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[Sibylus]

You really think that spying on millions of germans is crucial to defend the US? Some form of intelligence service might be necessary for a nation like the US, but the NSA is way out of line and their focus seems to lie on different things than national security.

Bulk collection of German citizens' data is not synonymous with the existence of the NSA, let alone bulk collection of their own citizens' data, so no, I really do not think that. What I think is crucial to national security and further, civil liberties, is an NSA that works with oversight and not against it, and an NSA that isn't rendering itself half-blind in mountains of data because of a belief that algorithms will eventually save them and make all of it intelligible, actionable intelligence. All the while all that data sits around and is handled improperly for one reason or another.

Burning the NSA and the CIA to the ground is quintessential baby with bathwater alarmism.

 

[Angry Fork]

Angry Fork, you're kinda positing that the US shoot itself in the foot to achieve, at best, moral superiority. Moral superiority is piss-poor defense when you blind yourself to the intentions of actors all the way up to state-level entities, and it'd be folly to rely on your present-day military advantage alone to overcome that blindness in the eventuality of war.

No I just don't think the US should be an empire. And I'm not paranoid of China or India attacking the US for whatever reason anytime soon. The rag tag group of religious fanatics that hate secularists are real, but I don't believe are a large enough force to justify a more perfect recreation of the stasi (if we assume that's the reason the NSA records everything, which I don't believe is the only reason).

Burning the NSA and the CIA to the ground is quintessential baby with bathwater alarmism.

Despite the fact that both organizations have been (and will continue to be) used to suppress and destroy peaceful, democratic opposition to the state, through the use of blackmail, kidnapping, and murder.

 

[marrec]

We are already there.

By this standard we were there 50 years ago, don't get your revolution in a knot.

 

[Sibylus]

No I just don't think the US should be an empire. And I'm not paranoid of China or India attacking the US for whatever reason anytime soon. The rag tag group of religious fanatics that hate secularists are real, but I don't believe are a large enough force to justify a more perfect recreation of the stasi (if we assume that's the reason the NSA records everything, which I don't believe is the only reason).

You're positing much less than an empire dude, you're positing a strange outpost that shuts its eyes and ears to anything that isn't printed in the New York Times. No nation on earth maims itself thus.

 

[Sibylus]

Despite the fact that both organizations have been (and will continue to be) used to suppress and destroy peaceful, democratic opposition to the state, through the use of blackmail, kidnapping, and murder.

By this rationale, burn the entire US government and all of its branches to dust. If you really can't stand any evil to have done business with the good, ever, then you're not talking about an America that no longer runs a hegemony, you're talking about an America set on fire so as to satisfy your uncompromising zeal.

 

[Angry Fork]

Burning the NSA and the CIA to the ground is quintessential baby with bathwater alarmism.

Despite the fact that both organizations have been (and will continue to be) used to suppress and destroy peaceful, democratic opposition to the state and the forces of capital.

You're positing much less than an empire dude, you're positing a strange outpost that shuts its eyes and ears to anything that isn't printed in the New York Times. No nation on earth maims itself thus.

I'm not a nationalist, I don't think there's any intrinsic value in preserving the US government as it currently is. It doesn't defend/uphold any of the values it claims to, and many times works against them. That doesn't mean I think it's the worst thing on the planet btw, there are governments that are worse, this one is still bad though.

By this rationale, burn the entire US government and all of its branches to dust. If you really can't stand any evil to have done business with the good, ever, then you're not talking about an America that no longer runs a hegemony, you're talking about an America set on fire so as to satisfy your uncompromising zeal.

I'm not a pacifist or always opposed to bad things done for the sake of a greater good, I just don't feel that's what's happening here. The NSA is as much a 'pragmatic' response to a 'terrorist problem' as Austerity is to the 'debt problem'. A class and ideological war is being waged against the general public in both cases.

 

[davepoobond]

it sounds like they're just making shit up now. holy shit.


i didn't even know these cable things existed, it seriously sounds so stupid. Sea-Me-We??? that's worse than Wii U!

 

[Sibylus]

I'm not a nationalist, I don't think there's any intrinsic value in preserving the US government as it currently is. It doesn't defend/uphold any of the values it claims to, and many times works against them. That doesn't mean I think it's the worst thing on the planet btw, there are governments that are worse, this one is still bad though.

I'm not a nationalist either, but neither am I an unhinged reactionary. And there is plenty of intrinsic value in preserving the US government, reforming it, and continuing to reform the intelligence services instead of just smashing shit and calling things solved. Trouble is that all those nuances are lost when you paint in brushes no smaller than a flying fortress.

Quell your outrage, slow down, muse upon the details you'd otherwise paint away in the heat of the moment. Anger has its purposes, but anger is wasted if you let it blind you and aim in a generic "fuck the NSA and the US burn it down start over" direction. This should be a trigger for you to be more thoughtful, not less.

I'm not a pacifist or always opposed to bad things done for the sake of a greater good, I just don't feel that's what's happening here. The NSA is as much a 'pragmatic' response to a 'terrorist problem' as Austerity is to the 'debt problem'. A class and ideological war is being waged against the general public in both cases.

Nor am I pacifist, and again, does not indicate I'm in favor of just tearing shit down and starting from ground zero. And your metaphor is clumsy: bulk collection was the chosen response to the terrorist problem, not the NSA as a whole.

 

[Charcoal]

So they basically broke into an admin website that watches over the line? You can't intercept information from fiber unless you splice into it, correct?

 

[krameriffic]

it sounds like they're just making shit up now. holy shit.


i didn't even know these cable things existed, it seriously sounds so stupid. Sea-Me-We??? that's worse than Wii U!

Umm, how did you think high-bandwidth communications occurred across the ocean if not over huge fiber bundles?

 

[Rookje]

If it isn't about aliens or AI robots I don't really care anymore.

 

[davepoobond]

Umm, how did you think high-bandwidth communications occurred across the ocean if not over huge fiber bundles?

lots of satellites.

 

[Game-Biz]

Meh. Hopefully they're getting some good shit I guess.

 

[Thursday War]

we have to build our own cable and patrol it. gaf only

i approve. let's kickstart this GAF!!

 

[The Elite]

lots of satellites.

I'd love to see a documentary on the undersea cable network. You really don't think about it that much. It seems like it would be a lot of work to maintain.

This shocked me too (Wikipedia):

As of 2006, overseas satellite links accounted for only 1 percent of international traffic, while the remainder was carried by undersea cable. The reliability of submarine cables is high, especially when (as noted above) multiple paths are available in the event of a cable break. Also, the total carrying capacity of submarine cables is in the terabits per second, while satellites typically offer only megabits per second and display higher latency. However, a typical multi-terabit, transoceanic submarine cable system costs several hundred million dollars to construct.[24]

As a result of these cables' cost and usefulness, they are highly valued not only by the corporations building and operating them for profit, but also by national governments. For instance, the Australian government considers its submarine cable systems to be "vital to the national economy". Accordingly, the Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA) has created protection zones that restrict activities that could potentially damage cables linking Australia to the rest of the world. The ACMA also regulates all projects to install new submarine cables.[25]

 

[Maninthemirror]

The NSA collects data from our teeth. We need to pull them all out.

Why do you think implants are so much more expensive than extraction? Cost of materials

 

[Septimius]

So, the US decides to eavesdrop on what the entire rest of the world is saying - and when caught, they say "but, but.. terrorism!"? And then it's OK?

What the fuck. Why aren't governments up in arms about this shit?!

 

[Kiraly]

And the NSA will continue to get away with it.

The American economy won't.

 

[Hex]

So, the US decides to eavesdrop on what the entire rest of the world is saying - and when caught, they say "but, but.. terrorism!"? And then it's OK?

What the fuck. Why aren't governments up in arms about this shit?!

Because as it most cases when it comes to the US, what are they going to do about it.
This is what it comes down to with pretty much most things.
What are they going to do about it, cry to the UN?

 

[timetokill]

Well according to the justice system, it's not breaking the law for the NSA to spy on Americans if Congress never intended for Americans to find out the NSA was breaking the law to spy on them.

No joke. That's actually the ruling. It's okay for the government to break the law as long as they didn't mean to have citizens find out they were breaking the law.

 

[enewtabie]

So, the US decides to eavesdrop on what the entire rest of the world is saying - and when caught, they say "but, but.. terrorism!"? And then it's OK?

What the fuck. Why aren't governments up in arms about this shit?!

Probably because some goverments benefit from it and share or have something similar to that program.I know we aren't the only ones in the world that do this.

 

[someday]

So, the US decides to eavesdrop on what the entire rest of the world is saying - and when caught, they say "but, but.. terrorism!"? And then it's OK?

What the fuck. Why aren't governments up in arms about this shit?!

Because according to the article below, they are doing it too.

Tapping and collecting data from undersea cables is not new. First instance started in the 1970s and only ended because a traitor informed the Russians. Only the methods change over time. The United States has a submarine that exists for purely this purpose.

http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...ng-practice-of-undersea-cable-tapping/277855/

Good read

The Brits are right there with us.

 

[ErnieMcCracken]

I read this 2 years ago, so the Snowden leaks and everything else coming out haven't exactly been surprising in the least. Shit has been out there for a long time, it wasn't until Snowden that anyone gave a shit about it (or people refused to believe it).

 

[Enron]

The Brits are right there with us.

I was trying to find some information on how many nations are believed to have tapped into the cable networks but couldn't, beyond the US and its allies (specifically Britain, New Zealand, Australia, and Canada). But i'm pretty sure its a safe bet that any major world power, especially those that have these cables touch their shores, have also tapped into them.

 

[wsippel]

The funny thing is that the NSA collects so much shit, they can't possible comb through it anymore. Same thing happened with the MfS in East Germany. Spy everywhere, collect everything, billions of pages of record, no way to filter all the noise. The biggest intelligence agency ever (at the time) - and the most inefficient one. The NSA is probably even more inefficient. They burn huge amounts of taxpayer money simply to appear busy, collecting tons of nonsense because they can, with no worthwhile results whatsoever. Not a single terrorist act prevented, not a single important arrest made - just tons of money out of the window for utterly useless bullshit. Oh, and lots of illegal, yet obviously wanted and encouraged industrial espionage, of course. But that could be had a lot cheaper.

 

[snacknuts]

I'd love to see a documentary on the undersea cable network. You really don't think about it that much. It seems like it would be a lot of work to maintain.

This shocked me too (Wikipedia):

Dude, me too. I was shocked to learn not too long ago that they started laying undersea communication cables before the Civil War.

 

[Neo C.]

So, the US decides to eavesdrop on what the entire rest of the world is saying - and when caught, they say "but, but.. terrorism!"? And then it's OK?

What the fuck. Why aren't governments up in arms about this shit?!

These governments are cowards. They don't have any problem to bully small countries, but the US don't even get a slap by them.

 

[tino]

I would not be surprised if I read an article about NSA collecting our masturbation habit through the laptop webcams. And if and when I read this article, I won't be able to tell if its an Onion piece.

 

[wsippel]

So, the US decides to eavesdrop on what the entire rest of the world is saying - and when caught, they say "but, but.. terrorism!"? And then it's OK?

What the fuck. Why aren't governments up in arms about this shit?!

Because everybody does it. When Merkel bitched about the US spying on her, she must have known that the BND is spying on every official in the US, up to and including the president, as well. "Don't get caught" is the first rule of espionage. The NSA is overdoing it and got caught, that's why they get some flak now.

 

[WalkMan]

This is old news. Navy has vehicles that can splice into these cables for many many years now.

 

[commedieu]

Spy on everyone to make sure they're not going to do anything wrong. Yep. Sounds legit.

a whole lotta ball dropping when it comes to domestic terrorism though..

a whole lot.

 

[davepoobond]

So, the US decides to eavesdrop on what the entire rest of the world is saying - and when caught, they say "but, but.. terrorism!"? And then it's OK?

What the fuck. Why aren't governments up in arms about this shit?!

If they're doing the same shit why would they want it stopped?

 

[Starviper]

it sounds like they're just making shit up now. holy shit.


i didn't even know these cable things existed, it seriously sounds so stupid. Sea-Me-We??? that's worse than Wii U!

Undersea cabling is a really interesting subject in itself. The billions they cost to deploy and maintain make it so only international agreements or agreements signed by multiple international corporations get the job started. I would say that they are even more valuable than most resources on earth at this point. Having control over them and being able to monitor communications on them is a serious political issue. My mind boggles.

 

[LeleSocho]

I'd love to see a documentary on the undersea cable network. You really don't think about it that much. It seems like it would be a lot of work to maintain.

This shocked me too (Wikipedia):

It-It's a series of tubes.

 

[jimi_dini]

Burning the NSA and the CIA to the ground is quintessential baby with bathwater alarmism.

Why burn them down? That would ruin the fun.

Their actions already started to ruin US economy. And then US companies - the only ones, that the system in power actually cares about - will stop them.

Isn't it funny? "Land of the free and brave" and "we are the good ones, that totally makes it okay" bullcrap and most people don't seem to care about privacy and all that until they are involved personally (when it's too late). Instead the ones stopping those criminals will be Mr. capitalism + Mr. greed. Finally something positive that comes out of greed.

What the fuck. Why aren't governments up in arms about this shit?!

Have you missed Snowden's requests for asylum? No government in Europe wanted to give him that. Guess why. It's because the governments in Europe give a shit about their own citizens. It's as simple as that. They are actually spying on their own citizens using the help of US. They don't trust their own citizens.

 

[ab.aeterno]

Because everybody does it. When Merkel bitched about the US spying on her, she must have known that the BND is spying on every official in the US, up to and including the president, as well. "Don't get caught" is the first rule of espionage. The NSA is overdoing it and got caught, that's why they get some flak now.

But the issue isn't necessarily that they're doing it, but the scale of it, correct? Mass surveillance of American citizens, even if in bulk, does not immediately seem beneficial to fighting foreign terrorism. In fact, wasn't there a big story recently that the panel tasked with reviewing this whole fiasco found it hadn't credibly stopped any attacks with all of these programs in place?

And when you start to view this through the lens of Constitutionality, particularly if you're a strict constructionist, it becomes apparent that there are probably some significant issues with the size and scope that domestic spying has taken.