donald trump; if you think that is the problem here you are the one oversimplifying

you just cannot morally donate to them (either directly or indirectly by donating to help them rebuild, thus saving them money) without thus being _directly_ in support of racism and homophobia and ... god. everything else

I am sorry you can only hold political positions so simple that whenever you have to feel empathy for your opponent you gotta donate money to them to prove it, because of such a simplistic reasoning as "putting your money where your mouth is"

there's no cheating here. these things happen, it's why people spend money on security in the first place.

 

[The Technomancer]

Isn't that what Michelle was trying to say with "When they go low, We go high"?

So how much have you donated to the Trump campaign in the name of making sure they get a fair shake? I mean, the Democrats really are outraising them dramatically. Seems like the proper thing to do is make sure the scales aren't tipped too unfairly

 

[Haunted]

Trump has taken the Republicans so far right that they're now perceived as a threat to US democracy itself by some.

Great, just great.

 

[Laevateinn]

Isn't that what Michelle was trying to say with "When they go low, We go high"?

This sort of thing sounds nice in a convention speech but it's why I can't be a Democrat. When the other side declares war on you, by acting high and mighty all you do is cede ground. Jesus was still crucified and if the Republicans get control of all chambers of government we all will be too.

 

[piratepwnsninja]

For purely selfish reasons, it should be done because it shows the other side is better than them.

It also makes the point of "we do not condone these actions even if they affiliate with our party," which is something the right has had lots of problems doing.

 

[The Technomancer]

Turning the other cheek does not mean following it up with "thank you sir may I have another"

 

[KHarvey16]

this is not even about donald trump; if you think that is the problem here you are the one oversimplifying

you just cannot morally donate to them (either directly or indirectly by donating to help them rebuild, thus saving them money) without thus being _directly_ in support of racism and homophobia and ... god. everything else

I am sorry you can only hold political positions so simple that whenever you have to feel empathy for your opponent you gotta donate money to them to prove it, because of such a simplistic reasoning as "putting your money where your money is"

there's no cheating here. these things happen, it's why people spend money on security in the first place.

It's not saving them money! This violent act should not have taken place, and those donating don't feel any political party should suffer any consequences whatsoever due to it. How hard is this to understand? I really don't get it.

Honestly I find this whole line of thinking pretty terrible.

 

[KHarvey16]

So how much have you donated to the Trump campaign in the name of making sure they get a fair shake? I mean, the Democrats really are outraising them dramatically. Seems like the proper thing to do is make sure the scales aren't tipped too unfairly

Raising more money is not the same as burning down an office.

This is fucking childish.

 

[Crash Station]

Turning the other cheek does not mean following it up with "thank you sir may I have another"

That's not a valid analogy for donating after an attack, like, at all.

 

[sonicmj1]

So how much have you donated to the Trump campaign in the name of making sure they get a fair shake? I mean, the Democrats really are outraising them dramatically. Seems like the proper thing to do is make sure the scales aren't tipped too unfairly

That's not what this is about at all. The GoFundMe exists for the specific purpose of counteracting the impact of political violence, because no organization should be subject to it.

If the Republican Party fades into irrelevance because they raise less money and don't get as many votes, then that's democracy at work. That's legitimate and fair.

It's not saving them money! This violent act should not have taken place, and those donating don't feel any political party should suffer any consequences whatsoever due to it. How hard is this to understand? I really don't get it.

Honestly I find this whole line of thinking pretty terrible.

Exactly.

 

[JP_]

It's not saving them money! This violent act should not have taken place, and those donating don't feel any political party should suffer any consequences whatsoever due to it. How hard is this to understand? I really don't get it.

Honestly I find this whole line of thinking pretty terrible.

They're simply reducing it to "GOP is bad so I can justify anything that happens to them"

If you're against the firebombing, you should be for righting the wrong of the firebombing -- otherwise you're effectively condoning the firebombing.

 

[piratepwnsninja]

They're simply reducing it to "GOP is bad so I can justify anything that happens to them"

If you're against the firebombing, you should be for righting the wrong of the firebombing -- otherwise you're effectively condoning the firebombing.

This.

 

[The Technomancer]

They're simply reducing it to "GOP is bad so I can justify anything that happens to them"

If you're against the firebombing, you should be for righting the wrong of the firebombing -- otherwise you're effectively condoning the firebombing.

There are a lot of other wrongs to be righted I think belong higher on the list, quite frankly. And that's what this boils down to to me. I am staggered by the priorities on display here. Floored that people had money and chose, out of all the causes in need, to pick this one.

I don't think its invoking "children in Africa" to maybe wonder if a suicide hotline for transgender people that saw a 200% increase in calls in the wake of recent developments in North Carolina might have more use for funds than a political office dedicated to hating them

 

[piratepwnsninja]

There are a lot of other wrongs to be righted I think belong higher on the list, quite frankly. And that's what this boils down to to me. I am staggered by the priorities on display here. Floored that people had money and chose, out of all the causes in need, to pick this one.

Maybe they donate to other things, too?

 

[Crosseyes]

We still have peaceful means to defeat Trump.

I still don't see anyone saying that these steps are necessary right now as there's still an election coming up that can be used to figuratively firebomb the GOP instead of literally.

I can understand, utterly and completely why some would be driven to this. I still sympathize heavily with minorities and the drastic few who take action in the recent police shootings, using violence when peaceful means truly have no way of fighting out of their situation

But we still have those peaceful means for now to get Trump to fuck off.

Maybe his ilk continue to fight and eventually see no other way but violence to reach their goals the same way I sympathize with others oppressed by police. Maybe one day Trump is the spark that leads to civil war but so long as peace is an option to defeat your enemies it should be used to its utmost.

 

[KHarvey16]

There are a lot of other wrongs to be righted I think belong higher on the list, quite frankly. And that's what this boils down to to me. I am staggered by the priorities on display here. Floored that people had money and chose, out of all the causes in need, to pick this one.

Do you imagine people, with their wallets out, walking into a room toward two collection boxes - one labelled "rebuild GOP hate factory" and the other labelled "save puppies"? This reductive either or type false dilemma nonsense is usually saved for discussions about NASA and why space is dumb, save the whales.

 

[Opto]

This week in "You're Not Helping"

 

[echoshifting]

I have mixed feelings about the donations, but we are going to have to find a way out of this clusterfuck the GOP let loose in our democracy after Trump loses, somehow. I'm extremely pessimistic that any actual positive change will result from this particular olive branch, but who knows. Maybe it will. Stranger things have happened.

I am mostly just sad this happened at all. I'm tired of living at the boiling point, as so many of us are. I have always loved following politics, especially elections. This one has been a series of nightmares I fear will never end. If some feel like we have to draw a line, despite what these people believe, despite what they've done...can't say I blame them.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

Divided? It's more like white males vs the rest of us.

If it's "white males VS the rest of us", then where does that put white males who are voting for Hillary? Should they just vote Trump instead because their team has already been decided for them?

 

[The Technomancer]

Do you imagine people, with their wallets out, walking into a room toward two collection boxes - one labelled "rebuild GOP hate factory" and the other labelled "save puppies"? This reductive either or type false dilemma nonsense is usually saved for discussions about NASA and why space is dumb, save the whales.

I imagine people, aware on at least some level of charity organizations supporting causes they care about, going through their day to day lives much as I do without pulling out their wallets to donate, unless, again usually as I am, sparked to by someone reminding them. I imagine those same people seeing this fundraiser tonight, realizing they can spare $50, and somehow not pausing to think "wait...I have $50 I can afford to give to a cause in need, am I sure this is where I want to put that money?"

 

[Iksenpets]

They're simply reducing it to "GOP is bad so I can justify anything that happens to them"

If you're against the firebombing, you should be for righting the wrong of the firebombing -- otherwise you're effectively condoning the firebombing.

Yeah, the GOP is awful, but they deserve restitution from acts of violence, same as anyone else. And given that Trump is trying to rally his base around this, an over-the-top display of solidarity is useful politically to counter that.

 

[KHarvey16]

I imagine people, aware on at least some level of charity organizations supporting causes they care about, going through their day to day lives much as I do without pulling out their wallets to donate, unless, again usually as I am, sparked to by someone reminding them. I imagine those same people seeing this fundraiser tonight, realizing they can spare $50, and somehow not pausing to think "wait...I have $50 I can afford to give to a cause in need, am I sure this is where I want to put that money?"

Or maybe they think the preservation of democracy and the repudiation of violence as a way to influence that process is worth $50. I suppose if you were there to tell them how to spend their money they wouldn't make such a hateful mistake next time.

 

[El_Mau]

So how much have you donated to the Trump campaign in the name of making sure they get a fair shake? I mean, the Democrats really are outraising them dramatically. Seems like the proper thing to do is make sure the scales aren't tipped too unfairly

Can't donate, I'm not an American citizen, I did try to donate to Clinton campaign but my CC was declined.

Guys it's your country and you can do whatever you want with it, but just remember that a house divided agaisnt itself cannot stand.

 

[stupei]

They're simply reducing it to "GOP is bad so I can justify anything that happens to them"

If you're against the firebombing, you should be for righting the wrong of the firebombing -- otherwise you're effectively condoning the firebombing.

This is a little unfair given that the North Carolina GOP in particular is incredibly heinous and has played an active role in directing negative sentiments at an already vulnerable minority population.

They didn't deserve to be bombed but they also don't deserve my money, personally.

I don't begrudge anyone else donating, not in the slightest, but I think it's unfair to pretend there's no reason to feel any discomfort knowing the money goes to fund a platform targeted at removing human rights and increasing the likelihood of LGBTQ teens committing suicide. Those concepts are far less abstract to me than the idea of fair play. I don't really see it as either viewpoint being "wrong" so much as which of the two uncomfortable, awful realities may strike closer to home.

I wish people weren't discussing it in such simplistic terms, as if donating is obviously the right thing to do or donating obviously means you don't prioritize these causes.

I think it's much more fair to admit there's a lot more grey here than that.

 

[The Technomancer]

Or maybe they think the preservation of democracy and the repudiation of violence as a way to influence that process is worth $50. I suppose if you were there to tell them how to spend their money they wouldn't make such a hateful mistake next time.

It contributes to the normalization of the modern GOP as an acceptable political party, one that has a place in our democratic process. Its a staggering whiplash from the way we talk about the modern GOP in just about any other circumstance

 

[LudicrousSpeed]

It's not saving them money! This violent act should not have taken place, and those donating don't feel any political party should suffer any consequences whatsoever due to it. How hard is this to understand? I really don't get it.

Honestly I find this whole line of thinking pretty terrible.

I just about 100% guarantee they have insurance. That insurance will pay for the rebuilding, unless, of course, a bunch of idiot liberals decide to cover that for them, in which case they'll be free to convert those insurance monies into campaign funds.

This shouldn't have happened. It will be investigated, and I hope the perpetrator is caught and convicted. But these things do happen. If they have insurance, they're not going to be out any money. On the very slim chance that they decided to skip the insurance, it means they gambled against a random event like this from happening to lower their operating costs and put more money into campaigning.

In neither case should you feel sorry for the financial plight of the NC GOP. And if you do, then I'm going to hope you've been making donations to every church, synagogue, mosque, and health care facility that has been attacked in America, because if not, then I'd really have to question why it was only when a bunch of white racists felt the sting that you thought it was a good idea to whip out your checkbook.

 

[Snake]

If some of you seriously don't understand why people would condemn political violence against opponents in our democracy, at least try and understand that to discourage this is to discourage future violence that might happen in retaliation for events such as this.

I do not support the GOP in any way. I would gladly see every Republican in the country voted out. I also do not support violence in any capacity against the Republican Party. The people who attacked this site do not speak for me, and this should be said loudly and clearly. The leadership of the GOP has failed time and time again to rein in the worst elements of their party and their ideological similars. I don't want to be like them.

 

[Orayn]

Do you imagine people, with their wallets out, walking into a room toward two collection boxes - one labelled "rebuild GOP hate factory" and the other labelled "save puppies"? This reductive either or type false dilemma nonsense is usually saved for discussions about NASA and why space is dumb, save the whales.

My feeling is that the box still has the label "rebuild GOP hate factory" even in the most idealistic interpretation of the scenario and I could easily withhold money from it with a clear conscience.

 

[sphagnum]

Everyone who donates while calling themselves progressive ought to be ashamed of themselves. Preserving democracy does not mean providing material aid to fascists.

 

[The Kree]

If it's "white males VS the rest of us", then where does that put white males who are voting for Hillary? Should they just vote Trump instead because their team has already been decided for them?

That's not what he's saying. We know that there are white men voting for Hillary. We also know that white men are the only group still keeping Trump competitive.

 

[Riposte]

It contributes to the normalization of the modern GOP as an acceptable political party, one that has a place in our democratic process.

I'm guessing the people who burned down this office agree this is a problem.

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm guessing the people who burned down this office agree this is a problem.

I do actually believe the best way to drive them out is to defeat them democratically. But I see no reason to offer them a hand up while they're on the ground when they are perfectly capable of picking themselves up

 

[KHarvey16]

It contributes to the normalization of the modern GOP as an acceptable political party, one that has a place in our democratic process. Its a staggering whiplash from the way we talk about the modern GOP in just about any other circumstance

It contributes to the repudiation of violence as an acceptable response to politics. I can see that bothers you.

I just about 100% guarantee they have insurance. That insurance will pay for the rebuilding, unless, of course, a bunch of idiot liberals decide to cover that for them, in which case they'll be free to convert those insurance monies into campaign funds.

This shouldn't have happened, but these things do happen. If they have insurance, they're not going to be out any money. On the very slim chance that they decided to skip the insurance, it means they gambled against a random event like this from happening to lower their operating costs and put more money into campaigning.

In neither case should you feel sorry for the financial plight of the NC GOP. And if you do, then I'm going to hope you've been making donations to every church, synagogue, mosque, and health care facility that has been attacked in America, because if not, then I'd really have to question why it was only when a bunch of white racists felt the sting that you thought it was a good idea to whip out your checkbook.

Insurance is an absolutely ridiculous justification and your insinuations are completely out of line.

My feeling is that the box still has the label "rebuild GOP hate factory" even in the most idealistic interpretation of the scenario and I could easily withhold money from it with a clear conscience.

You can certainly choose not to contribute to what many consider the ideals of a fair democracy. It's just that calling others stupid for doing so, as some here have done, is childish.

 

[Big Baybee]

Don't give them fucking money.

 

[The Technomancer]

You can certainly choose not to contribute to what many consider the ideals of a fair democracy. It's just that calling others stupid for doing so, as some here have done, is childish.

You don't see how some people find donating to an organization that routinely makes it a point to both piss on the ideals of democracy and increasingly human rights in the name of "the ideals of democracy" isn't itself childish? This approaches "the real intolerance is being intolerant of my hate".

Tell me, if evidence came out that this location in particular was a nexus of organization for voter suppression, would you still be supportive of having it rebuilt?

 

[Squirrel Killer]

Turning the other cheek does not mean following it up with "thank you sir may I have another"

Actually, that's exactly what it means.

 

[duckroll]

I do actually believe the best way to drive them out is to defeat them democratically. But I see no reason to offer them a hand up while they're on the ground when they are perfectly capable of picking themselves up

The issue isn't about you personally lending a hand though. It's about begrudging others from lending a hand. It just shows how poisonous the entire process has become.

 

[Orayn]

You can certainly choose not to contribute to what many consider the ideals of a fair democracy. It's just that calling others stupid for doing so, as some here have done, is childish.

I personally think it's unwise and ineffective to reach out in the name of democracy to people who seemingly don't believe in democracy. (Based on rhetoric about jailing the opposition if they win and the election being rigged if they lose.)

 

[Puppet Shadow]

I personally think it's unwise and ineffective to reach out in the name of democracy to people who seemingly don't believe in democracy. (Based on rhetoric of jailing the opposition and the election being rigged if they lose.)

Reaching out is still better than any alternatives,

 

[JP_]

This is a little unfair given that the North Carolina GOP in particular is incredibly heinous and has played an active role in directing negative sentiments at an already vulnerable minority population.

They didn't deserve to be bombed but they also don't deserve my money, personally.

I don't begrudge anyone else donating, not in the slightest, but I think it's unfair to pretend there's no reason to feel any discomfort knowing the money goes to fund a platform targeted at removing human rights and increasing the likelihood of LGBTQ teens committing suicide. Those concepts are far less abstract to me than the idea of fair play. I don't really see it as either viewpoint being "wrong" so much as which of the two uncomfortable, awful realities may strike closer to home.

I wish people weren't discussing it in such simplistic terms, as if donating is obviously the right thing to do or donating obviously means you don't prioritize these causes.

I think it's much more fair to admit there's a lot more grey here than that.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting everyone should donate or that it's wrong not to donate. Partly because of the same reasons you outlined, I didn't and won't donate. I'm arguing against people that are suggesting dems shouldn't have started this gofundme because they can only see it as helping the GOP. Donating is a personal choice (as you seem to agree), but suggesting nobody should right this wrong is simply condoning it (you don't seem to be making this argument, but others are). If someone says the GOP doesn't deserve to be bombed, they can't turn around and argue the GOP deserves the outcome of the bombing, which is what these people are effectively suggesting.

 

[j_k_redtail]

I personally think it's unwise and ineffective to reach out in the name of democracy to people who seemingly don't believe in democracy. (Based on rhetoric about jailing the opposition if they win and the election being rigged if they lose.)

Then why draw the line at material support? Why even bother condemning the attack?

It's one thing to say that you (not specifically you, but general "you") don't feel comfortable donating to this effort. But it's ridiculous to shame people for doing so.

 

[KHarvey16]

You don't see how some people find donating to an organization that routinely makes it a point to both piss on the ideals of democracy and increasingly human rights in the name of "the ideals of democracy" isn't itself childish? This approaches "the real intolerance is being intolerant of my hate". Odds are pretty decent the NC GOP will use the saved insurance money to engage in some form of voter suppression of their own

Do you find appointing public defenders to career criminals to be supporting these individuals and their actions with tax money? Or is it a duty of the justice system to ensure fair representation for all citizens?

This is precisely the same reasoning. Political parties should never, ever be disadvantaged by acts of violence. The victim in this scenario is not the party but the system of democracy they operate under.

 

[The Technomancer]

Do you find appointing public defenders to career criminals to be supporting these individuals and their actions with tax money? Or is it a duty of the justice system to ensure fair representation for all citizens?

This is precisely the same reasoning. Political parties should never, ever be disadvantaged by acts of violence. The victim in this scenario is not the party but the system of democracy they operate under.

A system that the GOP is in the active process of victimizing.

 

[KHarvey16]

A system that the GOP is in the active process of victimizing.

Just think about what you're saying here for, like, two seconds.

 

[Orayn]

Then why draw the line at material support? Why even bother condemning the attack?

It's one thing to say that you (not specifically you, but general "you") don't feel comfortable donating to this effort. But it's ridiculous to shame people for doing so.

Where do we draw the line between "shame" and "here's why I think donating is a bad idea, I hope you understand my reasoning and agree"? Because I was going for the latter.