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[Soulscribe]

Ugh. So upsetting how this election turned out, and how despite all the factors that led to her loss, so many people would rather singularly blame her than look at all the forces that deliberately worked against her. I feel bad for Hillary.

 

[Heshinsi]

In the end - think people didn't give a fuck about who was "worse" but who had a policy plan that was clearly laid out they believed in.

What policy plan did Trump actually lay out?

"I'm going to build a wall and have Mexico pay for it!" How?

"I'm going to ban Muslims!" How?

"I'm going to bring back those jobs the Chinese and Mexicans stole from us!" How?

"I'm going to get rid of Obamacare and replace it with something better!" How?

Donald Trump never once answered how he planned on doing the shit he kept spewing. As we see in his first 100 days in office, the guy had no fucking plan. So what exactly were his voters believing in?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Our party will never fucking have unity (on political views) because it's a coalition of diverse interests!

You are asking for the impossible! It's not a party of idealogues! If you turn it into that, you get modern-day UK Labour. And that's terrible for everyone.

It should be obvious by now the Republicans are also a coalition and a very fractured and divided one. We could easily peel off many people who voted for Trump, who previously voted for Obama (twice), if we wanted to!

Why don't some of the people here want to?

 

[Heshinsi]

It should be obvious by now the Republicans are also a coalition and a very fractured and divided one. We could easily peel off many people who voted for Trump, who previously voted for Obama (twice), if we wanted to!

Why don't some of the people here want to?

Because those people you mention make up a small minority of republican voters. Huge chunks of the left are at odds with each other, but the right almost always fall in line behind the party. The only times they don't is when there are multiple right wing political parties. It's mostly left leaning voters that sit out when they don't get their perfect little candidates, etc.

 

[legacyzero]

What policy plan did Trump actually lay out?

"I'm going to build a wall and have Mexico pay for it!" How?

"I'm going to ban Muslims!" How?

"I'm going to bring back those jobs the Chinese and Mexicans stole from us!" How?

"I'm going to get rid of Obamacare and replace it with something better!" How?

Donald Trump never once answered how he planned on doing the shit he kept spewing. As we see in his first 100 days in office, the guy had no fucking plan. So what exactly were his voters believing in?

You didn't even mention the primary thing he talked about that lost us the election.

JOBS. TRADE. RUST BELT.

Democrat territory. Hillary had a horrible past of support for trade agreements that harmed the democratic firewall. Two-Time Obama voters from that territory cited this DIRECTLY.

"But she's against TPP!" No. she wasn't. She lobbied for the goddamn thing 45 times, called it the gold standard, then conveniently came out against it when facing Bernie in her lonnnng journey to move left and defeat him.

Trump came out against TPP, jobs shipping over seas, etc. JOBS JOBS JOBS. Hillary supported those things historically. She even ignored a sizable chunk of the rust best, assuming it was in the bag. Wisconsin, (Bernie territory), Michigan (Bernie Territory). Why would she ignore these places when the signs were there?

It should be obvious by now the Republicans are also a coalition and a very fractured and divided one. We could easily peel off many people who voted for Trump, who previously voted for Obama (twice), if we wanted to!

Why don't some of the people here want to?

Because they're now considered part of the deplorable bunch who hates all minorities, and shouldn't be concerned for any other issue other than the social ones. I swear, people on my twitter feed are convinced that these people are awful now LOL

Our party will never fucking have unity (on political views) because it's a coalition of diverse interests!

You are asking for the impossible! It's not a party of idealogues! If you turn it into that, you get modern-day UK Labour. And that's terrible for everyone.

Scare tactic. Like, you're barely even being annecdotal. When you drill down, no. You DONT have different interests. At it's core, we have the same wants. Social issues included. We just seem to be going about them differently. Unity is possible, and we should actively be working for it. Or lose again. Very simple. A fractured party is a dead party.

 

[SlimySnake]

I am a pretty big Hillary supporter on these boards but she could've done a better job going after the Bernie supporters. She just assumed that they would come to her side but clearly a big percentage of them never did. Millennial turn out wasnt that great and only about 57% voted for her. A large percentage voted third party. She lost whites by a record margin and the blame lies with her for not adjusting.


Ultimately both her and Obama gave Americans too much credit. They thought America wouldn't vote for a vile racist sexist piece of shit. They were wrong.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

On what basis are you arguing that affluent white suburban Republicans weren't a major focus, if not *the* major focus, of Clinton's general election campaign? Schumer outright said as much, in his infamous "for every WCW we lose" quote.

It seems pretty clear to me that Hillary was more concerned with winning over the Bernie or bust types, having adopted such a progressive platform and talking so forthrightly about a lot of progressive causes following the convention. But like I said, she was trying to sell the message to people who just weren't going to buy it from her.

 

[aeolist]

the question of policy vs personality and change vs status quo that everyone always gets bogged down on in these threads seems tangential in a discussion of this book. that stuff (along with russia/fbi/etc) is in there, sure, but we already knew about it.

the really interesting new info is about how incredibly poorly the campaign was organized and run, and how flat-out terrible clinton was as a leader. i've read a few articles reviewing it now and some of the anecdotes and background quotes that have been cited are fucking unreal. i voted for her, sure, but i was worried about her ability to administer the workings of the US government and it looks like it would have been even worse than i thought. the woman is a fucking train wreck.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

I think it's difficult to narrow down all the anti-Hillary factors down into one single narrative (although establishment vs anti-establishmentism comes close), personally I consider losing to Donald Trump in a general election being pretty much the closest practical definition of "unelectable" ever had in recent American history.

 

[Suikoguy]

Trade is not the problem, automation is.

 

[kirblar]

It should be obvious by now the Republicans are also a coalition and a very fractured and divided one. We could easily peel off many people who voted for Trump, who previously voted for Obama (twice), if we wanted to!

Why don't some of the people here want to?

No. No we couldn't. That's the lie. Trying to rely on the people who backstabbed you 37 years ago isn't going to work.

Move forward. Adapt. Don't try to grasp at what worked before, because it isn't there any more. Those people moved on. So should we.

I'd also argue that getting a Jimmy Carter-type candidate in the WH would be disastrous for the Dems, just as it's currently disastrous for the GOP.

 

[legacyzero]

I am a pretty big Hillary supporter on these boards but she could've done a better job going after the Bernie supporters. She just assumed that they would come to her side but clearly a big percentage of them never did. Millennial turn out wasnt that great and only about 57% voted for her. A large percentage voted third party. She lost whites by a record margin and the blame lies with her for not adjusting.

As a Bernie supporter who voted for Hillary in the GE, I agree. Not once did I ever feel like her or the DNC tried to extend the olive branch. Even at the Convention, As Bernie rightfully gave up and endorsed right there.

And at most, giving Bernie the VP spot would have healed a lot of those wounds. Maybe not at first, but with some reassurance from Bernie, it would have happened. Tim Kaine is a fucking joke lol

Trade is not the problem, automation is.

Go ahead and tell this to the people suffering right now who have lost, or are at danger of losing their jobs in that region. Look at what happened at Carrier during the election!. These people aren't concerned for automation right now. Clearly.

 

[Neoweee]

I think it's difficult to narrow down all the anti-Hillary factors down into one single narrative (although establishment vs anti-establishmentism comes close), personally I consider losing to Donald Trump being pretty much the closest practical definition of "unelectable" ever had in recent American history.

Marco Rubio, Jeb Bush, and various sitting senators and governors are "unelectable"? Okay.

 

[jack_package_200]

As a Bernie supporter who voted for Hillary in the GE, I agree. Not once did I ever feel like her or the DNC tried to extend the olive branch. Even at the Convention, As Bernie rightfully gave up and endorsed right there.

They let Bernie's people which included Cornel fucking West have a huge say on writing the party platform. Thats an olive branch.

 

[The Technomancer]

Trade is not the problem, automation is.

Efficiency in general really. Our socialism and socialism flavored philosophies needs to start moving post labor stat.

 

[kirblar]

As a Bernie supporter who voted for Hillary in the GE, I agree. Not once did I ever feel like her or the DNC tried to extend the olive branch. Even at the Convention, As Bernie rightfully gave up and endorsed right there.

And at most, giving Bernie the VP spot would have healed a lot of those wounds. Maybe not at first, but with some reassurance from Bernie, it would have happened. Tim Kaine is a fucking joke lol

They let Bernie's people which included Cornel fucking West have a huge say on writing the party platform. Thats an olive branch.

"Feel" - there's your problem right there.

 

[Suikoguy]

Go ahead and tell this to the people suffering right now who have lost, or are at danger of losing their jobs in that region. Look at what happened at Carrier during the election!. These people aren't concerned for automation right now. Clearly.

So, your argument is to lie to people?

 

[xxracerxx]

It's like some people wanted Hillary to fellate Sanders on stage and only then would the party be mended. Like taking a ton of his most important platform points and running with it wasn't enough.

 

[The Technomancer]

Go ahead and tell this to the people suffering right now who have lost, or are at danger of losing their jobs in that region. Look at what happened at Carrier during the election!. These people aren't concerned for automation right now. Clearly.

American manufacturing is doing the best it's done in decades. It's doing very very well. It hires less people because they need far less people to achieve equivalent output

 

[guek]

Ugh, why is this thread suddenly about Bernie. Let it go.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

Before people get caught up in all the pearl clutching over this, it was Clinton's responses to these relatively benign scandals that was her major failing, not the acts themselves. Of course, a lot of that was incited by the incessant media attention and GOP smearing but she could have shown a lot more tact and humility up front when initially confronted by those issues rather than dismiss them.

It was the act themselves and her responses. Even if she had won, there was no way she would've been able to sell a different narrative.

 

[Frozenprince]

Dear fucking lord can we have a month long moratorium on these threads please.

I'd like fifteen minutes without this stupid ass slap fight being perpetuated anymore.

They both lost so make like Elsa already.

 

[guek]

It was the act themselves and her responses. Even if she had won, there was no way she would've been able to sell a different narrative.

A lot of the damage could have been mitigated though if Hillary was a better politician or just simply more superficially likeable

 

[legacyzero]

They let Bernie's people which included Cornel fucking West have a huge say on writing the party platform. Thats an olive branch.

No. It's not LOL

"Feel" - there's your problem right there.

So, your argument is to lie to people?

It's like my point sailed right over you LOL

Ugh, why is this thread suddenly about Bernie. Let it go.

The thread is LITERALLY about what happened leading up to her losing the election LOL.

It's like some people wanted Hillary to felate Sanders on stage and only then would the party be mended. Like taking a ton of his most important platform points and running with it wasn't enough.

How about campaigning in the states she lost in the Primary, like Wisconsin and Michigan?

Especially Wisconsin. I live in Wisconsin, and it very quickly turned to Trump country sadly. People just weren't feeling Hillary, and she did nothing.

 

[Father_Brain]

It seems pretty clear to me that Hillary was more concerned with winning over the Bernie or bust types, having adopted such a progressive platform and talking so forthrightly about a lot of progressive causes following the convention. But like I said, she was trying to sell the message to people who just weren't going to buy it from her.

This is... definitely not a widely held assessment of her general campaign strategy, from either Bernie supporters or Beltway press/pundit types in general, based on what I've seen. I've even seen some of the hardline anti-Bernie types agree that her strategy was focused on affluent suburban Republicans, rightly or wrongly. I honestly didn't even think this was controversial!

If you have more reporting or concrete information to back this up, I would appreciate it, because with all due respect, it strikes me as the exact opposite of what her campaign actually did.

EDIT: For example, from just a few minutes ago in coverage of GA-06, here's one of CNN's lead political reporters referring to her strategy as... focused on affluent suburban Republicans.

 

[xxracerxx]

How about campaigning in the states she lost in the Primary, like Wisconsin and Michigan?

Especially Wisconsin. I live in Wisconsin, and it very quickly turned to Trump country sadly. People just weren't feeling Hillary, and she did nothing.

I am not talking strategy here, just some people's opinion that Clinton didn't do enough to praise Sanders to the level that some think he should have been.

 

[Suikoguy]

It's like my point sailed right over you LOL.

Then what WAS your point?

I have a feeling everybody else read it the same way, it's not my reading skills, it's your communication skills.

 

[UFO]

How does it compare to this gem?

 

[xxracerxx]

How does it compare to this gem?

You mean the issue that they print as each candidate as the winner? Ask all those poor kids in third world countries who receive shirts for whoever doesn't win the Super Bowl?

 

[TheLaughingStock]

A lot of the damage could have been mitigated though if Hillary was a better politician or just simply more superficially likeable

I highly doubt it. Trump is a great salesman, but even he can't work miracles and change the minds of many Americans. Trump won, but a lot of the negatives and smears stuck to him like glue. Same would've happened with Hillary because there are elements of truth confined within the attacks against her record and her character. Her efforts to mitigate that narrative would've been immaterial even if she was better at selling BS as a politician.

 

[legacyzero]

Then what WAS your point?

I have a feeling everybody else read it the same way, it's not my reading skills, it's your communication skills.

No, you just straw-manned my point. Your original post was a straw-man. You literally dismissed the fact that people in that region were concerned with jobs, economy, and trade. Then you were like-

"AUTOMATION!"

 

[The Shadow]

I am a pretty big Hillary supporter on these boards but she could've done a better job going after the Bernie supporters. She just assumed that they would come to her side but clearly a big percentage of them never did. Millennial turn out wasnt that great and only about 57% voted for her. A large percentage voted third party. She lost whites by a record margin and the blame lies with her for not adjusting.

Bringing in the Bernie supporters would have brought in the millennial vote but it probably didn't cost her the election. What did is that she didn't even bother with swing voters. The problem with her campaign, like a lot of her supporters on this website, was that the feeling was the election was a shoe-in so why put in any effort on those things. Clinton has it in the bag, fuck the effort.

Bottom line is that it totally could have been a landslide election for her. It should have been. While a lot of people here just automatically blame the 'racist' vote, she needs to take her share of the blame. I mean, yeah, Trump fired up the racist base, but a lot of swing voters that voted for a black president over a white man TWICE, all of a sudden voted for Trump. I think that speaks volumes about her campaign, if these so called racist voters voted for a black dude twice, but wouldn't vote for her. Trump didn't just activate some hidden beepbeep racist attitude within them.

They voted for Trump after voting for Obama because she didn't give a fuck about them, so why should they give a fuck about her?

Ultimately both her and Obama gave Americans too much credit. They thought America wouldn't vote for a vile racist sexist piece of shit. They were wrong.

Obama was one of the Dems that told her she needed to adjust her campaign. I agree that he's a bit of an optimist, but for fuck sake, she ignored a lot of people.

 

[Torokil]

Every book based around the terrible Hillary campaign should have a chapter based on Fight Song, imo.

 

[Count Dookkake]

"Sharted" might have been a better title as it is the result of overconfidence and a hard push.

 

[The Technomancer]

No, you just straw-manned my point. Your original post was a straw-man. You literally dismissed the fact that people in that region were concerned with jobs, economy, and trade. Then you were like-

"AUTOMATION!"

Because just about every attempt to actually study this election finds the connection between economic concern and Trump voting is tenuous at best and outweighed by other factors. Like, at a certain point you need receipts

 

[legacyzero]

Because just about every attempt to actually study this election finds the connection between economic concern and Trump voting is tenuous at best and outweighed by other factors. Like, at a certain point you need receipts

Losing the majority of the Rust Best isn't receipt enough for you?

 

[CrazyDude]

Losing the majority of the Rust Best isn't receipt enough for you?

Correlation is not causation.

 

[The Technomancer]

Losing the majority of the Rust Best isn't receipt enough for you?

No?

https://www.thenation.com/article/fear-of-diversity-made-people-more-likely-to-vote-trump/

[Our analysis also shows that seeing racial diversity as a threat also helps to explain what motivated those voters who switched from voting for Barack Obama in 2012 to voting for Trump in 2016.

The CCAP data indicate that 9 percent of Obama 2012 voters switched to Trump in 2016, and about 5 percent of Romney 2012 voters defected from Trump by voting for Hillary Clinton, and 6 percent voted for another candidate. Perceiving growing racial diversity as a threat strongly predicts Obama to Trump vote switchers, and more positive attitudes towards diversity predict the probability that a Romney 2012 voter would defect from the Republican nominee in 2016

This isn't just about Republicans in general, the people who went from Obama to Trump are also explained by negative opinions of diversity! This is like the fourth study on this

Fears about immigration were also linked to Trump support. However, we find little evidence to support the idea that concerns about trade deals or a rigged system contributed significantly to a Trump victory. Neither the trade-policy baseline question nor a scale of questions about trade policy predicted Trump support.

Questions about whether the political system benefits wealthy elites predicted vote choice—but in the wrong direction. People who agreed that the system benefited powerful elites were more likely to reject Trump. Increasingly, class is simply not a meaningful dimension along which American politics is fought. In our regressions, income predicted support for McCain and Romney, but not Trump

 

[kirblar]

Losing the majority of the Rust Best isn't receipt enough for you?

white population density by county:

Here's an animated map looking only at counties that are 90/92/94/96/98% white:

And here again is that Obama/Romney->Clinton/Trump change map:

But sure, keep continuing to ignore that elephant in the room.

 

[aeolist]

and there's no way a positive universal economic message could have made up the tiny differences that lost her key states

it was all racism, 100% of it, therefore those people don't deserve jobs or health care

 

[aeolist]

the black people who voted for obama in '08 and '12 and didn't turn out for hillary were also racist btw

 

[xxracerxx]

it was all racism, 100% of it, therefore those people don't deserve jobs or health care

Trump's trying his hardest to make this happen.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Why is it only continue Clinton's approach or go Sanders?

Why not listen to the demo that always supports the dem party? Listen to black women. For once.

 

[Abounder]

Hillary wasted decades and billion$ of prep work only to coast to defeat, her stupid and lazy decision-making went against campaigning 101 which is just crazy stuff (gifting Republicans unprecedented amount of control). Not only did Hillary fly home every goddamn night like she was a Trump, but like already mentioned she skipped WI, had months of no press conferences, let Trump outhustle her on the trail, Mexico, and all forms of media, had half the battleground offices that '12 Obama did, invested in internet ads over traditional, ignored warning signs and advice from Bill, MI primary, Brexit, etc.

And oh yea, she earned all-time deplorable ratings and had an ongoing FBI investigation - it says a lot about the party that they risked the country on her...but I suppose few could predict just how terrible Hillary & Co. would campaign. These articles and books about her campaign will be lessons of what not to do.

 

[The Technomancer]

and there's no way a positive universal economic message could have made up the tiny differences that lost her key states

it was all racism, 100% of it, therefore those people don't deserve jobs or health care

This comes as a shocker to a lot of progressives but most conservatives prioritize differently than we do. How else does one explain decades of "voting against their best interests" unless they're all just "stupid"?

 

[legacyzero]

Correlation is not causation.

Sure. You're telling me that an entire democratic firewall flipped Red... because? I mean I'm not saying that Trade policy was the only thing that made people switch. Indies, Bernie-crats, etc could have also been the reason.

No?

https://www.thenation.com/article/fear-of-diversity-made-people-more-likely-to-vote-trump/



This isn't just about Republicans in general, the people who went from Obama to Trump are also explained by negative opinions of diversity! This is like the fourth study on this

white population density by county:

Here's an animated map looking only at counties that are 90/92/94/96/98% white:

And here again is that Obama/Romney->Clinton/Trump change map:


But sure, keep continuing to ignore that elephant in the room.

and that elephant is... WHITE PEOPLE.

So how do you plan on turning that strip of states blue again, Hmmm?

and there's no way a positive universal economic message could have made up the tiny differences that lost her key states

it was all racism, 100% of it, therefore those people don't deserve jobs or health care

the black people who voted for obama in '08 and '12 and didn't turn out for hillary were also racist btw

LOL Yeah I'm out. Cant work with this logic

EDIT: Unless you were being sarcastic of course

 

[ahoyhoy]

Why is it only continue Clinton's approach or go Sanders?

Why not listen to the demo that always supports the dem party? Listen to black women. For once.

They've gotta start threatening to stop voting Democratic or somehow multiply their numbers two or three times if they want to be listened to unfortunately.

 

[aeolist]

Why is it only continue Clinton's approach or go Sanders?

Why not listen to the demo that always supports the dem party? Listen to black women. For once.

e. that's as of today

 

[2Smashed4U]

Hillary wasted decades and billion$ of prep work only to coast to defeat, her stupid and lazy decision-making went against campaigning 101 which is just crazy stuff (gifting Republicans unprecedented amount of control). Not only did Hillary fly home every goddamn night like she was a Trump, but like already mentioned she skipped WI, had months of no press conferences, let Trump outhustle her on the trail, Mexico, and all forms of media, had half the battleground offices that '12 Obama did, invested in internet ads over traditional, ignored warning signs and advice from Bill, MI primary, Brexit, etc.

And oh yea, she earned all-time deplorable ratings and had an ongoing FBI investigation - it says a lot about the party that they risked the country on her...but I suppose few could predict just how terrible Hillary & Co. would campaign. These articles and books about her campaign will be lessons of what not to do.

what the hell does 90% of this even mean

 

[elrechazado]

Sure. You're telling me that an entire democratic firewall flipped Red... because? I mean I'm not saying that Trade policy was the only thing that made people switch. Indies, Bernie-crats, etc could have also been the reason.




and that elephant is... WHITE PEOPLE.

So how do you plan on turning that strip of states blue again, Hmmm?

By saying those people are pieces of shit for the four years, obviously.