• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

NYT: Trump Used Legally Dubious Method to Avoid Paying Taxes

Status
Not open for further replies.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/01/us/politics/donald-trump-tax.html

This is a new follow up to the story from earlier in the month.

But newly obtained documents show that in the early 1990s, as he scrambled to stave off financial ruin, Mr. Trump avoided reporting hundreds of millions of dollars in taxable income by using a tax avoidance maneuver so legally dubious his own lawyers advised him that the Internal Revenue Service would likely declare it improper if he were audited.

Thanks to this one maneuver — which was later outlawed by Congress — Mr. Trump potentially escaped paying tens of millions of dollars in federal personal income taxes. It is impossible to know for sure because Mr. Trump has declined to release his tax returns, or even a summary of his returns, breaking a practice followed by every Republican and Democratic presidential candidate for more than four decades.

Tax experts who reviewed the newly obtained documents for The New York Times said Mr. Trump’s tax avoidance maneuver, conjured from ambiguous provisions of highly technical tax court rulings, clearly pushed the edge of the envelope of what tax laws permitted at the time. “Whatever loophole existed was not ‘exploited’ here, but stretched beyond any recognition,” said Steven M. Rosenthal, a senior fellow at the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center who helped draft tax legislation in the early 1990s

“Your e-mail suggests either a fundamental misunderstanding or an intentional misreading of the law,” Hope Hicks, Mr. Trump’s spokeswoman, said in a statement. “Your thesis is a criticism, not just of Mr. Trump, but of all taxpayers who take the time and spend the money to try to comply with the dizzyingly complex and ambiguous tax laws without paying more tax than they owe. Mr. Trump does not think that taxpayers should file returns that resolve all doubt in favor of the I.R.S. And any tax experts that you have consulted are engaged in pure speculation. There is no news here.”

Mr. Trump financed his three Atlantic City gambling resorts with $1.3 billion in debt, most of it in the form of high interest junk bonds. By late 1990, after months of escalating operating losses, New Jersey casino regulators were warning that “a complete financial collapse of the Trump Organization was not out of the question.” By 1992, all three casinos had filed for bankruptcy and bondholders were ultimately forced to forgive hundreds of millions of dollars in debt to salvage at least part of their investment

A lot of tax mumbo jumbo, but NYT continues to dig.

It is only Monday, and between this, the Trump email/document destruction, and then possible Russian ties being reported in a single day, I feel this week will not be kind to him.

Let it burn.
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
Tax avoidance scheme is something that *every* big company and their mothers do in this world such as Apple, Facebook, Google, etc etc etc so although it doesn't mean that it absolves Trump, for me personally stuff like this just lack the 'oomph' to it since everybody else is doing it anyways and none give a shit about it and people keep buying stuff from them anyways :/
 

Madness

Member
No shit. He has admitted as such since day one. Pretty much every billionaire, rich corporation is using legally dubious methods to evade paying proper taxes. Burger King decided to buy Tim Hortons and become a canadian company to avoid taxes.
 

CHC

Member
I mean, yeah, no shit. I feel like the endgame has shifted now to trying to get Trump in legal hot water, because two things are a given at this point:

a) His support has bottomed out. Those that have not jumped ship now will never do so, and are for all intents and purposes completely insulated from and impervious to any negative news on Trump, regardless of the proof.

b) Trump will lose the election on Tuesday. The race is over.
 

Audioboxer

Member
Unfortunately this is one area where he is right to mock Clinton. Her apparent comments to block tax loopholes and complete lack of action for however long she has been in government are telling.

The elite literally live off a different set of rules from the working class. Good luck wishing for it to change as all the corporations are in the pockets of the politicians and vice versa.

None of them truly give a shit about going after Google and Apple because they're all best buddies. The consumers don't care about the corporations doing it as they produce the shiny things the consumers like to buy. So you've got Trump put forward to take the fall for the scummy side of politics and business laws. As I said it's one area where I will say to get up in arms over Trump is to miss the ocean behind him.
 
The mental gymnastics I see on Facebook over this to say that Trump is a genius and good businessman while still blaming "welfare queens" and drug addicts for cheating the system...
 
Tax avoidance scheme is something that *every* big company and their mothers do in this world such as Apple, Facebook, Google, etc etc etc so although it doesn't mean that it absolves Trump, for me personally stuff like this just lack the 'oomph' to it since everybody else is doing it anyways and none give a shit about it and people keep buying stuff from them anyways :/

you need to realize that being a suit at a large company and running for president and commander in chief of the largest and most powerful country/military on earth are two very different things. yes business is business but the sin of that changes heavily on your role and what role you aim for
 
Unfortunately this is one area where he is right to mock Clinton. Her apparent comments to block tax loopholes and complete lack of action for however long she has been in government are telling.

The elite literally live off a different set of rules from the working class. Good luck wishing for it to change as all the corporations are in the pockets of the politicians and vice versa.
lol, you didn't read this article, did you?
In any event, Mr. Trump can no longer benefit from the same maneuver. Just as Congress acted in 1993 to ban stock-for-debt swaps by corporations, it acted in 2004 to ban equity-for-debt swaps by partnerships.

Among the members of Congress who voted to finally close the loophole: Senator Hillary Clinton of New York.
 

Audioboxer

Member
Err...look at the comment above yours?

lol, you didn't read this article, did you?

After how long? And good luck with this somehow meaning drastic change that stops all tax avoidance. I've lived under the UK government rattling on for years about clamping down on corporate tax avoidance and supposed bills they've put in place to get companies like Amazon who pay 5% of what they're actually suppose to.
 

Steel

Banned
Tax avoidance scheme is something that *every* big company and their mothers do in this world such as Apple, Facebook, Google, etc etc etc so although it doesn't mean that it absolves Trump, for me personally stuff like this just lack the 'oomph' to it since everybody else is doing it anyways and none give a shit about it and people keep buying stuff from them anyways :/

Well, I'd agree with you, but then in Trump's specific case he's on record multiple times complaining about how useless people who don't pay taxes are.

After how long? And good luck with this somehow meaning drastic change that stops all tax avoidance. I've lived under the UK government rattling on for years about clamping down on corporate tax avoidance and supposed bills they've put in place to get companies like Amazon who pay 5% of what they're actually suppose to.

She's voted to close tax loop holes at every opportunity before that. It's not her fault if it doesn't pass.
 

tuxfool

Banned
After how long? And good luck with this somehow meaning drastic change that stops all tax avoidance. I've lived under the UK government rattling on for years about clamping down on corporate tax avoidance and supposed bills they've put in place to get companies like Amazon who pay 5% of what they're actually suppose to.

The assertion is that she did nothing. She clearly did something. This was in 2004, she was a Senator for 3 years by then.
 
After how long? And good luck with this somehow meaning drastic change that stops all tax avoidance. I've lived under the UK government rattling on for years about clamping down on corporate tax avoidance and supposed bills they've put in place to get companies like Amazon who pay 5% of what they're actually suppose to.

Don't trip backing up there bud lol. How fucking long, Jesus Christ what a response.
 

Audioboxer

Member
Well, I'd agree with you, but then in Trump's specific case he's on record multiple times complaining about how useless people who don't pay taxes are.



She's voted to close tax loop holes at every opportunity before that. It's not her fault if it doesn't pass.

The assertion is that she did nothing. She clearly did something.

Well lets hope as president that supposed determination to close loopholes manifests into results considering she'll be in a position of greater power than ever before. Don't get your hopes up.
 
After how long? And good luck with this somehow meaning drastic change that stops all tax avoidance.
Do you understand how government works? You seem to have the same failing as Trump on this matter. She was a lone Senator from New York at the time, not a dictator. There were 99 other people in the Senate, 435 people in the House, and a Republican president at the time to boot, who all have to work together to get stuff done. No duh she couldn't get whatever the hell she wanted done, and it took time and effort to accomplish. That's how our government works. It's slow, it sucks some time, and it involves a lot of compromise with people who strongly disagree with you further slowing things down, but you can nonetheless get things accomplished, such as she did. I don't understand what point you think you have, but it's nonsense.

Like... I don't think you know what you're arguing for here. You don't want a world where one Senator can get whatever the hell they want passed, even when everyone else may be against them. That would suck, and be ripe for abuse. Thus the system we have, and when you have to compromise with 535 other people, things are going to take some time and there will be lots of knockbacks and hard work to get anything done. How any of that is solely on the shoulders of one person is beyond me.
 

ISOM

Member
It seems like everyday there is a thread about Trump doing or have done something illegal and no charges are brought. It's like what is the point of all these articles if nothing happens.
 
After how long? And good luck with this somehow meaning drastic change that stops all tax avoidance. I've lived under the UK government rattling on for years about clamping down on corporate tax avoidance and supposed bills they've put in place to get companies like Amazon who pay 5% of what they're actually suppose to.

She was a senator. She got one vote out of 50. Are you seriously faulting her for not closing all tax loopholes? She voted to close this one, and probably others. If you're looking for a huge overhaul of the tax code, that was beyond her power as a senator and will remain beyond her power as president.

As for Trump, he's a moron. I wonder how much of this he even understood. Not that I'm saying he's guilt-free; if his accountants told him "we're going to do something that might technically be illegal...", I'm sure he'd say "do it".
 

tuxfool

Banned
Well lets hope as president that supposed determination to close loopholes manifests into results considering she'll be in a position of greater power than ever before. Don't get your hopes up.

Yes, Great power, with an obstructionist House and possibly Senate...
 

Steel

Banned
Well lets hope as president that supposed determination to close loopholes manifests into results considering she'll be in a position of greater power than ever before. Don't get your hopes up.

With Congress likely in Republican hands, I'm definitely not getting my hopes up. But her record makes it pretty clear she'd close loopholes if she could wave a wand and get it done. But that's not how divided government works.
 
It seems like everyday there is a thread about Trump doing or have done something illegal and no charges are brought. It's like what is the point of all these articles if nothing happens.

That he won't become President. I think that's a good goal.
 

Audioboxer

Member
It seems like everyday there is a thread about Trump doing or have done something illegal and no charges are brought. It's like what is the point of all these articles if nothing happens.

Tax avoidance isn't illegal, which is precisely the problem.

As for everyone else going gung-ho as I would expect. I await great change on the front of avoidance then in the years to come. You're all clearly more optimistic than I am.
 

Steel

Banned
Tax avoidance isn't illegal, which is precisely the problem.

As for everyone else going gung-ho as I would expect. I await great change on the front of avoidance then in the years to come. You're all clearly more optimistic than I am.

You obviously didn't read people's posts if that's the impression you're getting. The president does not have the power to unilaterally change the tax code. They only get to veto shit that Congress puts out. Congress isn't flipping in this election.
 
Well lets hope as president that supposed determination to close loopholes manifests into results considering she'll be in a position of greater power than ever before. Don't get your hopes up.

So I assume if loopholes DONT get closed you will be smart enough to recognize it will be due to an obstructionist GOP House that doesn't want Hillary to get anything successfully passed, right?

Like I assume you wouldn't be the kind of guy who blames the gridlock of the last 6 years on Obama when it was the GOP House that was so blatantly partisan that they threatened to default the goddamn country if Democrats didn't agree to defacfo repeal Obamacare through Budget defunding, right?

Tax avoidance isn't illegal, which is precisely the problem.

As for everyone else going gung-ho as I would expect. I await great change on the front of avoidance then in the years to come. You're all clearly more optimistic than I am.

We are optimistic about two possibilities:

1) Dems getting lucky enough to take back the House, then nuking the filibuster to start getting tons of important shit passed for at least 2 years.

2) Dems gaining enough seats in the house that at the very least Paul Ryan will have to scrap the hastert rule in order to protect his speakership.
 

Audioboxer

Member
You obviously didn't read people's posts if that's the impression you're getting. The president does not have the power to unilaterally change the tax code. They only get to veto shit that Congress puts out.

So the tax code and loopholes government created in the first place are now held hostage because government won't actually be able to fix it? Yup. Sounds like what the UK government tries to say whilst making promise about "clamping down" every election cycle to get the peoples blood pumping.

I think the correct word is gullible when we're discussing millionaire elites who are in bed with the corporate world as let's face it, who wants to go after Apple, Google and Amazon and piss in their cornflakes profits?
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Funny how none of his "very smart" successful business deals involves success, invention, innovation or sustained growth. Just wasting other peoples money and dodging the consequences.
 

Steel

Banned
So the tax code and loopholes government created in the first place are now held hostage because government won't actually be able to fix it. Yup. Sounds like what the UK government tries to say whilst making promise about "clamping down" every election cycle to get the peoples blood pumping.

I think the correct word is gullible when we're discussing millionaire elites who are in bed with the corporate world as let's face it, who wants to go after Apple, Google and Amazon and piss in their cornflakes profits?

UK and U.S. political systems are not the same at all. Do I really need to spell out how bad the tea party is in congress right now? Like, they have literally pissed in the stock market's cornflakes multiple times just to shut down the government over repealing Obamacare.
 

hawk2025

Member
After how long? And good luck with this somehow meaning drastic change that stops all tax avoidance. I've lived under the UK government rattling on for years about clamping down on corporate tax avoidance and supposed bills they've put in place to get companies like Amazon who pay 5% of what they're actually suppose to.


Bro, take the L.

You didn't read the article, and that's ok.
 
So the tax code and loopholes government created in the first place are now held hostage because government won't actually be able to fix it? Yup. Sounds like what the UK government tries to say whilst making promise about "clamping down" every election cycle to get the peoples blood pumping.

I think the correct word is gullible when we're discussing millionaire elites who are in bed with the corporate world as let's face it, who wants to go after Apple, Google and Amazon and piss in their cornflakes profits?

You seem to not get how my country works so I guess I'm going to have to slowly walk you through it:

POTUS controls the executive branch of the Federal government, which holds the power to enforce existing laws, veto bills that pass congress (or sign them into law), and nominate judges to SCOTUS and Cirtcuit courts.

The passing, repealing and amending of laws is controlled by the legislative branch, which at the federal level consists of the Senate (that Democrats will likely take back) and the House of Representatives (which due to gerrymandering will require a massive landslide for Dems to somehow win).

In order for the tax code to be amended, it would need to first pass either the Senate or House, then get passed by the other branch of congress, then get signed into law by POTUS.

If a GOP congress wants to deny Hillary the accomplishment of closing a tax loophole, then all they have to do is just refuse to even put such a tax code change up to a vote even if the Senate has already passed said change. In such a scenario, Hillary would have no legal way of getting that tax change ready to be signed unless somehow the Supreme Court rules that the House has no choice but to put it up to a vote.
 

Audioboxer

Member
UK and U.S. political systems are not the same at all. Do I really need to spell out how bad the tea party is in congress right now? Like, they have literally pissed in the stock market's cornflakes multiple times just to shut down the government over repealing Obamacare.

I understand that but the same ire and disaste for western governments pandering to big corporations to the point of allowing them off with taxes knows no boundaries. Heck our former PM was caught up in the Panama scandal.

It's cute people actually have faith in their politicians on this matter. It's one where I see zero evidence across the pond of any rhetoric about closing tax avoidance loopholes to be a load of voter hype which dies down after an election and goes back to business as usual.

Bro, take the L.

You didn't read the article, and that's ok.

Take the L? Are we on a playground here?
 

TheOMan

Tagged as I see fit
Well lets hope as president that supposed determination to close loopholes manifests into results considering she'll be in a position of greater power than ever before. Don't get your hopes up.

Your concern trolling in this thread is not a good look. Don't take what Trump says about Hillary at face value.
 

hawk2025

Member
I understand that but the same ire and disaste for western governments pandering to big corporations to the point of allowing them off with taxes knows no boundaries. Heck our former PM was caught up in the Panama scandal.

It's cute people actually have faith in their politicians on this matter. It's one where I see zero evidence across the pond of any rhetoric about closing tax avoidance loopholes to be a load of voter hype which dies down after an election and goes back to business as usual.



Take the L? Are we on a playground here?

I suppose not.

Playgrounds usually have the goalposts firmly affixed to the ground.
 

Audioboxer

Member
Your concern trolling in this thread is not a good look. Don't take what Trump says about Hillary at face value.

Take the L, concern trolling, what is next? I assume some are furiously going through my post history to try and clutch at any support for Trump. I'm guessing the realisation that my feelings about Trump shoot that down that is why we just have to revert to things like we have.

Lets leave at at that. Unfortunately for those who seriously disliked what I had to say I'll continue to be incredibly dismissive, object to and mock government and government officials feigning concern about tax avoidance when they all have so much invested in keeping corporations happy if they aren't actively engaged in tax avoidance themselves (Trump). The elite and the rich do not play by the same rules as we do and that is the real problem here, and it has been for ages whilst governments tell us they'll sort it out.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Take the L, concern trolling, what is next? I assume some are furiously going through my post history to try and clutch at any support for Trump. I'm guessing the realisation that my feelings about Trump shoot that down that is why we just have to revert to things like we have.

Lets leave at at that. Unfortunately for those who seriously disliked what I had to say I'll continue to be incredibly dismissive, object to and mock government and government officials feigning concern about tax avoidance when they all have so much invested in keeping corporations happy if they aren't actively engaged in tax avoidance themselves (Trump).

No they're mocking your poor grasp of how government works.
 

Ihyll

Junior Member
From the NY Times

Donald J. Trump proudly acknowledges he did not pay a dime in federal income taxes for years on end. He insists he merely exploited tax loopholes legally available to any billionaire — loopholes he says Hillary Clinton failed to close during her years in the United States Senate. “Why didn’t she ever try to change those laws so I couldn’t use them?” Mr. Trump asked during a campaign rally last month.

Thanks to this one maneuver, which was later outlawed by Congress, Mr. Trump potentially escaped paying tens of millions of dollars in federal personal income taxes. It is impossible to know for sure because Mr. Trump has declined to release his tax returns, or even a summary of his returns, breaking a practice followed by every Republican and Democratic presidential candidate for more than four decades.

Among the members of Congress who voted to finally close the loophole: Senator Hillary Clinton of New York

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/01/u...nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share&_r=0

Trump kept saying during the debates that Clinton didn't do anything to stop him from using loopholes so he could avoid paying taxes ...turns out she actually voted for the bill to close the loophole he used.

But guys let's focus on the real issues like her emails and Benghazi, instead of examining her voting record in the Senate that might show how she has been fighting for the middle class, women's rights and for single payer since she was a first lady.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom