Support NeoGAF

[Sho_Nuff82]

So is kingdom hearts done for ?

The handheld games have probably all made money, but Square has certainly screwed over the mainline, multi-million selling console series by delaying KH3 until after Versus, and delaying Versus until after whatever the fuck it is they're doing with FFXIII.

Anytime a popular game misses a console generation it's a bad thing. Putting 4 spinoffs all on different consoles with their own self-contained stories probably didn't do them any favors either.

 

[H_Prestige]

So is kingdom hearts done for ?

Yes

 

[airmangataosenai]

Damn, PSP version outsold 3DS KH even here, and that's without high sales in Japan to make up the difference. The game turned into a mega bomba. 3DS in general is close to being out of options in the west, there's not much wiggle room on the price left and the only big game Nintendo has left is Pokemon. Obviously it won't be a total failure, but I'd say that it'll be "dead" the same way the Gamecube was in another 2 years should things continue as they have been.

 

[Mario007]

Yes

Not at all. This is simple a not so good KH game that was clearly rushed. Once KH3 comes to consoles expect people to be all over that shit.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

So is kingdom hearts done for ?

It did over 200k and has historically shown legs on Nintendo platforms. So no, probably not. I really don't know where you'd get this idea from.

Edit: Wow, some of you are...special.

 

[Mpl90]

Damn, PSP version outsold 3DS KH even here, and that's without high sales in Japan to make up the difference. The game turned into a mega bomba. 3DS in general is close to being out of options in the west, there's not much wiggle room on the price left and the only big game Nintendo has left is Pokemon. Obviously it won't be a total failure, but I'd say that it'll be "dead" the same way the Gamecube was in another 2 years should things continue as they have been.

No, just no.

 

[spons]

Yeah, let's not count the console that has sold the most software this gen. You sure did prove your point this time!

The Wii has flooded the market with shovelware, makes consumers believe gaming is something it isn't: simplistic, without challenge, a severe lack of attention in artstyle and without proper presentation in both graphics and sound. If anything this has made the consumer base less interested in videogames with all the crap being around.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

The handheld games have probably all made money, but Square has certainly screwed over the mainline, multi-million selling console series by delaying KH3 until after Versus, and delaying Versus until after whatever the fuck it is they're doing with FFXIII.

Anytime a popular game misses a console generation it's a bad thing. Putting 4 spinoffs all on different consoles with their own self-contained stories probably didn't do them any favors either.

Yeah I agree. KH3 will surely be success when it eventually comes out but I think it would have been bigger if it was released this gen. Old fans are growing out of the series and new ones have really hard time getting in. At least SE has recognized this and talked about it. They really need to get a good HD collection out, Versus out and really focus on KH3. I won't be surprised if it wont get to kh2 numbers.

 

[Kusagari]

Damn, PSP version outsold 3DS KH even here, and that's without high sales in Japan to make up the difference. The game turned into a mega bomba. 3DS in general is close to being out of options in the west, there's not much wiggle room on the price left and the only big game Nintendo has left is Pokemon. Obviously it won't be a total failure, but I'd say that it'll be "dead" the same way the Gamecube was in another 2 years should things continue as they have been.

Did you seriously just say the 3DS will be as dead as the Gamecube? The 3DS is already over 5 million in the US and it's still being handicapped by the DS selling over 100k a month. Once the DS is completely fazed out, all those people still buying DS's will move over.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

The Wii has flooded the market with shovelware, makes consumers believe gaming is something it isn't: simplistic, without challenge, a severe lack of attention in artstyle and without proper presentation in both graphics and sound. If anything this has made the consumer base less interested in videogames with all the crap being around.

I thought we stopped doing the shovelware argument when it went from Nintendo getting it to Apple.

 

[airmangataosenai]

No, just no.

It probably is, at least in the west. These kinds of results are pretty dire when you consider just how big of a push Nintendo made for August: Bundles with a huge brand attached, new hardware models/colors, and bringing out their biggest brand. This was a kitchen sink strategy and it didn't even get them ahead of the PS3 in a month where no major exclusives were released for it. It should be fine for this holiday but after that, who knows.

Someone will compare it to the Vita but comparing one failure to an utter disaster doesn't really help your case.

 

[watershed]

Damn, PSP version outsold 3DS KH even here, and that's without high sales in Japan to make up the difference. The game turned into a mega bomba. 3DS in general is close to being out of options in the west, there's not much wiggle room on the price left and the only big game Nintendo has left is Pokemon. Obviously it won't be a total failure, but I'd say that it'll be "dead" the same way the Gamecube was in another 2 years should things continue as they have been.

Nintendo still has a lot of bullets to fire for the 3ds including Professor Layton later this year, a new art academy, Animal Crossing, Pokemon, and a slew of Japanese 3ds games that could be localized in the future. I don't see a gamecube level "dead" being in the cards at all.

Edit: also if we are talking software sales KH is off to a good start at above 200k and NSMB2 did roughly the same as the ds game in less time. Neither should be construed as dire.

 

[Magicpaint]

Damn, PSP version outsold 3DS KH even here, and that's without high sales in Japan to make up the difference. The game turned into a mega bomba. 3DS in general is close to being out of options in the west, there's not much wiggle room on the price left and the only big game Nintendo has left is Pokemon. Obviously it won't be a total failure, but I'd say that it'll be "dead" the same way the Gamecube was in another 2 years should things continue as they have been.

So much wrong in this post, I don't even know where to begin. Maybe if were talking about the Vita, then it'd make a looooooot more sense.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

Damn, PSP version outsold 3DS KH even here, and that's without high sales in Japan to make up the difference. The game turned into a mega bomba. 3DS in general is close to being out of options in the west, there's not much wiggle room on the price left and the only big game Nintendo has left is Pokemon. Obviously it won't be a total failure, but I'd say that it'll be "dead" the same way the Gamecube was in another 2 years should things continue as they have been.

lol, as predictable, insane and wrong as usual. Project Diva f failing must have sent you over the edge.

 

[Mpl90]

Nintendo still has a lot of bullets to fire for the 3ds including Professor Layton later this year, a new art academy, Animal Crossing, Pokemon, and a slew of Japanese 3ds games that could be localized in the future. I don't see a gamecube level "dead" being in the cards at all.

Edit: also if we are talking software sales KH is off to a good start at above 200k and NSMB2 did roughly the same as the ds game in less time. Neither should be construed as dire.

Half time ( NSMB had 14 days, while NSMB2 had 7).

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

Half time ( NSMB had 14 days, while NSMB2 had 7).

I thought NSMB2 had 5 days going by the Nintendo PR?

 

[Mario007]

lol, as predictable, insane and wrong as usual. Project Diva f failing must have sent you over the edge.

While his prediction that 3DS will be dead is completely wrong it does not justify you to be equally as wrong with Project Diva f and say that it is 'failing'.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

While his prediction that 3DS will be dead is completely wrong it does not justify you to be equally as wrong with Project Diva f and say that it is 'failing'.

It's not going to hit expectations, evidently to such a degree there won't be a sequel. Maybe PS3 version can save the franchise next year.

He was dead wrong on KH3D too, it matched BBS launch sales and is pretty much guaranteed better legs. Will most likely still outperform BBS worldwide, even though it sold half as much in Japan.

 

[Mpl90]

I thought NSMB2 had 5 days going by the Nintendo PR?

Out on 19th, datas till 25th = 7 days. NSMB2 did basically as well as NSMB in half time. Sincerly, I don't know why they said it was out for 5 days XD

 

[Magicpaint]

While his prediction that 3DS will be dead is completely wrong it does not justify you to be equally as wrong with Project Diva f and say that it is 'failing'.

Agreed. There's no way Project Diva f can be construed as a 'failure'. Come guys, enough with the crazies.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

Agreed. There's no way Project Diva f can be construed as a 'failure'. Come guys, enough with the crazies.

Tell that to Sega.

 

[test_account]

It's not going to hit expectations, evidently to such a degree there won't be a sequel. Maybe PS3 version can save the franchise next year.

This just means that they will make a new game instead of a sequel Seriously though, i think what was said about this is just "buy it now if you want a sequel". It is not a failure even if they expected more. ~170k after 4 days, the franchise is still very popular, they wont abandon it. Could reach 250k as well over time.

 

[Kusagari]

Miku sold in line with past entries of the franchise on the flailing Vita.

I have no idea what Sega was smoking if their expectations weren't met.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

This just means that they will make a new game instead of a sequel Seriously though, i think what was said about this is just "buy it now if you want a sequel". It is not a failure even if they expected more. ~170k after 4 days, the franchise is still very popular, they wont abandon it. Could reach 250k as well over time.

They won't abandon the franchise, just the franchise on Vita. Get ready for Project Diva 3(DS)...

 

[Magicpaint]

Tell that to Sega.

Well SEGA are the crazy ones then. I'd say that's probably just cheap PR junk to get more people to buy the game.

 

[test_account]

They won't abandon the franchise, just the franchise on Vita. Get ready for Project Diva 3(DS)...

They said nothing about platform. The problem was that the developement budget was too high. This simply means that the next game that they will have less developement time (or at least less expences) on it. It could come out on any platform.

 

[jman2050]

They won't abandon the franchise, just the franchise on Vita. Get ready for Project Diva 3(DS)...

You mean Project Diva (PS)3, right?

 

[Taurus]

The Wii has flooded the market with shovelware, makes consumers believe gaming is something it isn't: simplistic, without challenge, a severe lack of attention in artstyle and without proper presentation in both graphics and sound. If anything this has made the consumer base less interested in videogames with all the crap being around.

Yeah, because PS2 and PS1 were not flooded with shovelware, sure.

And this doesn't even have anything to do with the fact that Wii has sold the most software this gen. Sure, there's shitloads of shovelware, but the best-selling games are all very good games like NSMBW, Mario Kart Wii etc.

 

[Mario007]

It's not going to hit expectations, evidently to such a degree there won't be a sequel. Maybe PS3 version can save the franchise next year.

He was dead wrong on KH3D too, it matched BBS launch sales and is pretty much guaranteed better legs. Will most likely still outperform BBS worldwide, even though it sold half as much in Japan.

We haven't even gotten a sell-through. According to retail sources the game had a 50-60% sell-through on the opening day.

DDD doing only as good as BBS is a disgrace though. PSP was dead when BBS released and pretty much no one bought games for the system outside of Japan. So the figure is certainly pretty bad, especially given Japanese sales. The quality of the game compared to BBS is also one of the reasons for this. However 3DS was the last platform where KH could go to keep reusing those PS2 assets and it failed to settle on this platform. Expect a console release to be the best thing for the franchise.

Oh and if we can make up stuff regarding sales I can just as easily say that Miku will have legs on Vita too (which Miku games have tended to do in the past, as opposed to KH games).

 

[MechaX]

So is kingdom hearts done for ?

Not exactly. I'm betting that DDD will most likely have way better legs than BBS. Yeah, it's definitely a far cry from what KH used to do, but they kinda screwed the pooch on that one by not only spreading the series between multiple platforms over the generation, but also missing the chance to strike while the iron's hot for a KH3 by waiting so long that the KH1/KH2 fanbase have effectively aged (probably beyond the point of caring about the franchise as much as they did years ago).

 

[Kyou]

Miku sold in line with past entries of the franchise on the flailing Vita.

I have no idea what Sega was smoking if their expectations weren't met.

Also "The first one was so expensive to make, let's not sequelize that engine" is just crazy talk

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

You mean Project Diva (PS)3, right?

I meant Project Diva (PS)3(DS). EXTroopers is the future.

 

[pieatorium]

We haven't even gotten a sell-through.

http://andriasang.com/con2mb/hatsune_miku_f_sales/

Media Create reports a high 74.63% sell-through for the game.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

We haven't even gotten a sell-through. According to retail sources the game had a 50-60% sell-through on the opening day.

We have sales figures, and given historical sales patterns (both for the Diva series and Vita games in general) it's not going to reach the 250k boxed copies Sega projected. On top of that we have company reps touching on the dissapointing sales specifically. Seems pretty clear cut imo.

DDD doing only as good as BBS is a disgrace though. PSP was dead when BBS released and pretty much no one bought games for the system outside of Japan. So the figure is certainly pretty bad, especially given Japanese sales. The quality of the game compared to BBS is also one of the reasons for this. However 3DS was the last platform where KH could go to keep reusing those PS2 assets and it failed to settle on this platform. Expect a console release to be the best thing for the franchise.

Oh and if we can make up stuff regarding sales I can just as easily say that Miku will have legs on Vita too (which Miku games have tended to do in the past, as opposed to KH games).

Days on DS did around the same too upfront (201k), but unlike BBS it went on to more than quadruple those figures and sell over 900k in the US. There's a history of this franchise performing well over the long haul on Nintendo handhelds, which is why there's some reasonable (ie: not made up) expectation KH3D will leg it well past BBS. All the first month shows is that the diehards came back again.

 

[Father_Brain]

High sell-through, on its own, only means that retailers did a good job predicting demand for a title. It doesn't mean that the publisher was satisfied with how many units they sold to retailers, though it often does.

It's too early to say with certainty just how Sega will handle the franchise, but considering that:

a) PDf has a significantly higher budget than the PSP entries, and
b) PDf began development before Vita launched, and was (like nearly all third-party titles that began development pre-launch) presumably greenlit and budgeted without knowledge of just how poorly Vita would sell

...I don't think it's that hard to see why they might be disappointed with its performance.

 

[Mario007]

http://andriasang.com/con2mb/hatsune_miku_f_sales/

Well that's actually pretty good.

We have sales figures, and given historical sales patterns (both for the Diva series and Vita games in general) it's not going to reach the 250k boxed copies Sega projected. On top of that we have company reps touching on the dissapointing sales specifically. Seems pretty clear cut imo.



Days on DS did around the same too upfront (201k), but unlike BBS it went on to more than quadruple those figures and sell over 900k in the US. There's a history of this franchise performing well over the long haul on Nintendo handhelds, which is why there's some reasonable (ie: not made up) expectation KH3D will leg it well past BBS. All the first month shows is that the diehards came back again.

Given the trends of Miku games it'll reach 250k. With games like Miku or MH you don't need a huge install base because the fans buy into the system for that game.

Why not give the example of Re Coded since that's the more recent of the two? Days was the first day after KH2 when DS was in its prime.

Also long legs for games are usually present when the game is good. Many KH fans have stated that the game is 'fun' but nowhere near what was expected after BBS. This is a simple quality argument. We only have to look at the sales in Japan, where its overall total number of sales is still lower than BBS by quite some amount.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

How come they've taken so long to release a main line sequel, KH3? I'm not familiar with the franchise but I know the two mainline games on PS2 sold really well and were super popular judging by all the fanfic videos on youtube. This was years and years ago. What have they been doing? These KH spin-offs with weird titles like kh365 are confusing and might have hurt the brand?

 

[Mario007]

How come they've taken so long to release a main line sequel, KH3? I'm not familiar with the franchise but I know the two mainline games on PS2 sold really well and were super popular judging by all the fanfic videos on youtube. This was years and years ago. What have they been doing? These KH spin-offs with weird titles like kh365 are confusing and might have hurt the brand?

The team that made the original KH games is working on Versus (ie working on any project Square needs to save before working on Versus).

The DS games were outsourced to h.a.n.d and BBS and DDD (the mainline games) were made by a Square team in Osaka. The team is, presumably, too small for HD console games and with PSP and 3DS the team could reuse a lot of PS2 era assets.

 

[Zekra Dezivad]

Not exactly. I'm betting that DDD will most likely have way better legs than BBS. Yeah, it's definitely a far cry from what KH used to do, but they kinda screwed the pooch on that one by not only spreading the series between multiple platforms over the generation, but also missing the chance to strike while the iron's hot for a KH3 by waiting so long that the KH1/KH2 fanbase have effectively aged (probably beyond the point of caring about the franchise as much as they did years ago).

Well, BBS came out when PSP was already dead and I don't think Square was happy with the sales numbers.

 

[test_account]

We have sales figures, and given historical sales patterns (both for the Diva series and Vita games in general) it's not going to reach the 250k boxed copies Sega projected. On top of that we have company reps touching on the dissapointing sales specifically. Seems pretty clear cut imo.

The boxed copies forecast also includes digital downloads, i'm 99.9% sure of it. Sega listed for example that Premier Manager 2012 sold 710k, and this game was only listed under "package goods". I cant imagine that a PC game in this day and age sells this much for a physical copy (the game excist for PSP too, but i dont think that sold a lot). They didnt list this game under "digital games", which they should have done if they wanted to distinct physical and downloadable games from eachother.

 

[Mario007]

Well, BBS came out when PSP was already dead and I don't think Square was happy with the sales numbers.

I doubt they're terribly pleased about DDD unless Nintendo was helping/paying for the development (or the marketing in Europe). I mean DDD did as well in Japan as BBS Final Mix and that's saying something.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

Given the trends of Miku games it'll reach 250k. With games like Miku or MH you don't need a huge install base because the fans buy into the system for that game.

The dedicated fans buy 1st week, as do the majority of Miku fans. Outside the first game, Project Diva has had modest legs. PDf can maybe still leg it to 250k, but the dropoff Vita games tend to have makes that very much questionable. We'll see I guess.

Why not give the example of Re Coded since that's the more recent of the two? Days was the first day after KH2 when DS was in its prime.

Well, I don't have Re: Coded sales. I'd love to see them (and Re: Com sales) too.

And late 2009 was DS in it's prime? I dunno, that seems more to me when the software decline/mainstream R4 revolution really started?

Also long legs for games are usually present when the game is good. Many KH fans have stated that the game is 'fun' but nowhere near what was expected after BBS. This is a simple quality argument. We only have to look at the sales in Japan, where its overall total number of sales is still lower than BBS by quite some amount.

days vs BBS sort of shoots down your quality argument, given the former tripled sales of the latter in the US. As do sales patterns in general, I think platform userbase/audience/viability are way more significant in this case. And no, "quality" has little to do with Japanese sales either, I'm really not sure where you really want to go with a sales = quality argument?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I doubt they're terribly pleased about DDD unless Nintendo was helping/paying for the development (or the marketing in Europe). I mean DDD did as well in Japan as BBS Final Mix and that's saying something.

I doubt the budgets are comparable.

DDD looks and feels rather small compared to BbS.

 

[Mario007]

The dedicated fans buy 1st week, as do the majority of Miku fans. Outside the first game, Project Diva has had modest legs. PDf can maybe still leg it to 250k, but the dropoff Vita games tend to have makes that very much questionable. We'll see I guess.

I was drawing more comparison with MH jump on 3DS. It continued to sell well even after the first week as the fanbase bought into the new platform. I think next Wednesday will probably say a lot about Miku on Vita, though.

Well, I don't have Re: Coded sales. I'd love to see them (and Re: Com sales) too.

And late 2009 was DS in it's prime? I dunno, that seems more to me when the software decline/mainstream R4 revolution really started?

I'd say so. DS was an extremely successful system that had its zenith going on for ages. The user install base and the software attach rate on DS was great even in 2009.

days vs BBS sort of shoots down your quality argument, given the former tripled sales of the latter in the US. As do sales patterns in general, I think platform userbase/audience/viability are way more significant in this case. And no, "quality" has little to do with Japanese sales either, I'm really not sure where you really want to go with a sales = quality argument?

My argument may be a bit naive, but I think that games have long legs thanks to positive word of mouth. So the better the game the better the word of mouth.

I doubt the budgets are comparable.

DDD looks and feels rather small compared to BbS.

They take about the same time to complete. Although I agree the polish of BBS is nowhere to be seen in DDD.

 

[pixelbox]

Yeah, let's not count the console that has sold the most software this gen. You sure did prove your point this time!

OK, so how much did Mario kart/SMG sell compared to wii fit and wii sports? Better yet, how much did The conduit and what was it...Red steel sell compared to those games? Do you think it's healthy to have a userbase of 80 million but third party can't crack 1? Or that they can't sell a 10th of what 1st party does? Nintendo's 1st party sells does nothing for an industry of diversity.

 

[Chris1964]

I mean DDD did as well in Japan as BBS Final Mix and that's saying something.

It's unbelievable with so many many sources for Japanese data available false numbers keep being posted.

 

[Mario007]

It's unbelievable with so many many sources for Japanese data available false numbers keep being posted.

I was going off my memory from Media Create. BBS FM did around 280k if I remember correctly and thats about the same same as DDD.

 

[Chris1964]

I was going off my memory from Media Create. BBS FM did around 280k if I remember correctly and thats about the same same as DDD.

You mean 280K/2 and DDD is almost 350K.

 

[airmangataosenai]

lol, as predictable, insane and wrong as usual. Project Diva f failing must have sent you over the edge.

"Failing", lol. I predicted 180k retail (Not counting bundles and digital, and what Extend did) and it did 160k. If anything I was one of the more accurate guesses on that game's performance considering that almost nobody predicted over 140k FW. Nice try though.

 

[Mario007]

You mean 280K/2 and DDD is almost 350K.

Really? I was pretty sure BBS did 280. Sorry for that mistake.