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[jtb]

No one could have predicted just how shitty Hillary would campaign, or that she would ignore a number of warning signs and advice from even the goddamn president. It was hers to lose and only in the aftermath are we seeing just how stupid and lazy she was. There was no genius behind her strategy. The veteran got outworked by a birther rookie.

No one could have predicted a global nationalist turn of racism and xenophobia either.

Donald Trump can both be a complete idiot and a very formidable, savvy politician. (Or at least political candidate.) Are we just going to forget that he outmanuevered every Republican candidate - with fucking ease - and completed a hostile takeover of a major political party that is near unprecedented in American history?

that is not every politician

Yes it is. At least those who have been in power as long as the Clintons have.

(That's not a defense of their insularity or anything. It's just a reality, though. You don't maintain that kind of power for 25 years without twisting some arms, breaking eggs, etc. )

Also Dick Morris is precisely the reason why books (particularly the cottage industry of Clinton-gossip books) like these are so worthless.

 

[Isaac Otherworld]

Now Dick Morris is a reliable source and astute judge of character! Hopefully next we'll hear the real truth about Obama and Larry Sinclair.

Tons of outlets have reported on the Clinton's enemies list and those details match up wirh what we've seen reported in places like politico. Everyone notes how bizarre and vindictive their enemies list is, even taking inrmto account how it's natural to form alliances and rivals within the party.

 

[RedZaraki]

Never put forward a negative popularity candidate again.

 

[Dude Abides]

Tons of outlets have reported on the Clinton's enemies list and those details match up wirh what we've seen reported in places like politico. Everyone notes how bizarre and vindictive their enemies list is, even taking inrmto account how it's natural to form alliances and rivals within the party.

Lots of politicians have people they like and people they don't like. You'd have to suffer from a serious case of Clinton Derangement Syndrome to take anything Dick Morris says at face value.

 

[BotoxAgent]

The moment I heard Mook speak on TV, I immediately knew he was terrible. Ugh

 

[jtb]

Tons of outlets have reported on the Clinton's enemies list and those details match up wirh what we've seen reported in places like politico. Everyone notes how bizarre and vindictive their enemies list is, even taking inrmto account how it's natural to form alliances and rivals within the party.

The thing is, Clinton is such a private person that how would anyone actually know if she did? I guarantee you, I'm sure Huma and Bill did not give a fucking word for this book, ya know?

So if not them, then really you're just going to the cottage industry of Clinton gossipers with an axe to grind because the Clintons are such schmoozy power brokers with a circle of advisors and confidants so large that encompasses practically all of the Beltway at this point.

It's like taking "Game Change" at face value. Okay, but it doesn't change the fact that Halperin is literally just reporting boozed up tabloid gossip.

 

[aeolist]

hey that sounds a lot like what people here were saying about the entire campaign

what a clusterfuck

 

[jtb]

hey that sounds a lot like what people here were saying about the entire campaign

what a clusterfuck

as in Pod Save America Favreau?

 

[2Smashed4U]

The moment I heard Mook speak on TV, I immediately knew he was terrible. Ugh

I know it's petty, but just the way he looked made me worry.

He gave me this vibe kinda like a baseball team that brings in a lawyer to GM everything "by the numbers" and through advanced stats and then turns the team into complete shit because they didn't pay enough attention to what was actually happening on the field.

Mook's that guy. He's the Paul DePodesta of campaign managers.

 

[Isaac Otherworld]

Lots of politicians have people they like and people they don't like. You'd have to suffer from a serious case of Clinton Derangement Syndrome to take anything Dick Morris says at face value.

It's not just Morris who said that.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/01/hillary-clinton-hit-list-102067

And it's not just "people we like and people we dislike" its "people who's careers we will work to destroy within our party"

The thing is, Clinton is such a private person that how would anyone actually know if she did? I guarantee you, I'm sure Huma and Bill did not give a fucking word for this book, ya know?

So if not them, then really you're just going to the cottage industry of Clinton gossipers with an axe to grind because the Clintons are such schmoozy power brokers with a circle of advisors and confidants so large that encompasses practically all of the Beltway at this point.

It's like taking "Game Change" at face value. Okay, but it doesn't change the fact that Halperin is literally just reporting boozed up tabloid gossip.

Stuff like this is typically leaked from within the campaign deliberately. It was probably Ok'd by the Clinton's themselves to intimidate people who would think of running in the primary against her or endorsing someone other than he.

 

[aeolist]

as in Pod Save America Favreau?

also known for writing obama's speeches

 

[TheOfficeMut]

Is this recommended read? How accurate is it?

 

[jtb]

I know it's petty, but just the way he looked made me worry.

He gave me this vibe kinda like a baseball team that brings in a lawyer to GM everything "by the numbers" and through advanced stats and then turns the team into complete shit because they didn't pay enough attention to what was actually happening on the field.

Mook's that guy. He's the Paul DePodesta of campaign managers.

Well this is truly Hard Hitting Political Analysis. With a gut like yours, you should've been campaign manager!

also known for writing obama's speeches

Wait, what??? Seriously????

It's not just Morris who said that.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/01/hillary-clinton-hit-list-102067

And it's not just "people we like and people we dislike" its "people who's careers we will work to destroy within our party"

Did you even bother to check who happened to write that article? Hm, why does it happen to advance the exact same thesis?

Gossip journalism is fucking hackery. It's worthless garbage. There is literally nothing of value to be found in it.

 

[Abounder]

No one could have predicted a global nationalist turn of racism and xenophobia either.

Donald Trump can both be a complete idiot and a very formidable, savvy politician. (Or at least political candidate.) Are we just going to forget that he outmanuevered every Republican candidate - with fucking ease - and completed a hostile takeover of a major political party that is near unprecedented in American history?

There were warning signs in Brexit, growing wealth inequality, and MI primary. Hillary was risky even before that given her alltime low ratings and FBI investigation.

Agreed Trump is underrated and was great at utilizing the dumpster fire that is bipartisan politics though. And unlike Hillary didn't allow himself to get outworked on the trail/media.

All you can control is your own effort and judgment, and Hillary's campaigning was spectacularly shitty and indefensible.

 

[Chezzymann]

I cant re litagate all this again...

But one of them had pages and pages of policy online and the other had vague promises.

So yeah, you're wrong.

But the average person didn't know that, they just knew that hillary was always talking about how trump was unstable and had bad character and trump was talking about building the wall and banning muslims

 

[aeolist]

I know it's petty, but just the way he looked made me worry.

He gave me this vibe kinda like a baseball team that brings in a lawyer to GM everything "by the numbers" and through advanced stats and then turns the team into complete shit because they didn't pay enough attention to what was actually happening on the field.

Mook's that guy. He's the Paul DePodesta of campaign managers.

 

[OceanBlue]

Wait, what??? Seriously????

All of the people on their podcasting network are former Obama staffers.

 

[Karish]

as in Pod Save America Favreau?

Yes he was Obama's speechwriter for years.

 

[aeolist]

Wait, what??? Seriously????

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Favreau_(speechwriter)

 

[jtb]

(that was a joke)

There were warning signs in Brexit, growing wealth inequality, and MI primary. Hillary was risky even before that given her alltime low ratings and FBI investigation.

Agreed Trump is underrated and was great at utilizing the dumpster fire that is bipartisan politics though. And unlike Hillary didn't allow himself to get outworked on the trail/media.

All you can control is your own effort and judgment, and Hillary was spectacularly shitty.

I agree. Of course she could have done better. She was 70,000 votes away from being President. But then, you know, we also have to acknowledge was only 70,000 votes away.

I guess my point is: even if the result is black and white, the process that it takes to get there is always filled with shades of gray.

 

[Dude Abides]

It's not just Morris who said that.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/01/hillary-clinton-hit-list-102067

And it's not just "people we like and people we dislike" its "people who's careers we will work to destroy within our party"

Yes, I get it. Swallow Beltway gossip uncritically as long as it's about the conniving bitch who stole the Precious Nomination from God-Emperor Bernie.

 

[Cranster]

All this bickering just shows to me that the hate for Hillary was overblown and in the end the party and candidate whom empowered racist's and sexists everywhere won because voters who were either too young to remember the 2000 election or simply too arrogant to learn from it were basically sabotaging themselves by falling for false news and alt right propaganda. I'm not saying Hillary or her camapign made mistakes, but her "so called" scandals were nothing next to the runaway american tragedy of the Trump campaign.

 

[aeolist]

(that was a joke)



I agree. Of course she could have done better. She was 70,000 votes away from being President. But then, you know, we also have to acknowledge was only 70,000 votes away.

I guess my point is: even if the result is black and white, the process that it takes to get there is always filled with shades of gray.

it should have been a blowout. she was up against the most hated candidate of all time with all kinds of built-in advantages on the map and way more money. even a close defeat is fucking monumental.

 

[Isaac Otherworld]

Well this is truly Hard Hitting Political Analysis. With a gut like yours, you should've been campaign manager!



Wait, what??? Seriously????



Did you even bother to check who happened to write that article? Hm, why does it happen to advance the exact same thesis?

Gossip journalism is fucking hackery. It's worthless garbage. There is literally nothing of value to be found in it.

With many outlets including and especially Politico it is standard operating procedude to run stories by the campaign for comments and corrections before publication. That this story ran in politico is more or less confirmation that the Clinton camp confirmed this when asked

 

[2Smashed4U]

Yep. They fell in love with the numbers when evidence out in the field told them their projections were wrong.

Bill Clinton is a smart dude. I wish they had listened to him.

 

[IrishNinja]

Not what I said at all. I said that it can't be the ONLY platform, nor can we demand that it be the only focus of ANY campaign. We abandoned the working class and we paid for it. Like it or not.

yes, "abandoned" them by saving the auto industry, improving healthcare etc. the anti-union guy promised a return of jobs long gone & clearly that mattered when it came down to the wire, but this narrative is still bunk.

no one's saying social justice should be the ONLY platform, but when half the country doesn't vote, it's time someone actually tried running with it as a priority - and no, your boy didn't.

As for Minorities.. really? Bernie didn't work for them? Or he didn't APPEAL to them? What more did he need to do, exactly? Which of the two treated BLM protests with condescension again? Especially when marking them answer for their past? (I.E. Mass incarceration and "bring them to heel")

every berniebro was on about this while he wasn't getting that vote - because while it was rightful to knock hillary for being "owed" the nomination (even if she did win in a landslide), there's something pretty disturbing about these "allies" feeling sanders was likewise owed that vote, lest they be "low information voters".
there were a lot of interesting pieces at the time on why his pitch felt like snake oil, why his hometwon record with black communities/etc wasn't great, etc but given that it was quite a while ago & thoroughly doesn't matter now, the takeaway should be: white liberal "progressives" aren't owed shit by POC because as you've illustrated, issues of social justice shouldn't have any real priority, unless it's issues your candidate of choice decides should be enough to check that box for them.

 

[djkimothy]

All of the people on their podcasting network are former Obama staffers.

I think Jon Lovett was a Clinton campaign staffer. And Ana Marie Cox was a former MTV host, i think. But the other 3 were former obama staffers.

 

[jtb]

it should have been a blowout. she was up against the most hated candidate of all time with all kinds of built-in advantages on the map and way more money. even a close defeat is fucking monumental.

You can't have it both ways. She can't have built in advantages and also be a terrible candidate.

For example, why did she have so much money? Because the Clinton's are mega-fundraisers. Why did she have such a toxic relationship with Wall Street and elite money? Because she was in perpetual money-raising mode.

With many outlets including Politico it is standard operating procedude to run stories by the campaign for comments and corrections before publication. That this story ran in politico is more or less confirmation that the Clinton camp confirmed this when asked

Stop taking things you read in Politico at face value. It's beltway gossip. Both sides. All sides. But, at the end of the day, just low-level aides gossiping anonymously to reporters.

Yep. They fell in love with the numbers when evidence out in the field told them their projections were wrong.

Bill Clinton is a smart dude. I wish they had listened to him.

You should read up on the 2008 campaign.

If you love the gossip here, man... the way Bill Clinton single handedly torpedoed Hillary's bid in 08... the stuff of beltway legend.

Required reading for the Clinton-gossip gravy train: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/09/the-front-runner-s-fall/306944/

 

[OceanBlue]

I think Jon Lovett was a Clinton campaign staffer. And Ana Marie Cox was a former MTV host, i think. But the other 3 were former obama staffers.

I actually forgot about Ana Marie Cox (despite just listening to her podcast) but I thought Jon Lovett also was on the Obama staff. My bad.

 

[Isaac Otherworld]

You can't have it both ways. She can't have built in advantages and also be a terrible candidate.

For example, why did she have so much money? Because the Clinton's are mega-fundraisers. Why did she have such a toxic relationship with Wall Street and elite money? Because she was in perpetual money-raising mode.



Stop taking things you read in Politico at face value. It's beltway gossip. Both sides. All sides. But, at the end of the day, just low-level aides gossiping anonymously to reporters.

Funny how you guys have gone from "its no big deal. Everyone does it." To "the LYING PRESS" so quickly.

I didnt even say it was all that bad, just that many outlets from CNN and Politico have reported on the same thing. The worst thing I said was I said is that comes off as vindictive. But I also said it was a good show force before the primary from their perspective.

 

[jtb]

Funny how you guys have gone from "its no big deal. Everyone does it." To "the LYING PRESS" so quickly.

I didnt even say it was all that bad, just that many outlets from CNN and Politico have reported on the same thing. The worst thing I said was I said is that comes off as vindictive. But I also said it was a good show force before the primary from their perspective.

They're not mutually exclusive.

And I never said the press lied. No, they're repeating the gossip their anonymous sources tell them. Sources that, because this is politics and everyone is craven and has their own personal, political and partisan incentives, always always always have ulterior motives. Are you really trying to claim that we should be taking the word of anonymous beltway sources as gospel?

Please don't put scare quotes around words to willfully misread words I never wrote when the control-F function still works on most modern browsers.

 

[Kin5290]

I actually forgot about Ana Marie Cox (despite just listening to her podcast) but I thought Jon Lovett also was on the Obama staff. My bad.

Lovett went over to the Obama speechwriting team after Clinton's primary bid failed.

I'm surprised that Faverau was, however briefly, involved in the Clinton speechwriting team. Don't think he ever mentioned or even alluded to it on the podcast.

 

[El_Tiguere]

Lol. "Anti-war voice for peace" Tulsi wants to bomb the shit out of Muslims.

https://twitter.com/tulsigabbard/status/649458891168714752?lang=en

Fucking clown shoes.

Nice straw man there. Since when does bombing Al-Qaeda equate to hating Muslims? since when does calling out hypocrisy in a war against terrorism (where we are explicitly and implicitly supporting the wrong ass side) equate to her being an islamophobic warmonger? You people do quite a bit of reaching when your authorities instruct you to swallow the war pill.

 

[Cipherr]

every berniebro was on about this while he wasn't getting that vote - because while it was rightful to knock hillary for being "owed" the nomination (even if she did win in a landslide), there's something pretty disturbing about these "allies" feeling sanders was likewise owed that vote, lest they be "low information voters".
there were a lot of interesting pieces at the time on why his pitch felt like snake oil, why his hometwon record with black communities/etc wasn't great, etc but given that it was quite a while ago & thoroughly doesn't matter now, the takeaway should be: white liberal "progressives" aren't owed shit by POC because as you've illustrated, issues of social justice shouldn't have any real priority, unless it's issues your candidate of choice decides should be enough to check that box for them.

Preach

 

[Dude Abides]

Nice straw man there. Since when does bombing Al-Qaeda equate to hating Muslims? since when does calling out hypocrisy in a war against terrorism (where we are explicitly and implicitly supporting the wrong ass side) equate to her being an islamophobic warmonger? You people do quite a bit of reaching when your authorities instruct you to swallow the war pill.

I see. You're not anti-war, you just want to kill these Muslims over here, not those Muslims over there. Like Tulsi does. I appreciate the clarification.

 

[El_Tiguere]

I see. You're not anti-war, you just want to kill these Muslims over here, not those Muslims over there. Like Tulsi does. I appreciate the clarification.

You mean like I want to kill ISIS and not other Muslims that have nothing to do with terrorism? indeed. You don't want to differentiate the two? how come? why wouldn't you want to weaken terrorists while protecting other Muslims? again... reaching.

 

[foxuzamaki]

I'm still uncontrollably angry at my country

.

 

[Dude Abides]

You mean like I want to kill ISIS and not other Muslims that have nothing to do with terrorism? indeed. You don't want to differentiate the two? how come? why wouldn't you want to weaken terrorists while protecting other Muslims? again... reaching.

Isis, or, you know, civilians in Hama, whatever. I thought you were pretending to be a leftist? Don't pretend to be against beating the war drum when you're happy to pound it as loud as anyone if The Leader says so.

 

[Cybit]

You can't have it both ways. She can't have built in advantages and also be a terrible candidate.

For example, why did she have so much money? Because the Clinton's are mega-fundraisers. Why did she have such a toxic relationship with Wall Street and elite money? Because she was in perpetual money-raising mode.

Stop taking things you read in Politico at face value. It's beltway gossip. Both sides. All sides. But, at the end of the day, just low-level aides gossiping anonymously to reporters.

You should read up on the 2008 campaign.

If you love the gossip here, man... the way Bill Clinton single handedly torpedoed Hillary's bid in 08... the stuff of beltway legend.

Required reading for the Clinton-gossip gravy train: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/09/the-front-runner-s-fall/306944/

These authors are also the folks who wrote the very glowing coverage of Clinton for their 2014 book about her recovery and victories. They have sources, and Clinton is definitely their source for a good chunk of this if you read the book. They started this book planning to finish their story about the phoenix like rise of Clinton from 2008 to the presidency in 2016. (and state as much outright)

If you haven't actually read the book or know anything about the other books the author has done, you probably shouldn't be commenting about the veracity of the book.

 

[jtb]

These authors are also the folks who wrote the very glowing coverage of Clinton for their 2014 book about her recovery and victories. They have sources, and Clinton is definitely their source for a good chunk of this if you read the book. They started this book planning to finish their story about the phoenix like rise of Clinton from 2008 to the presidency in 2016. (and state as much outright)

If you haven't actually read the book or know anything about the other books the author has done, you probably shouldn't be commenting about the veracity of the book.

I've already got it checked out from the library. I'm gonna read it regardless.

I've never been a particularly huge Jon Allen fan. Just because he's not a Halperin-level sycophantic hack (I mean, jesus - who is???) doesn't make him not your average beltway access journalist.

Of course he has sources. My point is that whenever you enter the Clinton zone, even moreso than your usual access journalism gossip, everyone's got ulterior motives.In 2014, that was to prop up Hillary (because everyone was angling for a job in the white house). In 2017, that's to point the finger of blame at literally everybody except for themselves. Again, so they can polish up their resumes and stay employed.

It's a beltway tradition. It's the Clinton Circle of Life.

 

[Black_Sun]

yes, "abandoned" them by saving the auto industry, improving healthcare etc. the anti-union guy promised a return of jobs long gone & clearly that mattered when it came down to the wire, but this narrative is still bunk.

no one's saying social justice should be the ONLY platform, but when half the country doesn't vote, it's time someone actually tried running with it as a priority - and no, your boy didn't.



every berniebro was on about this while he wasn't getting that vote - because while it was rightful to knock hillary for being "owed" the nomination (even if she did win in a landslide), there's something pretty disturbing about these "allies" feeling sanders was likewise owed that vote, lest they be "low information voters".
there were a lot of interesting pieces at the time on why his pitch felt like snake oil, why his hometwon record with black communities/etc wasn't great, etc but given that it was quite a while ago & thoroughly doesn't matter now, the takeaway should be: white liberal "progressives" aren't owed shit by POC because as you've illustrated, issues of social justice shouldn't have any real priority, unless it's issues your candidate of choice decides should be enough to check that box for them.

We did abandon them. NAFTA, TPP, GATA, the growing income inequality, the dismantling of the New Deal regulations pushed even by Democrats like Bill Clinton, austerity economics, giving more power to corporations, the slow death of unions etc,

These are all things the Dems have a hand in.

Yeah, they did some good stuff too but the middle class is dying

 

[jtb]

(I dunno if you guys can tell, but I really don't like 1. Clinton books, 2. Beltway access journalism. Hillary's such a boring person! That's her problem!)

 

[IrishNinja]

We did abandon them. NAFTA, TPP, GATA, the growing income inequality, the dismantling of the New Deal regulations pushed even by Democrats like Bill Clinton, austerity economics, giving more power to corporations, the slow death of unions etc,

These are all things the Dems have a hand in.

Yeah, they did some good stuff too but the middle class is dying

i agree with a great deal of that - unions, new deal programs, horrible income inequality etc - but there's a lot here (free trade, automation etc) that's inevitable and while the GOP is racing towards ditching them quicker, barring real conversations on basic income, universal health care etc i don't think anyone's making a real effort to save them.

as an aside, i know bernie's platform had a couple things but i personally never understood he push on college tuition as a priority, it wouldn't even be in my top 10 for addressing this issue.

 

[aeolist]

i agree with a great deal of that - unions, new deal programs, horrible income inequality etc - but there's a lot here (free trade, automation etc) that's inevitable and while the GOP is racing towards ditching them quicker, barring real conversations on basic income, universal health care etc i don't think anyone's making a real effort to save them.

as an aside, i know bernie's platform had a couple things but i personally never understood he push on college tuition as a priority, it wouldn't even be in my top 10 for addressing this issue.

free trade may be "inevitable" but the way we've gone about it isn't. TPP for example contained a ton of language that basically forced the DMCA (or worse) on signatories in order to prop up american intellectual property. that benefits a very small and very rich portion of the country.

out free trade deals are rife with that shit. it's more corporate handouts than anything.

 

[Isaac Otherworld]

free trade may be "inevitable" but the way we've gone about it isn't. TPP for example contained a ton of language that basically forced the DMCA (or worse) on signatories in order to prop up american intellectual property. that benefits a very small and very rich portion of the country.

out free trade deals are rife with that shit. it's more corporate handouts than anything.

TPP also gave 12 year monopolies on drugs for pharmaceutical companies which if you've paid attention to the shit going on with drug companies jacking up rated by 1000-4000% you know how fucking disastrous that is for the public at large.

 

[kirblar]

TPP also gave 12 year monopolies on drugs for pharmaceutical companies which if you've paid attention to the shit going on with drug companies jacking up rated by 1000-4000% you know how fucking disastrous that is for the public at large.

The Pharmaceutical companies cornering markets and jacking up prices are not the pharmaceutical companies that are spending massive amounts of money on R&D (and thus are actually receiving patents.)

 

[EatinOlives]

The thing is neither was Trump. His words came off clearly. He said they let him do it.

(It's definitely sleazy and creepy but it doesn't hold up under scrutiny.)

Huh? That's not what he meant by "they just let you do it"

 

[Isaac Otherworld]

The Pharmaceutical companies cornering markets and jacking up prices are not the pharmaceutical companies that are spending massive amounts of money on R&D (and thus are actually receiving patents.)

There is absolutely no need to jack up the patent length to 12 years unless your goal is to increase the already insane cost of drug prices in the U.S. Upping the patent duration will kill people in the name of profits for pharmaceutical companies with absolutely no upside unless you happen to be a shareholder.

 

[Teletraan1]

I said this before the election but I think the constant stream of issues that trump had just got piled up and ignored. Hillary had a few key things that people kept harping on over and over and over. With Trump it was all noise, every day a new scandal, couldn't even focus on anything to attack because he was saying/doing crazy shit every day. Much easier to focus on one or two issues for a political campaign then having an ever moving target of nonsense.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

There is absolutely no need to jack up the patent length to 12 years unless your goal is to increase the already insane cost of drug prices in the U.S. Upping the patent duration will kill people in the name of profits for pharmaceutical companies with absolutely no upside unless you happen to be a shareholder.

There is also absolutely no need to extend US-style patent protection for drugs to other nations using trade agreements like TPP unless you are interested in killing people in other nations too in order to prop up pharmaceutical company profits.

Just another day in Hillary's "Gold Standard" trade agreement negotiations apparently. The Europeans weren't dumb, they were all in the streets protesting against the TPIP. It's a shame the Pacific Rim nations were so weak and helpless when America showed up to ram lifetime + 75 years copyright and extended patent protection for drugs down their throats. TPP shouldn't ever have reached the ratification stage in the first place.