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[MightyHedgehog]

console rts developers need to look to madden and pikmin, not starcraft.

This has been my view for a while now. For an RTS to really take off well on a controller, the game has to be built around the control device and not concepts of control that really only well apply to a mouse and keyboard. Too bad about Massive Entertainment cancelling World in Conflict for consoles...if they're wise, I think its control scheme (an upgraded form of Ground Control's excellent camera-based view) would be perfect for a gamepad controlled RTS. Even as it still feels like a transplanted PC RTS, Halo Wars has still done pretty well for itself.

And I'm honestly surprised it has taken so long for a large drop off to occur to gaming sales. I share Charlequin's pessimism about what can even hope to sell on consoles...though I'm probably further down-feeling about it all, overall...and have been for a long time now.

 

[FrankT]

This was the second best April ever. How is that so horrible? I really don't understand this "sky is falling" attitude most everyone seems to have.

Yea 2nd best NPD ever based on what a huge chunk of DS's being sold out of normal. Let's wait for some May to put things into perspective then.

 

[Future PhaZe]

RE5 still getting quality sales

I think we're done there. Is there anyway to port it over to Wii now Capcom? MILK IT.

 

[itxaka]

Join the massive list of people who proved Hoffman wrong.

:lol


I'll love to see Hoffman response to NPD numbers but I'm not gonna check that stupid trashy alternate forum full of trolls.


Can't we have Hoffman unbanned once per month in order to have his hindsight on NPD numbers? :lol

 

[Wollan]

console rts developers need to look to madden and pikmin, not starcraft.

End War was onto the right thing. Not necessarily voice commands because after a while I started to steer away from it and just use controls but the viewpoint and controls was the right stuff.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

This was the second best April ever. How is that so horrible? I really don't understand this "sky is falling" attitude most everyone seems to have.

GAF has become accustomed to certain sensibilities.

Namely, that the video game market is shielded by pixie dust that makes it 100% recession proof.

 

[lowrider007]

WOW @ PS2 sales practically matching 360 sales lol

WOW @ 360 sales even with a $199 sku on the market.

Tbh PS3 sales @ 48k less than the 360 is not bad considering the $399 price point ;-P

 

[Arpharmd B]

Join the massive list of people who proved Hoffman wrong.

Now that Killzone has come and gone, I wonder how the hell he would spin the current state of affairs.

 

[Haunted]

I remember the microsoft pr induced spin about the game selling a million copies worldwide, and comments talking about how rts games on consoles can sell.

Well I guess they can, when you have the Halo name attached. But it looks like those sales are short lived.

Sales of a core game being frontloaded? I can't believe my eyes!

Doesn't matter whether it sells 1 million first month and piddling amounts the next five, or 200k for five months.


That said, Halo Wars' success was clearly due to the brand name and despite its genre, not because of it.

ghst has the right idea. Trying to put a traditional RTS game on the consoles and only adjust the controls is a recipe for disaster. At least without an IR pointer.

 

[w3stfa11]

At this month's NPD.

 

[VeritasVierge]

Is.. is that a MILLION for the DS?

 

[desh]

Yea 2nd best NPD ever based on what a huge chunk of DS's being sold out of normal. Let's wait for some May to put things into perspective then.

Yes, but even if you take out the handhelds from both April 2007 (previous second best April ever) and April 2009, April 2009 numbers still did better than April 2007 (814k vs. 810k).

 

[TheFightingFish]

console rts developers need to look to madden and pikmin, not starcraft.

Or Civilization Revolution. Not everyones cup of tea, but I though that game felt pretty nice with a gamepad. One of the better "PC" series moved to the console. Sold solidly as well if I recall correctly.

 

[Haunted]

RE5 still getting quality sales

I think we're done there. Is there anyway to port it over to Wii now Capcom? MILK IT.

Wait for Resident Evil: Africa Chronicles.

 

[FrankT]

Yes, but even if you take out the handhelds from both April 2007 (previous second best April ever) and April 2009, April 2009 numbers still did better than April 2007 (814k vs. 810k).

And the SW associated with those new owners? A variable not easily seen.


Do we have SW numbers for 07? I can see the down numbers from last year, but we did have GTA.

PS3 certainly wasn't doing that much better at $600 2 years ago while the PS2 was still kicking around.

 

[Mrbob]

This has been my view for a while now. For an RTS to really take off well on a controller, the game has to be built around the control device and not concepts of control that really only well apply to a mouse and keyboard. Too bad about Massive Entertainment cancelling World in Conflict for consoles...if they're wise, I think its control scheme (an upgraded form of Ground Control's excellent camera-based view) would be perfect for a gamepad controlled RTS. Even as it still feels like a transplanted PC RTS, Halo Wars has still done pretty well for itself.

Hate to break it to you, but neither the 360 controller or PS3 pad are good enough to build a compelling RTS around. If a console is your only method to play a certain RTS game, then it is better than nothing, but playing a RTS on a console is like going down a water slide with no water in it into an empty pool.

A new interface is needed. Something more than the wiimote as well.

It might feel weird at first, but perhaps the upcoming 360 camera might help out. There is still the issue with hotkeying though.

 

[Suburban Cowboy]

we have seen thousands of development houses and publishers abandon the PS3

:lol :lol :lol

 

[Loudninja]

:lol :lol :lol

Wait what?

 

[Deku]

recession proof status just wore.

Vit -20000

 

[Stoney Mason]

Gears has splitscreen, which allowed people to more easily convince friends to buy the game. Killzone 2 doesn't.

Gears's style: easily-accessible weaponry and gameplay modes, with over-the-top gore and steroid-filled protagonists. Killzone 2 mp: you're placing turrets, using disguises, forming squads, etc. This might have improved KZ's chances for a positive critical reception, but probably wasn't love at first sight for the typical mass-market gamer.

Gears was developed by Epic Games, who created the Unreal series. Killzone 2 was the sequel to the not-so-great Killzone 1. People had their doubts all the way up through launch.

Gears launched as the first big exclusive multiplayer shooter of this gen, during a holiday season. Killzone 2 launched well-after the gen started, and just before the Spring season.

Shooters are the Xbox's strongest genre and the PS3's weakest.

Outside of the controls (meaning sluggish or having weight depending on how you want to look at it) which is their own design call I think Killzone 2 is just as accessible as Gears. In a way without having to stop and take cover in a lot of cases like you do in Gears its even more accessible. Shooters might be more popular on the 360 but they are hardly a weak seller on the PS 3. Cod 4 and Cod waw seemed to have no problem posting relatively big numbers. There is some truth to the idea that for whatever reason Killzone 2 never become a cultural hit like Gears or Halo and maybe the first edition of the game being relatively weak did have some impact but does anyone for a second believe that if Killzone 2 was on the 360 it wouldn't have been exactly the cultural hit it needed to be. What has happened from the last two gens where Sony has been able to create these type of hits and now with the PS 3 struggles to do so?

 

[BorkBork]

Welp, gotta give it to Nintendo for the good timing of launching the DSi, even though it launched with absolutely no compelling software.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Hate to break it to you, but neither the 360 controller or PS3 pad are good enough to make a compelling RTS. If a console is your only method to play a certain RTS game, then it is better than nothing, but playing a RTS on a console is like going down a water slide with no water in it into an empty pool.

A new interface is needed. Something more than the wiimote as well.

It might feel weird at first, but perhaps the upcoming 360 camera might help out. There is still the issue with hotkeying though.

The thing I'm talking about is a new approach to the game itself via its interface and not trying to shoehorn standard PC RTS design and pacing onto a controller and it doesn't really mean using a pointer to emulate mouse control...it's all about leaving mouse control behind.

 

[Sadist]

I see tag fishing material right there folks.

 

[Zhuk]

Why don't you tell us you howreally feel?

:lol

Yes i'm one of N4G's most known Xbot villains, doesn't everyone know this already??

 

[Lebron]

It seems only Nintendo will be able to dance the dance of life for the month of April.

 

[ghst]

Sales of a core game being frontloaded? I can't believe my eyes!

Doesn't matter whether it sells 1 million first month and piddling amounts the next five, or 200k for five months.


That said, Halo Wars' success was clearly due to the brand name and despite its genre, not because of it.

ghst has the right idea. Trying to put a traditional RTS game on the consoles and only adjust the controls is a recipe for disaster. At least without an IR pointer.

for all intents and purposes madden is the perfect model for a console rts. you are co-ordinating multiple units with different roles towards a single goal from a distanced perspective, using a pre-thought out strategy.

the shortcomings of the controller are overcome by the autonomous nature of your units, and the need for action-based gameplay on the console space and the micromanagement quota is filled through direct control of a single unit at a time.

take these mechanics and put them on a battlefield and you've got a more suitable console rts than any currently on the market.

 

[desh]

And the SW associated with those new owners? A variable not easily seen.


Do we have SW numbers for 07? I can see the down numbers from last year, but we did have GTA.

PS3 certainly wasn't doing that much better at $600 2 years ago while the PS2 was still kicking around.

http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/NPD_April_2007

 

[Plinko]

So, who wants to make any bets on whether next generation's games will be priced back at $50?

 

[VALIS]

I remember the microsoft pr induced spin about the game selling a million copies worldwide, and comments talking about how rts games on consoles can sell.

Well I guess they can, when you have the Halo name attached. But it looks like those sales are short lived.

Of course they're short lived. What games don't show up in the NPD once or maybe twice and then disappear forever other than smash hits (Halos, Marios, Zeldas, CoDs, Maddens, Pokemons, Sims, maybe Resident Evils belong in there too) or the new fangled "utility games" like WiiFit and Brain Ages? RTS is a beloved genre among hardcores (by far my favorite), but it's not a blockbuster genre by any stretch of the imagination. Halo Wars selling over a million in a month was far better than most thought.

 

[Stoney Mason]

for all intensive purposes madden is the perfect model for a console rts. you are co-ordinating multiple units with different roles towards a single goal from a distanced perspective, using a pre-thought out strategy.

the shortcomings of the controller are overcome by the autonomous nature of your units, and the need for action-based gameplay on the console space and the micromanagement quota is filled through direct control of a single unit at a time.

That's an interesting way to look at it, which I've never thought of before. :lol

 

[MightyHedgehog]

for all intensive purposes madden is the perfect model for a console rts. you are co-ordinating multiple units with different roles towards a single goal from a distanced perspective, using a pre-thought out strategy.

the shortcomings of the controller are overcome by the autonomous nature of your units, and the need for action-based gameplay on the console space and the micromanagement quota is filled through direct control of a single unit at a time.

Alert! Alert!

 

[lowrider007]

It seems only Nintendo will be able to dance the dance of life for the month of April.

Lets be fair, I think PS2 deserves some credit, 172k for a console that is nearly a decade old, that's crazy.

 

[ghst]

Alert! Alert!

>>>google

well. you got me there.

 

[Mrbob]

The thing I'm talking about is a new approach to the game itself via its interface and not trying to shoehorn standard PC RTS design and pacing onto a controller and it doesn't really mean using a pointer to emulate mouse control...it's all about leaving mouse control behind.

The problem with this is a RTS about directing units across the map to your will. You need to be able to select them in a timely fashion and quickly adjust your tactics on the fly. If you take this aspect away, it isn't a real time strategy game anymore.

It can't be done, no matter how many times EA tries to reinvent the game interface for the 360 console.

 

[Lebron]

Lets be fair, I think PS2 deserves some credit, 172k for a console that is nearly a decade old, that's crazy.

It's clear it's become self aware, we need to take it out now before it's too late.


In all seriousness, yes, the fact it's still selling up there with the competition is pretty amazing. Too bad its little brother doesn't have that selling magic.

 

[Karma]

WOW @ PS2 sales practically matching 360 sales lol

WOW @ 360 sales even with a $199 sku on the market.

Tbh PS3 sales @ 48k less than the 360 is not bad considering the $399 price point ;-P

The 360 was up 40% over the PS3. How much should it win by to be considered good?

 

[charlequin]

I'm convinced that Sony will be first to launch next generation now.

I agree. Nintendo and Microsoft have both arguably "won" in their own ways; Sony has the most to gain by starting a new generation. But they still won't want to do so anytime soon: their options for a new generation are constrained as long as the PS3 is still <$150 price and they need to think about when they'll launch the PSP2 as well.

Apparently, the market is not yet ready for sequels to these titles as indicated by the strong demand the respective first entries still enjoy.

I've never understood why this argument magically only applies to Nintendo's properties. When games like God of War start selling large numbers month after month at Greatest Hits pricing, they get sequels announced. I find it hard to believe that NSMB has another 5+ million sales left in it for US consumption, or that NSMB2 wouldn't put up huge numbers immediately upon release. (And Nintendo has followed up Brain Training, Wii Sports, and Wii Fit with sequels, so why not NSMB?)

This was the second best April ever. How is that so horrible?

We've gone from four major systems (in the GBA's heyday) to five; we're in a generation with higher software and hardware prices across the board than the last two; and this month only did as well as it did partially on the back of that huge DSi launch.

 

[Haunted]

for all intensive purposes madden is the perfect model for a console rts. you are co-ordinating multiple units with different roles towards a single goal from a distanced perspective, using a pre-thought out strategy.

the shortcomings of the controller are overcome by the autonomous nature of your units, and the need for action-based gameplay on the console space and the micromanagement quota is filled through direct control of a single unit at a time.

take these mechanics and put them on a battlefield and you've got a more suitable console rts than any currently on the market.

Oh, that actually sounds a lot like the things I hear about PES Wii.

Up the scale to accomodate proper RTS tradition and that could work relatively well.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

It would be interesting just to know the actual overall budget for the title.


Anyone have LTD's?

$55 million....at least that is what I've heard.

 

[NullPointer]

... but does anyone for a second believe that if Killzone 2 was on the 360 it wouldn't have been exactly the cultural hit it needed to be. What has happened from the last two gens where Sony has been able to create these type of hits and now with the PS 3 struggles to do so?

On the 360 Killzone 2 would've had a party system, period. That alone would've made it more of a hit for me and my friends. Removing the ability to play friends-versus-bots for XP and splitting the playerbase with incompatible maps were also huge mistakes that left the more casual crowd out in the cold.

As it is, its a very well done single player game with an iffy/clusterfuck of a multiplayer component (maps too small for 32 players). I hope Guerrilla keeps the game alive for the long haul with some quality DLC, both campaign and versus. There is no need for them to depend upon just the first couple of months of sales when they can keep bringing the game back to the limelight with DLC ala Burnout Paradise.

 

[Haunted]

I've never understood why this argument magically only applies to Nintendo's properties. When games like God of War start selling large numbers month after month at Greatest Hits pricing, they get sequels announced. I find it hard to believe that NSMB has another 5+ million sales left in it for US consumption, or that NSMB2 wouldn't put up huge numbers immediately upon release. (And Nintendo has followed up Brain Training, Wii Sports, and Wii Fit with sequels, so why not NSMB?)

Well, the GoW comparison isn't fitting because these games are still sold at full-price, not part of budget/greatest hits collections.

The seemingly random nature of Nintendo's sequels is another matter entirely, though. I certainly can't explain it.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

So, who wants to make any bets on whether next generation's games will be priced back at $50?

Knowing this industry, they will probably go up to $70 $80. Developers/publishers will never learn.

 

[Stoney Mason]

The 360 was up 40% over the PS3. How much should it win by to be considered good?

He spins every month. He has to when for 6 months a system sells worse than its competition and worse than it did the prior year.

Wait for price drop!

 

[gregor7777]

I remember the microsoft pr induced spin about the game selling a million copies worldwide, and comments talking about how rts games on consoles can sell.

Well I guess they can, when you have the Halo name attached. But it looks like those sales are short lived.

I see. You had to have been in a frame of mind where you believe PR spin to understand the comment.

 

[Pachael]

These numbers in a month when the next PSP model rumors are being bandied about. :lol

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

I've never understood why this argument magically only applies to Nintendo's properties. When games like God of War start selling large numbers month after month at Greatest Hits pricing, they get sequels announced. I find it hard to believe that NSMB has another 5+ million sales left in it for US consumption, or that NSMB2 wouldn't put up huge numbers immediately upon release. (And Nintendo has followed up Brain Training, Wii Sports, and Wii Fit with sequels, so why not NSMB?)

Super Mario Bros. is not and never has been a series where they crank out sequels. The people incessantly crying about getting one are only going to be disappointed.

Spoiler

Because i've said that, NSMB2 will be announced at E3.

 

[nicknick]

Alert! Alert!

Good deed done for the day.

 

[soldat7]

Take a look at that chart. Ask yourself that question again. There's your answer.

Apparently, the market is not yet ready for sequels to these titles as indicated by the strong demand the respective first entries still enjoy.

Is GAF ready for sequels? Hell yes! We were ready for them two, maybe three or four weeks after NSMB released, because we were finished with the game by then.

They could quadruple their 'Mario Kart' sales with a DS sequel. They'd be earning more money, not less. In business, you cannibalize one of your own products once a more profitable business opportunity presents itself. Is Nintendo becoming complacent? E3 will be interesting.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

The problem with this is a RTS about directing units across the map to your will. You need to be able to select them in a timely fashion and quickly adjust your tactics on the fly. If you take this aspect away, it isn't a real time strategy game anymore.

You can still include all of the broader aspects expected of any RTS and still change the way in which you have access to and utilize them.

It can't be done, no matter how many times EA tries to reinvent the game interface for the 360 console.

The problem, in the case of EA's RTS conversions, is that the core gameplay is still fundamentally tied to the expectation of a certain kind of device that doesn't exist as the main interface (if it exists at all, depending on the platform) on the console. You have to build it from the ground up for controller and not look to PC RTS as the only way to create a real time strategy...or, really, a tactics game, which is all what all but a few are on PC...

 

[polyh3dron]

Holy fuck, Sony had better come out at their E3 press conference with a fucking price drop.