Support NeoGAF

[xexex]

original article:
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2004/1209/kaigai140.htm

from B3D:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=427972#427972

Now, with the announcement of the nVIDIA partnership, in the 2004/12/09 article, from nVIDIA CEO's remarks Goto expects the graphics hardware in the PS3 is in the 'Media Processor' category which includes GoForce and covers non-graphics features such as audio/network, rather than separated GPU/MCP. It's said that Kutaragi also is calling the chip in the PS3 as 'Media Engine' rathar than 'Graphics Engine' (PSP's Media Engine is indicative?).

so Nvidia is developing the graphics engine (or at least part of it) but also an MCP-like part, to be included with the graphics engine, all in one 'Media Engine'.

what do you techies think about this?

 

[soundwave05]

I get the strange feeling Sony is going to try to push the PS3/CELL chipset into PCs.

 

[Vark]

why not, MS has alread said they plan on doing it.

The moneys in the software, not the hardware, the more they can offload the cost of the chipset onto other hardware manufacturers, the less they lose and the more people have access to the software (in theory).

Creative 3DO blaster, here we come!

 

[EekTheKat]

It's strange - Nvidia audio is generally held in pretty high regard in the PC category (low CPU overhead for 3d sound, Dolby Digital functions, ect..ect), yet they've never expanded upon it. - and pretty much have only 1 official product out there (soundstorm)

Though I did read that Soundstorm 2 is coming though - wonder if that will be the derivative of what's in the PS3.

 

[xexex]

I get the strange feeling Sony is going to try to push the PS3/CELL chipset into PCs.

I don't,

I think Sony and IBM have plans to at least attempt to obliterate and replace PCs all together and other workstations. as well as Xboxen

*PS3 consoles
*PS3 Home Server consoles
*Cell-based workstations
*IBM/Apple/Sony Cell-based Macs or new line of computers
*Cell & Linux based computers

 

[sprsk]

NVIDIA also developing casing, marketing, controllers, smell and logo for ps3

 

[Pimpbaa]

As long as Nvidia is only developing this chipset, Sony should be fine. Nvidia developing AND manufacturing chipsets for the xbox meant they really had MS by the balls (MS wanting the chips for cheaper and Nvidia not wanting to sell them for the price MS wanted).

 

[Hardknock]

I don't,

I think Sony and IBM have plans to at least attempt to obliterate and replace PCs all together and other workstations. as well as Xboxen

*PS3 consoles
*PS3 Home Server consoles
*Cell-based workstations
*IBM/Apple/Sony Cell-based Macs or new line of computers
*Cell & Linux based computers

Is there no "Windows" software in this equation? Am I sensing the true reason that Microsoft entered into the videogame "war"?? Very interesting to say the least. Microsoft can smell threats from a mile away and will try to stomp them in the ground at all costs(literally). For some reason I love Microsoft for it. :lol

 

[soundwave05]

Well Sony actually said five years ago at the PS2 unveiling press conference that eventually the road map (of making supercomputer level processors in house) would even topple the "Wintel" empire. So its been no secret.

I could just picture Bill Gates sitting on the beach, spitting out his drink as he read that :lol

Not coinicidentally, the XBox project moved from "maybe" status to "officially greenlit" soon after, although I think Microsoft initially tried to get Nintendo agree to a partnership/buyout.

 

[Hardknock]

Well Sony actually said five years ago at the PS2 unveiling press conference that eventually the road map (of making supercomputer level processors in house) would even topple the "Wintel" empire. So its been no secret.

I could just picture Bill Gates sitting on the beach, spitting out his drink as he read that :lol

Not coinicidentally, the XBox project moved from "maybe" status to "officially greenlit" soon after, although I think Microsoft initially tried to get Nintendo agree to a partnership/buyout.

Interesting. That would have been very lucrative to both parties. Nintendo would get to use Microsofts high-end tech, Microsoft would have had more leverage in Japan with the console, Nintendo would have probably sold more games since the userbase would have been larger. Together they seem to fill out the problems with each other. To bad Nintendo has to much Pride to do something like that, even if it makes a whole lot of sense(in the console world that is.)

 

[lexi]

Interesting. That would have been very lucrative to both parties. Nintendo would get to use Microsofts high-end tech, Microsoft would have had more leverage in Japan with the console, Nintendo would have probably sold more games since the userbase would have been larger. Together they seem to fill out the problems with each other. To bad Nintendo has to much Pride to do something like that, even if it makes a whole lot of sense(in the console world that is.)

It would be pretty awesome to see what EAD and such could do with Xbox tech, but knowing Microsoft, they would probably lobotomize Nintendo.

 

[DCharlie]

Even if the situation of Cell based PCs suddenly becoming instant replacements all over the world for current x86 machines, how many second do you think it would take MS to decide to launch a Cell based version of Windows?

And do you think joe public is gonna chose Windows or Linux?

 

[Panajev2001a]

Even if the situation of Cell based PCs suddenly becoming instant replacements all over the world for current x86 machines, how many second do you think it would take MS to decide to launch a Cell based version of Windows?

And do you think joe public is gonna chose Windows or Linux?

Windows.

 

[Hardknock]

Even if the situation of Cell based PCs suddenly becoming instant replacements all over the world for current x86 machines, how many second do you think it would take MS to decide to launch a Cell based version of Windows?

And do you think joe public is gonna chose Windows or Linux?

With all this "in-house" stuff Sony is touting. What would be different for them to invest BILLIONS into developing their own operating system?? Sony is bold and aggressive enough to try to do it if they thought they could succeed. Microsoft on the other hand I can't see letting Sony get into that position in the first place though. Thus the Xbox.

 

[DCharlie]

"What would be different for them to invest BILLIONS into developing their own operating system?? Sony is bold and aggressive enough to try to do it if they thought they could succeed. Microsoft on the other hand I can't see letting Sony get into that position in the first place though"

1) do they have the cash to fund such a venture? they definitely have the balls to try it though

2) do they have the expertese to do it? Perhaps with IBMs help but given that Linux is not making that much of an impact on the DESKTOP front (no doubt that it's doing wonders in the server world) , even then it would be a VERY bold move.

MS are entrenched, Windows is entrenched. But all competition is good, so hopefully they'll put something together and scare MS a bit.

 

[kaching]

May not be the most appropriate topic for it, but since discussion has swung towards STI aspirations to topple the Wintel empire, I looks like the Lenovo purchase of majority ownership of IBM's PC business would leave IBM out on the PC front...

IBM buying Apple? No dice
December 8, 2004, 3:51 PM PST

As soon as rumors began to fly about the IBM-Lenovo deal, bloggers and others began to buzz about the possibility that IBM would use the opportunity to buy Apple. The thinking goes that freed of the PC unit, IBM's server and microprocessor units--which plug the PowerPC chip--would push to buy the company as a way to break Intel's stranglehold.

The contract posted by Lenovo, however, says no. Page eight says that directly or indirectly, IBM or its subsidiaries agree not to sell or manufacture personal computers for five years.

Meanwhile, page 36 defines a "personal computer" as "any self-contained, programmable general-purpose computing device in a desktop, mobile or tablet platform." In other words, no matter what the chip or OS, IBM can't do it.

But a bit of wiggle room remains for conspiracy theorists: servers and workstations designed for high-end applications and compact mobile devices. Interpret that as you will.

http://news.com.com/2061-1003_3-5484184.html

So unless they roll Cell chips into the Lenovo venture, the only actual IBM hardware with Cell chips in it is likely to be servers or high-end workstations from the sound of things.

 

[DCharlie]

"So unless they roll Cell chips into the Lenovo venture, the only actual IBM hardware with Cell chips in it is likely to be servers or high-end workstations from the sound of things."

that would be a good move - if Cell has the umph and scalability and nice price point as suggested, then Sony/IBM should make an absolute killing in the server work space.

 

[kaching]

Well, that much has been expected almost since the inception of the project. Just interesting that Cell-based PCs may be off the table from IBM now, leaving it to Sony and Toshiba, if that's what they're really interested in pursuing,

 

[Panajev2001a]

"So unless they roll Cell chips into the Lenovo venture, the only actual IBM hardware with Cell chips in it is likely to be servers or high-end workstations from the sound of things."

that would be a good move - if Cell has the umph and scalability and nice price point as suggested, then Sony/IBM should make an absolute killing in the server work space.

But would it be enough to convince mr. "we invented the GBA-Main-frame re-mix" to buy one ?

(just teasing)

 

[DCharlie]

"But would it be enough to convince mr. "we invented the GBA-Main-frame re-mix" to buy one ?"

if i can get some nob-swingly large through put numbers for my works projects, i will happily have Cells installed in my ass.

 

[Vennt]

Well, that much has been expected almost since the inception of the project. Just interesting that Cell-based PCs may be off the table from IBM now, leaving it to Sony and Toshiba, if that's what they're really interested in pursuing,

Given IBM's history I wouldn't call it 'interesting' - more like 'expected'

IBM has no interest in the desktop, or consumer hardware anymore, it has been trying over time to divest itself of most of its loss-making hardware divisions, except for the server & 'big iron' space, which is a significant part of its bottom line.

 

[kaching]

I agree, but press perspective has generally leaned toward painting IBM as the disgruntled, toppled PC king looking for a way to dethrone the usurper and reclaim their bloodright, blah blah blah...it's certainly been suggested within the context of the STI venture quite a few times.

 

[ourumov]

Is just like if ATI and Nvidia were absolutelly necessary in order to build a new gaming machine. Console gaming has evolved without them for tons of years and now, all of a sudden, nobody is able to do nothing without them. It would be great to see other solutions implemented by other talented hardware companies...in both CPU/GPU fields.

This is just like saying: "Well, Cell isn't as cool as we expected !". If Cell is a failure in terms of power delivered then Sony would have spend tons of money for nothing. Perhaps the problem is that they aren't ready to bring to high scale productivity (CPus, Gpus, custom chipsets,etc) the Cell paradigm but I expected PS3 to be entirelly build around it.

 

[Panajev2001a]

"But would it be enough to convince mr. "we invented the GBA-Main-frame re-mix" to buy one ?"

if i can get some nob-swingly large through put numbers for my works projects, i will happily have Cells installed in my ass.

:lol.

 

[DCharlie]

.... they would be probably more useful up my ass than they would be here....

recap : "Give us 10,000 records an hour capacity"
*4 months hard graft*
Here you go - here is 100,000 thousand records an hour capacity! SHOCK AND AWE!

Total volume through new super scalable processing stream....

147 records ....
total...
in 5 weeks.

ROOFLES.

 

[gofreak]

I get the strange feeling Sony is going to try to push the PS3/CELL chipset into PCs.

NVidia have said that their next gen Geforce, from which PS3's GPU will draw tech, won't be cell based. Perhaps beyond that though...maybe. It's possible if the PS3 GPU is cell based that Sony are enforcing exclusivity so that the only cell-based graphics chip is in PS3 for a certain amount of time (i.e. there won't be one in PC land for a little while) - just to reinforce PS3's "exoticness" and the "standing out from the crowd" quality (i.e. for marketing purposes).

edit - from that same article in the B3D thread (from passerby):

Article noted that sometime ago, KK publicly stated that PS3 will not be using CELL alone, but will work with a "media processor". (I definitely remember that one.)

That's interesting. I don't remember hearing that myself. If that's exactly how he phrased it himself, it further decreases the possibility of the PS3 gpu being cell based, imo.

Industry rumour/news: SCEI had intended to have an internal team design the PS3 GPU originally. But when XBox launched with a GPU from Nvidia, the final product caused great discomfort to SCEI. SCEI began re-evaluating their plans, and chose a parallel aproach. Internal development continued, and SCEI started liasing with PC graphics vendors as well. The final decision was not made till recently.

That's also interesting. Would Sony have really been that surprised about Xbox's performance given that it was coming out over a year later? If the final decision was also recent, not long before the announcement, then it also further tallys with the rumours of the NV50 cancellation.

edit 2 - I'd put a question mark after " NVIDIA also developing audio, communications, media functions for PS3" - this seems to be an analyst's speculation?

 

[MightyHedgehog]

It seems that Sony will get a better deal working with nVidia who will provide the audio, video, and perhaps something else like an ethernet port than MS got with the XBOX, where nVidia provided the same hardware (GPU, audio, ethernet). Sony XBOX 2...with the super hyped-CELL stuff, of course.

 

[DCharlie]

"Industry rumour/news: SCEI had intended to have an internal team design the PS3 GPU originally. But when XBox launched with a GPU from Nvidia, the final product caused great discomfort to SCEI. SCEI began re-evaluating their plans, and chose a parallel aproach. Internal development continued, and SCEI started liasing with PC graphics vendors as well. The final decision was not made till recently. "

you're winner!

 

[DSN2K]

SOUNDSTORM

 

[Panajev2001a]

.... they would be probably more useful up my ass than they would be here....

recap : "Give us 10,000 records an hour capacity"
*4 months hard graft*
Here you go - here is 100,000 thousand records an hour capacity! SHOCK AND AWE!

Total volume through new super scalable processing stream....

147 records ....
total...
in 5 weeks.

ROOFLES.

I think they are limiting order volume on purpose to humble you .

 

[mrklaw]

well consider him well and truly hubbled

 

[Panajev2001a]

"Industry rumour/news: SCEI had intended to have an internal team design the PS3 GPU originally. But when XBox launched with a GPU from Nvidia, the final product caused great discomfort to SCEI. SCEI began re-evaluating their plans, and chose a parallel aproach. Internal development continued, and SCEI started liasing with PC graphics vendors as well. The final decision was not made till recently. "

you're winner!

That is the best way to handle development: you get the best part possible (chosen between all the designs, the internal one and the external ones) instead of just the best your own-labs can cook up (which might be powerful, the GS was indeed powerful, but I guess that they wanted something better than what their own in-house labs could do by themselves... no shame on this nVIDIA has much more experience in 3D graphics processign and Sony can still help on the engineering side of things) and by manufacturing the GPU, whatever design it is, you keep the fab running.

 

[monkeyrun]

I get the strange feeling Sony is going to try to push the PS3/CELL chipset into PCs.

that would be nice.... I'll be first in line if they actually do that.

 

[snapty00]

I can't believe someone would even suggest that CELL could be some type of x86 replacement. There are better architectures out there right now, and they basically don't even compete with Intel in the desktop space.

 

[ThirdEye]

edit 2 - I'd put a question mark after " NVIDIA also developing audio, communications, media functions for PS3" - this seems to be an analyst's speculation?

Read the original thread carefully.
Which company provides what functionality found in Media Processor is, except for 3D graphics (led by the nVIDIA initiative), not necessarily determined. IMO sound/network etc. are not provided by nVIDIA but by Sony or Toshiba, implemented in the same Media Processor. So no Soundstorm, as it's not necessary technology for Sony. Since it's IP licensing, chip implementation will still be done by Sony/Toshiba, not by nVIDIA. One thing for sure is that they co-develop one silicon chip other than Cell. For example the PSP SoC, a single chip, contains many dedicated function cores, and if a media processor in PS3 is something like that, one of such cores will be an nVIDIA-inspired GPU core.