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Norway/Japan catching whales

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phie

Member
Seriously, I can´t understand why Norway and Japan has to break the international law, that forbids catching of whales. This is, with no doubt, the ultimate form of animal cruelty. I´m not a vegetarian or anything like that, but this is simply to much.

Every other country that used to catch whales (including USA, Canada, Scotland and Russia) follows the rules, but these two countries refuse to. I hate them for doing that!

Here´s a recent movie that shows what it´s all about. Press the play-button below the picture of the boat.
 

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
Grainy footage, but going by the narration alone, that was pretty horrendous. If this is common during a whale hunt, I can understand why hunting them was banned. Horrible, and sad.
 

moist

Member
phie said:
Every other country that used to catch whales (including USA, Canada, Scotland and Russia) follows the rules, but these two countries refuse to. I hate them for doing that!

Here´s a recent movie that shows what it´s all about. Press the play-button below the picture of the boat.

Alaska Native are allowed to hunt for a certain number of whales every year in the U.S.... granted it's for subsitance and hardly done in a manner like the movie showed but it is still done. And on that note whale tastes about like a fish flavored tire anyway so the rest of the world isn't missing out on much.
 

Deku

Banned
Oh please. Japan has had a long history of doing this.

This is exactly what's wrong with the so-called world community. Nations who think they are morally superior for telling someone else to stop doing something they think is 'wrong' when it costs them absolutely nothing to dream it up because they have no stake in it.

Yeah, Japan is going to get outvoted by everyone else who don't whale because that's just how things developed, most countries in the world have never whaled for food. Imagine the Hindus telling the west to stop slaughtering our cows because its inhumane. I bet most people would balk at it.

Sometimes, when other countries talk about ' imperialism' they actually have a point, and this is one such case. The last thing this planet needs is an elite club of guilt ridden white men running around making international laws so they will feel better.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Deku: Whatever. I suppose that since the Japanese and other near-water populations rely on seafood gives them carte blanche to overfish the oceans as well. Whale populations are not terribly abundant.
 

Deku

Banned
The same reason the US refuses to sign onto the international treaty on landmines. It needs landmines to protect South Korea from being overrun by the very large North Korean army. Of course, whoda guessed the treaty's sponsor is of all country Canada, who share the world's largest unprotected border with the US.

Canada: "let's sponsor a bill on landmines since we don't use it and can do without it and take the moral high ground when the Americans balk at it"

It's not carte blanch for anything, its simply seeing the other side of the issue and respecting it as is. The demands being made on Japan is unfair.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Having Japan respect endangered species protection is unfair?

Well, considering the current American government's attitude towards the environment you may have a point... but at least somebody needs to do the right thing. :p
 

Mugen

Banned
Deku said:
The same reason the US refuses to sign onto the international treaty on landmines. It needs landmines to protect South Korea from being overrun by the very large North Korean army. Of course, whoda guessed the treaty's sponsor is of all country Canada, who share the world's largest unprotected border with the US.

Canada: "let's sponsor a bill on landmines since we don't use it and can do without it and take the moral high ground when the Americans balk at it"

It's not carte blanch for anything, its simply seeing the other side of the issue and respecting it as is. The demands being made on Japan is unfair.

Are you fucking serious?
 
Well Japan claims 'scientific research' and both Norway and Japan feel that International Laws are trying to diminish century old traditions and practices. Also add the fact that they really can't understand the sudden 'pro-environmental' stance some countires claim (Australia and America) when they refuse to sign the Kyoto protocol.
 

Deku

Banned
Hitokage said:
Having Japan respect endangered species protection is unfair?

Well, considering the current American government's attitude towards the environment you may have a point... but at least somebody needs to do the right thing. :p

Strawman Bush?

The US balked at the landmine's treaty under Clinton's watch. It's a good example of countries who would experience no cost in implementing a 'law' telling other countries to do something that would cost them. Then getting all angry when the other countries say no.

It has nothing to do with your politics or my politics about US environmental policy.


'pro-environmental' stance some countires claim (Australia and America) when they refuse to sign the Kyoto protocol.

That's because it costs the US and Australia nothing to support this. Just like it costs Canada, and all of Western Europe nothing to support a law banning landmines because they all live under the American military shield. Actually there was a funny exchange between Sweden and Finland where the Swedes were on their moral pedestal saying how evil landmines are and how the world wouldn't need it. The Fins turned to the Swedes and said blunty [if the soviets invaded] "we are your landmine" hilarious stuff.


Whale meat is not part of the TGIF fridays menu. Replace whale with beef and see how fast the policy changes.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Strawman Bush?

The US balked at the landmine's treaty under Clinton's watch. It's a good example of countries who would experience no cost in implementing a 'law' telling other countries to do something that would cost them. Then getting all angry when the other countries say no.

It has nothing to do with your politics or my politics about US environmental policy.
Ok, you're projecting your own line of thought onto my post. Stop. I was saying it's a valid point to consider the position unfair due to potential hypocrisy since higher ups are trying to dismantle environmental protections. Landmines aren't applicable because environmental issues do not isolate themselves like your Korea example. What Japan does affects the rest of the ocean. So fucking what if they want to hunt until there's nothing left to hunt... it's not their private sea.
 

Deku

Banned
Hitokage said:
Ok, you're projecting your own line of thought onto my post. Stop. I was saying it's a valid point to consider the position unfair due to potential hypocrisy since higher ups are trying to dismantle environmental protections. Landmines aren't applicable because environmental issues do not isolate themselves like your Korea example. What Japan does affects the rest of the ocean. So fucking what if they want to hunt until there's nothing left to hunt... it's not their private sea.

You don't really need to get angry over this. I think the knee jerk reaction now when dealing with anything US related is to point to the Bush administration to hopefully look for common ground. But that's really not my point, not even close. If you want to berate Bush on his environmental policy, do it elsewhere.

The thrust of my argument is that we should not be so quick to take the moral highground on such issues when we are giving up very little to see this through. I keep pointing out an analogy between whales and beef, the landmines treaty that the US rejected.

The point is, if a country's national interest is at stake, action is much harder. Japan, I'm sure knows whales are endangered, but being told by other countries to stop hunting them makes no sense, especially when these 'international bodies' and 'watchdog' groups are stacked against the countries who do hunt whales.

If people are truly serious about this, they'd stop hiding behind international law and work with the countries in question to address their concerns. This isn't happening so Japan doesn't feel it needs to subject itself to a hostile body who have no economic, cultural or social reason to hunt whales and doesn't truly care if we stopped hunting.
 
Deku, fighting the good fight, which is the right for Japan to kill a whole bunch of endangered animals.

Personally, I only agree with killing whales when it involves a giant amount of tnt.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
You don't really need to get angry over this.
Haha, I'm not angry. ;)
I think the knee jerk reaction now when dealing with anything US related is to point to the Bush administration to hopefully look for common ground. But that's really not my point, not even close. If you want to berate Bush on his environmental policy, do it elsewhere.
Uh, you're the one talking about it being unfair how certain countries tell others what to do. I wasn't trying to find common ground as much as make an aside that came to mind on the subject of potentially unfair demands.

At any rate, while it's true that it may not seem right... environmental issues ARE international issues, and you chalking the whole thing up to "an elite club of guilt ridden white men" who just make laws for the hell of it really doesn't impress. Many whale populations are struggling, and if they bottom out I think Japan's interest in whaling has bigger problems. :p
 

Deku

Banned
I don't want to argue anymore. The main point is There is such a thing as tyranny of the majority. The solution isn't being indignant that Japan refuses to budge, its to work with Japan to find a solution that all parties can live with, its called compromise.
 

tetsuoxb

Member
Yeah... deku is right here.

Whale hunting has long been a tradition in Japanese culture. Mie Prefecture, in particular, has long links with whale hunting.

What phie and hitokage fail to understand is how completely fucked the International Whaling Commission is. They were supposed to develop and vote on a plan to legalize whale hunting for Japan, Norway, etc. as per their charter and the international moritorium. They have not taken the promised action in any ways whatsoever.

The facts are that whale populations have rebounded, and then some. It is not an environmental issue, but a political one.

BTW: I had mink whale filet a couple of months ago. Amazingly great beef taste. I hope all this crap gets straightened around, the IWC gets off its ass in regards to its responsibilities, and I can get me some Mink or Humpback whale filets at a decent price.
 

Jeffahn

Member
Whales are not domestic/farm animals and the fact remains that they there is no easy way to kill them. They are also an essential part of marine ecosystems and should be protected. There is no doubt that all whale species were headed to toward extinction back in the 80's. I don't think that there are any whales indigenous to Japanese waters and this is why it, as with most environmental issues, needs to be decided internationally. Japan, Norway and a few others I think, have been working very hard politically to pressure other counties to support them. Financial threats have been made and economic incentives offered.

There's no real economic reason for Japan et al to persue this and it's really just about them feeling dictated to. The Spanish would say the same same about bull fighting, but they have changed certain practices and there is constant pressure for them to give to it up.

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Zaptruder

Banned
tetsuoxb said:
Yeah... deku is right here.

Whale hunting has long been a tradition in Japanese culture. Mie Prefecture, in particular, has long links with whale hunting.

What phie and hitokage fail to understand is how completely fucked the International Whaling Commission is. They were supposed to develop and vote on a plan to legalize whale hunting for Japan, Norway, etc. as per their charter and the international moritorium. They have not taken the promised action in any ways whatsoever.

The facts are that whale populations have rebounded, and then some. It is not an environmental issue, but a political one.

BTW: I had mink whale filet a couple of months ago. Amazingly great beef taste. I hope all this crap gets straightened around, the IWC gets off its ass in regards to its responsibilities, and I can get me some Mink or Humpback whale filets at a decent price.

To paraphrase...

"blah blah blah, I like whale, gimme more I don't care!"
 

Jeffahn

Member
Here's a BBC article I just read:

Japan pushes whale meat revival
The BBC's Jonathan Head

By Jonathan Head
BBC Tokyo correspondent

Next week is the final week of the International Whaling Commission's annual conference, and, as in previous years, Japan will be applying strong diplomatic pressure to ease the ban on commercial whaling, and expand the species it is currently allowed to hunt for scientific purposes.


A whale's tail

Q&A: IWC meeting
Schoolchildren in the western coastal district of Wakayama are now being offered an unusual addition to their lunch menus. Whale.

The Wakayama education board is supplying whale meat to around 280 schools, to try to promote awareness of the region's whaling traditions.

"We've been practising whaling since the beginning of the 17th Century," Tetsuji Sawada, a local education official told the BBC, "but the tradition is dying out."

To make the dish more appetising, the whale is being fried in breadcrumbs, or minced into burgers.

The board had to lobby the government to bring down the price to keep it within their budget.

'Scientific experiment'

All of the whale meat sold in Japan comes from the 400 whales or so that Japan kills every year for "scientific purposes".

The Wakayama initiative underscores an awkward problem confronting the whaling lobby here.

For all of Japan's success in winning support from other countries for its campaign to ease the restrictions on whaling - especially smaller countries which receive Japanese aid - the Japanese people are losing interest.

Whale meat is only served in a few specialist restaurants, and occasionally appears on supermarket shelves. Younger people almost never eat it.

So why does Japan exert so much diplomatic effort on this issue?

The official line is that whaling is an integral part of Japanese culture, a practice dating back hundreds of years.


How would they feel if we told Americans they couldn't hunt deer, or if we told Australians to stop hunting kangaroos?
Hideki Moronuki
Fisheries Agency
That isn't quite true. A few coastal communities, like Wakayama, have been hunting whales for centuries, traditionally with hand-held harpoons.

But the rest of Japan only became familiar with eating whale during the 20th Century, as modern ships with harpoon-guns became available.

Whale meat was especially widespread in the difficult years after the Second World War, when it was seen as a cheap source of protein.

But as incomes rose, people switched to imported beef, or fish like tuna and salmon. With such an abundance of high-quality protein available these days, few Japanese see the point in eating whale, which doesn't taste that special.

There are other reasons for Japan's determined campaign.

"If the current ban on hunting whales is allowed to become permanent," says Hideki Moronuki, at the Fisheries Agency, the government department leading the campaign, "activists may direct their efforts to restricting other types of fishing."

As Japan consumes more fish than any other nation, it worries about possible curbs on its fishing activities in open seas for species like tuna.

Outraged

Officials also like to claim that whales damage fish stocks because of the quantities they eat, although this is largely dismissed by scientists in the rest of the world.

But perhaps the biggest factor is resentment of being told by other countries what Japan can and cannot do.

"Why do people in the west make such a big deal about our very limited hunting of whales?" asks Hideki Moronuki.

"How would they feel if we told Americans they couldn't hunt deer, or if we told Australians to stop hunting kangaroos?"

He argues that Japan has always relied on the sea for its food - pretty much everything that moves in salt water can be found on sale in Tokyo's famous Tsukiji fish market - so why single out whales for exemption, provided they are hunted sustainably, like every other fish?

Japanese family eating food made from whale meat, May 2005
For many Japanese, whale meat is considered a delicacy
The counter-argument by conservationists is that whale populations are still too vulnerable for any hunting to be sustainable.

They are outraged by Japan's plan to start killing a few humpback whales as part of its "scientific" cull.

At the moment that cull includes mainly smaller minke whales.

The World Wildilfe Fund has described the scientific research carried out by Japan on the whales it kills "a sham".

It says it is possible to get information about the whales' diet and health from skin samples, without killing them.

"Japan's whaling programme is about business and politics, but not sound science," says the WWF.

Other activists agree. John Frizell, an anti-whaling campaigner at Greenpeace, believes much of the impetus behind Japan's efforts to re-start commercial whaling comes from bureaucrats within the Fisheries Agency, who fear losing influence or even their jobs if the issue dies away.

Some activists suspect the pro-whaling campaign is being driven by nationalists within the government, who see it as an opportunity for Japan to be seen to be standing up to pressure from other developed countries.

"As long as officials present the issue as one of Japan being bullied by the rest of the world", says John Frizell, "they can probably keep the Japanese public behind them."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4106688.stm

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Syringe

Member
It is never right for any nation to torture animals like this when it isn´t necessary. I have no problems with hunting, but this is just plain horrible. So what if Japan has been doing this for 100 or 1000 years. It is still wrong. People used to burn so called witches in 18 century, but that doesn´t mean we should do that today.

It has nothing to do with USA either. The point is, all countries (even those who has at least as long tradition of whale ctaching as Japan) follows international law. Norway and Japan don´t. They do a completely unnecessary thing that is tremendously brutal - for no good.
 
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