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[Mega Man's Electric Sheep]

But that's not always true when you go to buy the movie. Some come out full priced at $20, 25, 35, and some movies like Akira come out even more. The 3d versions of movies also cost more than the regular versions. You can't really argue this, it exists.

but none of that has anything to do with the budget of the movie, which is what was being discussed. That things with high budgets cost more for consumers. I guarantee the 3D version of Madagasgar 3 on blu-ray is not significantly different in price than Avengers 3D, but their budgets sure are.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

I recognize the argument but personally do not believe that new hardware will automatically fix the woes that ail the console sector.

I doubt that new generation would fix this, so i agree. My concern is that a new generation might pick up more sales but not as much as the highs of previous generations.

Release a consoles when the console markers are not ready and face heavy losses ?

vs

Earn as much profit as they can selling at a high price ? and release the consoles when the time is right.


The sales of consoles in the first 3 months were really good tbh, and just a few months of really low sales doesnt mean they should release rush the next gen consoles when its not ready.

Europe sales are also higher then NA in the first 3 months

Rushing it and having a disaster will evenutally kill the device unlike previous gen.

Rather i think both MS and Sony will expiramenting with subscription based model and other DD stuffs etc

So, the console manufacturers should just milk this generation dry on the cost of people losing interest in console gaming and shrinking console markets?

You hit when the iron is hot. A new generation can´t automatically fix the downturn in sales. Especially with so much competition for people´s spare time.

 

[Opiate]

As with all things in the world with increased budgets the price to consumers gets higher. That is also another natural order of things. That said, I understand and fully agree with you.

No, it isn't the "natural order" -- that is precisely what I am suggesting. I mean, companies can slap a higher price on it to try and cover rising costs, but that doesn't mean consumers will respond or buy it.

There are many situations where production costs rise, and prices don't. Some costs are absorbed, sticky prices are a real phenomenon, and of course, production models like Free to Play exist. Further, budgets do not actually have to increase, as the DS showed us, and iOS/facebook games are reminding us over and over again -- lower budget games can be successful.

 

[Count Dookkake]

but none of that has anything to do with the budget of the movie, which is what was being discussed. That things with high budgets cost more for consumers. I guarantee the 3D version of Madagasgar 3 on blu-ray is not significantly different in price than Avengers 3D, but their budgets sure are.

It's like they are doing this on purpose, because there is no way one can look at movies and come to that conclusion.

 

[Kevtones]

Glad Dragon's Dogma placed. Wonderful game.

 

[Synless]

No, it isn't the "natural order" -- that is precisely what I am suggesting. I mean, companies can slap a higher price on it to try and cover rising costs, but that doesn't mean consumers will respond or buy it.

There are many situations where production costs rise, and prices don't. Some costs are absorbed, sticky prices are a real phenomenon, and of course, production models like Free to Play exist. Further, budgets do not actually have to increase, as the DS showed us, and iOS/facebook games are reminding us over and over again -- lower budget games can be successful.

As I said, I agree with you. I was just listing some examples based on what I see happening.

Yeah, and there is little-to-no correlation between the film's budget and the cost of it on home formats.

I can argue this because I am right. Feel free to support your position with evidence.

Are you suggesting that AKIRA was more expensive to make than the average Hollywood film? Pardon me, but lol.

That's not what I was suggesting at all, I was merely saying there has been a price increase in movies since they moved to bluray. I don't think you are understanding the original argument. Games are now $60 standard regardless of budget when they used to be $50. Handheld games are now $40 standard from $30. Movies have also increased since production values have gone up across the board to around $30-35 from $20-25 they used to be despite the differences of budget. Regardless a higher budget is always going to be the higher priced tier product.

 

[jonno394]

Max deserved so much better.

 

[cw_sasuke]

Isn't DD one of Capcoms most expensive titles ever ? They must be pissed, it sold less than MH Tri on two plattforms.

Mad Paynes underperformed, but this was expected I shook my head when I read some prediction where it was to sell as much as RDR or LA Noire.

 

[Count Dookkake]

That's not what I was suggesting at all, I was merely saying there has been a price increase in movies since they moved to bluray. I don't think you are understanding the original argument. Games are now $60 standard regardless of budget when they used to be $50. Handheld games are now $40 standard from $30. Movies have also increased since production values have gone up across the board to around $30-35 from $20-25 they used to be despite the differences of budget. Regardless a higher budget is always going to be the higher priced tier product.

I brought up movies, so I defined that part of the conversation. You can't poke holes in an argument that you are changing on my behalf.

I merely pointed out what a sloppy claim you guys had made by speaking in absolutes about "the natural order" or whatever.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Isn't DD one of Capcoms most expensive titles ever ? They must be pissed, it sold less than MH Tri on two plattforms.

Eh, it probably won't break even, but it's a new IP at the tail end of a generation and makes a good base for sequels.

The much cheaper RE:ORC probably helps to make up for it.

 

[RukusProvider]

How many more years do we have in PS3's 10 year life?

In the current markets, about 1 more until the well is dry. They'll pimp it out in emerging market as part of the 10year plan.

 

[Cipherr]

Excellent month! Look at all dat RMAH on the charts

 

[Nirolak]

Eh, it probably won't break even, but it's a new IP at the tail end of a generation and makes a good base for sequels.

The much cheaper RE:ORC probably helps to make up for it.

I fail to see how 5 digit sales can possibly be considered good for a game like this, even in terms of looking at sequel potential.

I mean, if we want to just like bundle the budget of DD and DD2 together as a really big push for an open world game, maybe I could see it, but this is really rough.

Dante's Inferno did like 4-5 times as much in its opening month.

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

Everyone at Neogaf should go out and buy some agreed-upon, overlooked classic and see if we can get it into the NPD in June.

That'll save video games.

 

[Synless]

I brought up movies, so I defined that part of the conversation. You can't poke holes in an argument that you are changing on my behalf.

I merely pointed out what a sloppy claim you guys had made by speaking in absolutes about "the natural order" or whatever.

I'm not poking holes at all, higher budgets caused movies to raise in price. Ticket prices have raised, retail prices have raised. I don't get how you don't see that. Or we're you always buying movies at the prices they are now? I was never arguing things on a case by case basis, but as a whole. Lower budget movies and games are just piggybacking on the more expensive standard pricing set by bigger movies/games.

You and I can talk about this in PM if we want to continue. I don't want to fill up this thread any further.

Where is your evidence? All You need to do is look at any retail store to see my evidence.

But in case you need it, here you go:

http://m.cbsnews.com/searchsynopsis.rbml?query=Will+movie+goers+put+up+with+higher+prices%3F&catid=6335146&nbActionFormEncoding=UTF-8

http://m.hollywoodreporter.com/news/movie-ticket-prices-increase-2011-288569

 

[Count Dookkake]

I'm not poking holes at all, higher budgets caused movies to raise in price. Ticket prices have raised, retail prices have raised. I don't get how you don't see that. Or we're you always buying movies at the prices they are now? I was never arguing things on a case by case basis, but as a whole. Lower budget movies and games are just piggybacking on the more expensive standard pricing set by bigger movies/games.

You keep making assertions without any supporting evidence.

You don't have to respond any further on this line.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Maybe gaming was a fad. Perhaps all the people who flocked to it over the last 5 years or so have moved on to things like the iPad and now enjoy spending their time editing photos, interacting on Facebook and mucking around with whatever app is popular at the time.

I can see this being a distinct possibility.

How many more years do we have in PS3's 10 year life?

Random aside: The original PlayStation was actually in production for 12 years. The PS2 will surpass that (already at 12 years).

The PS3 will have to last until November 2016.

 

[Perfo]

Dragon's Dogma.

Well, at least the Japan numbers were decent to good.

Yes. And probably Dragon's Dogma 2 will be a 3DS title only

 

[StevieP]

Yes. And probably Dragon's Dogma 2 will be a Vita title only

fixed

 

[samus4ever]

NPD day. Seems so anticlimactic the past few months. A new generation is needed and price drops across the board. I'm kind of glad systems are bombing. This generation has gone on way past due and it's showing.

 

[specialguy]

Maybe gaming was a fad. Perhaps all the people who flocked to it over the last 5 years or so have moved on to things like the iPad and now enjoy spending their time editing photos, interacting on Facebook and mucking around with whatever app is popular at the time.

Doesn't make sense though, because console gaming has been solid since 1985 and the NES. That's 27 years...

 

[AniHawk]

NPD day. Seems so anticlimactic the past few months.

i think these numbers were pretty climactic, but not for the reasons people might hope. having the lowest console sales in over a decade despite (or maybe because of) seven systems on the market is a pretty remarkable thing.

 

[Anth0ny]

If this trend continues...

 

[samus4ever]

Doesn't make sense though, because console gaming has been solid since 1985 and the NES. That's 27 years...

I have to agree. Before this gen, console sales have never sold this much. Last gen PS3 outsold everything and Xbox and Gamecube only sold 20 million plus the whole gen. This gen though, consoles have sold higher per system. Wii with 90 plus, Xbox and PS3 with 60 million plus per system. You simply cant compare the 80's when everyone came out with a system. The money made now is not just one games alone, but a wide variety of entertainment options.

i think these numbers were pretty climactic, but not for the reasons people might hope. having the lowest console sales in over a decade despite (or maybe because of) seven systems on the market is a pretty remarkable thing.

I guess I was referring to last year since the Xbox 360 was on fire mostly due to the get a Laptop get a Xbox free. If I remember, they sold near 500k last June or was it another month?

 

[StevieP]

If this trend continues...

You keep asking for "proper" generational leaps in another thread, and people on this very forum shit on a product everytime it doesn't look like Gears or Uncharted (and it happens in *every* new reveal thread that isn't SW1313/Watch Dogs/LOU/etc). What do you think is going to happen?

Budgets have risen every prior generation - history isn't going to buck the trends this time around either if "AAA" gaming stays on the same course. Further consolidation, more risk aversion, higher budgets, more consumer gouging, less consumer rights... these are all the things the majority of the publishers and developers many of you hold dear are proposing. Staying on that course only really has one result, really.

 

[lazybones18]

Any idea on how Kid Icarus did this month?

 

[Goldmund]

You keep asking for "proper" generational leaps in another thread, and people on this very forum shit on a product everytime it doesn't look like Gears or Uncharted (and it happens in *every* new reveal thread that isn't SW1313/Watch Dogs/LOU/etc). What do you think is going to happen?

Budgets have risen every prior generation - history isn't going to buck the trends this time around either if "AAA" gaming stays on the same course. Further consolidation, more risk aversion, higher budgets, more consumer gouging, less consumer rights... these are all the things the majority of the publishers and developers many of you hold dear are proposing. Staying on that course only really has one result, really.

Exponential growth is what we're all about. We go boom and then the lights go out.

 

[sleepykyo]

I expect next gen to focus on ~30-40 franchises that sell 3+ million copies, and everything else is digital.

I am shivering in horror.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

has it been said when it was ever this bad?

ms: 160k
nintendo: ~285k
sony: ~195k

total: roughly 640k systems sold for the month of may. that's including psp, ds, vita, 3ds, ps3, wii, and 360.

in may 2004, there were 548k ps2s, gamecubes, and xboxes sold. that was without the gba (can't find those numbers, but the gba was selling at or higher than ps2 levels at the time).

That is worrisome. Many problems caused by the entire industry in particular the 360/PS3 vs. Wii divide and iOS/social gaming on top of the current economic situation being worse than what it was in prior years. However, how does this compare to a few years ago were we seeing massive growth and generally higher sales than any time in history?

 

[AniHawk]

I am shivering in horror.

well, digital is the future anyway. and that sort of thing has been getting more and more robust as time goes on.

 

[boingball]

Wow, some pretty depressing numbers.

And I love how Sony always points to their great upcoming lineup, never saying anything about the "sales success" of yesterdays great upcoming lineup.

 

[Horse Armour]

Could the poor numbers be due to NPD now tracking Wal Mart rather than just estimating them?

 

[Margalis]

I don't see new hardware doing much. Anecdotally here are the reasons people I know play fewer console games:

1. Price vs other entertainment options

2. Endless rehashes and sequels means there is very little to get excited for

3. Long startup times, forced system updates, splash screens, patches, installs, etc, make the process of actually playing a console game a pain in the ass. You can turn on some other device and be playing a game in 15 seconds.

4. Retailer exclusive pre-order bonuses, DLC, etc, make console games feel anti-consumer.

What is a new generation of hardware going to fix here?

New hardware is fine but what console gaming really needs is a change in attitude. Ironically the emphasis on squeezing money out of consumers and out of other companies is hurting the overall financial health of the industry.

 

[Speevy]

well, digital is the future anyway. and that sort of thing has been getting more and more robust as time goes on.

They still aren't making enough 3D third person games for digital platforms.

 

[Parmenides]

PS360 sales continue to impress. For the first five months of the year, from January through May,PS360 sales drop back to... 2010 levels.


US YTD Hardware Sales (Unit: Million)

 Source: NPD  (Up to Week 21)


           Wii      360      PS3   

2009       2.66     1.38     0.95       
2010       2.03     1.47     1.28       
2011       1.47     1.91     1.41       
2012       0.71     1.46     1.18

Considering that the average price of the HD consoles are close to the PS2 launch price, PS360 sales figures are absolutely mindblowing.The HD twins have still a long way to go in the US market.

As a console generation drags on, US market will go down first, followed by Europe, and then the rest of the world.These are the times for the PS3 to catch up worldwide.

A very acute observation.Japan,Europe and the emerging markets lag behind the US in the adoption of HD consoles,so the PS3 is in the middle of its life cycle.

2014 is starting to look like a long way away if that's when sony or MS plan to release their next console. I don't think either can afford to wait that long and if they do it will cost them dearly next gen.


The UK market has also been performing terribly, is there any reason to believe that Europe is actually doing much better overall than the US?

2014 is starting to look like a long way away if that's when sony or MS plan to release their next console.

Maybe for Microsoft.

The US market is not so big (PS2 has sold 46.5 million units in the US and shipped 155.1 million globally).It's just that the american consumers move faster,so from now they will put more pressure on Microsoft,since the Xbox 360 records almost 55 percent of its sales in the US,while the PS3 generates about 70 percent of its sales outside the US.

Morover, Sony's new management team launched a plan aimed at tripling Game operating income in three-years.What stands out is that Sony is banking on the PS3 and its software sales (over 300 million units shipped over the last couple of years) to be the engine that drives Game profits until the end of the three-year cycle,so its successor should only play a minor role during the fiscal year ending march 31,2015.

The UK market has also been performing terribly, is there any reason to believe that Europe is actually doing much better overall than the US?

Also the PS3 still has a few million units to go and if sales stall WW that won't make it easy to make up a gap like that.

Japan+Europe remains virtually unchanged

Japan- Week 23, 2012

Japan- Week 23, 2011

Japan - Week 23

YTD 2012 --> PS3 588,924

YTD 2011 --> PS3 567,515

 

[robox]

went through the thread trying to figure out what sniper elite was. and this...

I can't be the only one who said, "what the fuck is Sniper Elite v2?" lol

This: http://youtu.be/Dzc_8j4r-ck?hd=1&t=21s

the power of walmart, indeed
poor, poor dragon's dogma, beaten by this

 

[Lich_King]

You doom and gloom people are as crazy as Capcom. You know what people were doing in May? Building new pcs, buying new laptops, upgrading their GPUs to play biggest PC release since 2010 and then also maybe use them to max out Max Payne 3. You know what they were not doing? Buying 7-year old hardware or portables to not play Diablo 3 and play weak version of Max Payne 3 (and first 2 are not even on these consoles) or some JRPG no one even heard about. Putting any game against Diablo 3 was a guaranteed defeat as people only have that much time to play so many games and Diablo 3 doesn't just provide 8 hours of cinematic experience and that's it so you have to go buy another game, it will entertain people for months. Maybe CoD could have beaten it, but that's about it.

 

[madmackem]

I don't see new hardware doing much. Anecdotally here are the reasons people I know play fewer console games:

1. Price vs other entertainment options

2. Endless rehashes and sequels means there is very little to get excited for

3. Long startup times, forced system updates, splash screens, patches, installs, etc, make the process of actually playing a console game a pain in the ass. You can turn on some other device and be playing a game in 15 seconds.

4. Retailer exclusive pre-order bonuses, DLC, etc, make console games feel anti-consumer.

What is a new generation of hardware going to fix here?

New hardware is fine but what console gaming really needs is a change in attitude. Ironically the emphasis on squeezing money out of consumers and out of other companies is hurting the overall financial health of the industry.

With new hardware comes new ip, also faster better sleeker made system ios that new hardware should bring should help with most of point three. Its time for new hardware and big price cuts on this gen, its pretty insane at how high prices still are, for example this far into ps2 life you could go out and pick up the best ps2 model out in the uk and come home with change from £90. Now for the best model of this gen with all the bells and whistles your still looking at close to £300 infact a xbox with a kinet is pretty much at a price level the machine launched at 6 years ago.

 

[mujun]

Doesn't make sense though, because console gaming has been solid since 1985 and the NES. That's 27 years...

The idea goes that "solid" as you put it isn't enough to support HD consoles like it was last gen and even more so 2 or 3 generations ago. Perhaps the bad performance we are seeing now would have hit at the start of this gen (or at least considerably earlier) if it weren't for the "casuals" aka the fad. Now that they have moved on it's becoming clear exactly how tough the industry has become.

Just a theory of course.

 

[Margalis]

With new hardware comes new ip, also faster better sleeker made system ios that new hardware should bring should help with most of point three.

Given that game development costs are going to be even more expensive next gen and that most publishers are doubling down on an all-AAA strategy I find it hard to believe the next gen will bring in new IP the way previous gens have.

As far as stuff like startup times, splash screens, etc, it's less a technology issue than a will issue. The 360 dashboard has gotten slower as the years have gone by - it's not like the hardware is getting worse. Nothing about the hardware forces games to have a separate splash screen for Bink.

There may be some improvements with stuff like background loading of patches but for he most part I don't see technology solving a problem that stems mostly from misplaced priorities.

 

[darkside31337]

PS360 sales continue to impress. For the first five months of the year, from January through May,PS360 sales drop back to... 2010 levels.


US YTD Hardware Sales (Unit: Million)

 Source: NPD  (Up to Week 21)


           Wii      360      PS3   

2009       2.66     1.38     0.95       
2010       2.03     1.47     1.28       
2011       1.47     1.91     1.41       
2012       0.71     1.46     1.18

Considering that the average price of the HD consoles are close to the PS2 launch price, PS360 sales figures are absolutely mindblowing.The HD twins have still a long way to go in the US market.

I thought this post was really interesting. For all the doom and gloom going on in here the real cause for the bottoming out is the fact that the Wii has completely fallen off the cliff.

Should be interesting to see what happens when the Wii U rolls around. It might have been a good idea to attach the Wii name to their new console just a couple years ago but maybe now not so much.

 

[Aostia]

It seems that the home market is facing issues as the portable one, to me, as if the entire VG market could be subject (as it is, I think) to the international economical struggle.
Wii's old success is not subsitute by a big increase of the HD twins, that decrese their own sales as well (-40% for 360 is a lot), and the Wii itself is almost dead, up to now.
Probably a cut price for both PS3 and 360 and the release of important key titles (as Blops2, but also AC3 and RE6) will help a lot during the Xmas period, and we will see if the realease of a brand new home console (probably not so expensive) could help in incresing the home market, at least increasing the very low Wii numbers.

Positive signs come from both 3ds and DS, and I think that the 3ds increase is important, because there was the DSi and XL cut price, so this demonstrate that 3ds is suffering less of the DS competition.
Unfortunately for the portable market, Vita is struggling, probably because of the lack of compelling software mixed with the high price point (compared to the other portable devices).


I'm happy with DDogma debut, also if we don't have real numbers, so it's almost useless to judge, but...

 

[Massa]

To the people that didn't like all the shooters and violence at E3: 5 shooters and 8 M-rated games in the top 10.

 

[darkside31337]

I'm happy with DDogma debut, also if we don't have real numbers, so it's almost useless to judge, but...

You're happy with the game being an utter flop in the US? You monster

We already know it sold 92,000. That is really, really bad.

 

[walking fiend]

I thought this post was really interesting. For all the doom and gloom going on in here the real cause for the bottoming out is the fact that the Wii has completely fallen off the cliff.

Should be interesting to see what happens when the Wii U rolls around. It might have been a good idea to attach the Wii name to their new console just a couple years ago but maybe now not so much.

The problem is that they haven't been able to sustain the lose of the Wii sales.

 

[Mooreberg]

3. Long startup times, forced system updates, splash screens, patches, installs, etc, make the process of actually playing a console game a pain in the ass.

I hope someone in Sony is actually smart enough to make sure some of these PSN+ features are just a regular part of the next system. So much of what gets complained about on podcasts with firmware updates and large patches is taken care of by the automated stuff. The first night I used it last week it updated the firmware, installed a 500+ MB Battlefield 3 patch, a 100+MB Uncharted 3 patch, and synced a bunch of save files while I was alseep.

But yeah, a lot of the other shit you mentioned isn't going away. I expect DLC to be even worse. I'm kind of happy for this console cycle to "ride it out" because it is hard to get excited for the next round of systems unless some dramatic change in perspective occurs.

 

[madmackem]

Given that game development costs are going to be even more expensive next gen and that most publishers are doubling down on an all-AAA strategy I find it hard to believe the next gen will bring in new IP the way previous gens have.

As far as stuff like startup times, splash screens, etc, it's less a technology issue than a will issue. The 360 dashboard has gotten slower as the years have gone by - it's not like the hardware is getting worse. Nothing about the hardware forces games to have a separate splash screen for Bink.

There may be some improvements with stuff like background loading of patches but for he most part I don't see technology solving a problem that stems mostly from misplaced priorities.

Devs wont want to work on new ip this late in the cycle even more so games they see having yearly or so releases. The 360 dash has got slower, because the hardware is being pushed to its limites as they try to upgrade the dash offering more when the hardware simply is running out of juice to support it.

 

[madmackem]

I hope someone in Sony is actually smart enough to make sure some of these PSN+ features are just a regular part of the next system. So much of what gets complained about on podcasts with firmware updates and large patches is taken care of by the automated stuff. The first night I used it last week it updated the firmware, installed a 500+ MB Battlefield 3 patch, a 100+MB Uncharted 3 patch, and synced a bunch of save files while I was alseep.

But yeah, a lot of the other shit you mentioned isn't going away. I expect DLC to be even worse. I'm kind of happy for this console cycle to "ride it out" because it is hard to get excited for the next round of systems unless some dramatic change in perspective occurs.

Yes all of them should be taking that plus feature as the norm. I dont think ive patched my ps3 in months because of plus.

 

[Hero]

I thought this post was really interesting. For all the doom and gloom going on in here the real cause for the bottoming out is the fact that the Wii has completely fallen off the cliff.

Should be interesting to see what happens when the Wii U rolls around. It might have been a good idea to attach the Wii name to their new console just a couple years ago but maybe now not so much.

If anything this just proves how essential and important the Wii was to the industry. For over 4 years the Wii was a record-breaking system that pushed a crazy amount of hardware units. Despite this clear lead even after the initial "Wii is a fad" first year period third parties in large failed to capitalize on the success of the Wii and left a shit ton of money on the table. So now in it's final year with absolutely minimal new software coming out and sales dip down the entire industry is doomed. Microsoft and Sony weren't contributing to growing the market during the explosive first few years and they're failing at selling to new consumers.

I remain skeptical of the Wii U, not as a gamer but as someone who participates in the NPD and Media Create threads to gauge sales of video games. There is a very small, almost impossible chance of Wii U having the same amount of success Wii did. If it fails, the numbers for next year are going to be even worse than this year.

 

[sleepykyo]

well, digital is the future anyway. and that sort of thing has been getting more and more robust as time goes on.

Yeah, but digital on consoles isn't quite the same. For example I have no clue whether any of my psn purchases will work on a ps4 or if I will even have a ps4 as my next system. And that will be an issue next gen as well. It isn't quit as generous where my I bought Sin Episode 1 and installed it on a desktop. I then installed Steam on a 2010 desktop and replayed and so forth.

Or in short, console digital libraries are simply inferior to pc digital libraries.