Support NeoGAF

[NyMartin90]

US will help bring Turkey coup plotters to justice: Obama
AFP 47 minutes ago


https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-help-bring-turkey-coup-plotters-justice-obama-065658063.html

Hangzhou (China) (AFP) - The United States is committed to bringing the perpetrators of the attempted coup against Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan to justice, President Barack Obama said Sunday.

Ankara accuses US-based cleric Fethullah Gulen of being behind the July uprising.

At talks with Erdogan on the sidelines of the G20 summit, Obama said: "We will make sure that those who carried out these activities are brought to justice."

Tensions between the two NATO allies have risen sharply since the failed coup attempt against Erdogan on July 15, with Ankara launching a wide-ranging crackdown and demanding that the US extradite Gulen.

An exiled former imam living in the eastern state of Pennsylvania, Gulen strongly denies any involvement with the bid to overthrow Erdogan.

The dispute has soured public perceptions of the United States in Turkey and risks undermining a deep security relationship.

US officials insist they will extradite Gulen if Turkey can present proof he was actually involved.

The meeting in Hangzhou was the two leaders' first face-to-face encounter since the coup attempt.

Obama said the US was committed to "investigating and bringing the perpetrators of these illegal actions to justice" and assured Erdogan of American cooperation with Turkish authorities.

Since July, Ankara has detained, removed, or arrested tens of thousands of people within the judiciary, military, education system and police force for alleged links to Gulen's movement or the coup itself.

US-Turkey tensions have also been strained by Turkey's bombing of Kurdish positions in northern Syria.

The targets included Kurdish groups that are backed by Washington and seen by it as integral to the fight against the Islamic State group.

Ankara accuses them of being in league with the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), a group which has claimed responsibility for deadly attacks inside Turkey.

This is interesting for the Obama Administration, they've been trying to regain influence in Turkey since the coup first with Biden's visit, warnings to the Kurdish forces in support of the Turkish Offensive in Syria and now this.

The body language of Biden in his visit last month speaks volumes where he "apologized" to Turkey and President Erdogan.

Also this image from G20 speaks volumes about Erdogan's new relationship with Russia, with Russia being the first country he visited after the coup.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Kind of have to say things like that, but I don't see the US extraditing Gulen since Turkey simply doesn't have the proof. If they did, they would have shown it by now.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Doesn't sound like they are giving in completely.

US officials insist they will extradite Gulen if Turkey can present proof he was actually involved.

The bolded is a very important point. I doubt Turkey will be able to find/manufacture sufficient proof

 

[2MF]

Fuck Erdogan and anyone who helps him.

 

[EmiPrime]

US officials insist they will extradite Gulen if Turkey can present proof he was actually involved.

I thought that has always been their stance. Seems like a wowitsnothing.gif development so Erdogan can feel like a big shot.

 

[Zubz]

I thought that has always been their stance. Seems like a wowitsnothing.gif development so Erdogan can feel like a big shot.

Yeah; the title took me aback, but this is a meaningless gesture Obama made explicitly to keep Erdogan from acting up while simultaneously making it under a condition that'll never be met.

 

[Oriel]

Heh, just like how the US brought the Egyptian coup plotters to justice? Oh wait, they actually succeeded in their goal of overthrowing Morsi. Had the Turkish plotters prevailed Obama would have been in Ankara a few weeks later kissing the asses of the new leadership.

 

[TestOfTide]

I get that it would unfortunately empower Russia, but US and other NATO allies need to start considering the possibility that it's no longer worth it to have Turkey as an ally.

 

[Stereogatari]

Kind of have to say things like that, but I don't see the US extraditing Gulen since Turkey simply doesn't have the proof. If they did, they would have shown it by now.

Proof proof. What exact proof are you people looking for? Even if there was the type of proof you want, you'll just dismiss it as Turkish propaganda.

Everyone in Turkey, of all political persuasions, are near unanimous that Gulen did it. It's not just Erdodrones. It's Secularist Turks as well.

 

[nature boy]

I get that it would unfortunately empower Russia, but US and other NATO allies need to start considering the possibility that it's no longer worth it to have Turkey as an ally.

It's a fine line, no one wants Russian missiles in Turkey.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I get that it would unfortunately empower Russia, but US and other NATO allies need to start considering the possibility that it's no longer worth it to have Turkey as an ally.

The refugee situation is probably just as important to some nations right now.

Proof proof. What exact proof are you people looking for? Even if there was the type of proof you want, you'll just dismiss it as Turkish propaganda.

Everyone in Turkey, of all political persuasions, are near unanimous that Gulen did it. It's not just Erdodrones. It's Secularist Turks as well.

Extradition and sentencing requires proof. Give us the proof, not your national delusions a la DPRK.

 

[Oriel]

I get that it would unfortunately empower Russia, but US and other NATO allies need to start considering the possibility that it's no longer worth it to have Turkey as an ally.

Turkey is far to valuable a strategic partner of NATO and the US to allow drift into Russia's orbit. Every credible geopolitical analyst concurs that Turkey is the linchpin of the entire Western strategy in the Middle East. And yes, I find this reality utterly depressing and nauseating too.

 

[Melkezadek]

Not sure what people would expect a NATO ally to do.

 

[Phantast2k]

The body language of Biden in his visit last month speaks volumes where he "apologized" to Turkey and President Erdogan.

I don't think this claim is supported by the whole meeting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn8I8KPgk70

Turkey and Russia have too many areas of conflict to be friends. This new friendship is just two dictators and int. pariahs (one already there, the other one in the making) trying to gain more diplomatic wiggle room.

 

[Stereogatari]

Extradition and sentencing requires proof. Give us the proof, not your national delusions a la DPRK.

So us Secularist anti-government and anti-Erdogan Turks are part of the national delusion too? How does that work?

The Secularist Turkish intelligentsia were warning about Gulen back when Erdogan was buddy buddy with them in the 00s. If the Secularist Westernised Europhile Islamophobic etc. intelligentsia of Turkey are not to be trusted on this matter, then who is for goodness sake?

This issue is complicated. Don't think there's no proof for Gulen just because Erdogan is after Gulen. Because it feels like you are adopting an attitude of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Albeit that's the exact same attitude Secular Turks are taking as well in reverse (Erdogan is the lesser of 2 evils compared with Gulen).

 

[DiipuSurotu]

I'm glad Stereogatari is not a judge or lawyer.

 

[Frozenprince]

We're gonna send a fucking 70 year old who's just been living in Pennsylvania to his death, aren't we?

 

[NyMartin90]

I don't think this claim is supported by the whole meeting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn8I8KPgk70

Turkey and Russia have too many areas of conflict to be friends. This new friendship is just two dictators and int. pariahs (one already there, the other one in the making) trying to gain more diplomatic wiggle room.

While the Aug. 24th meeting did focus on many issues, Biden still made several statements of sympathy and attempted rapprochement with Erdogan to make up for what is seen in Turkey and the Turkish perspective as a lack of US support in the aftermath of the coup.

"I can understand how some of your countrymen feel the world didn't respond to their existential crisis rapidly enough or with the appropriate amount of solidarity and empathy," Biden said following a two-and-a-half hour meeting with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. "That's why I wanted to be personally here and was asked by the President to personally represent him to tell you and your colleagues and countrymen how very, very sorry I am" about what the nation experienced. http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/24/politics/joe-biden-turkey-coup-us-support/

Biden, in a meeting with the Turkish Speaker İsmail Kahraman, said he (Biden) "wish(ed) Gulen were in another country."

"We will abide by our system. We will continue to abide by the system and, God willing, there will be enough data and evidence to be able to meet the criteria that you all believe exist," Biden said, according to reporters traveling with him. http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/24/politics/joe-biden-turkey-coup-us-support/

On the subject of Turko-Russian relations, there are definitely tons of areas of conflicts to be hammered out between the two. Their animosity and the Turks' sense of Russophobia goes back centuries.

 

[Shiggy]

We're gonna send a fucking 70 year old who's just been living in Pennsylvania to his death, aren't we?

To be fair, the Gulen movement is not too different from other cults such as Scientology. They have pretty bad stuff running even here in Germany.

 

[Jeels]

It must be so difficult trying to deal with Turkey right now...

What does Turkey see in Russia anyway. Is it just payback for no EU admission and stuff like that? I don't think that's the right response if so.

 

[vaderise]

Proof proof. What exact proof are you people looking for? Even if there was the type of proof you want, you'll just dismiss it as Turkish propaganda.

Everyone in Turkey, of all political persuasions, are near unanimous that Gulen did it. It's not just Erdodrones. It's Secularist Turks as well.

This i can confirm. I'm FAR from being a Erdogan supporter and you have to switch your brain off to think failed coup wasn't made by Gulenists.

To be fair, the Gulen movement is not too different from other cults such as Scientology. They have pretty bad stuff running even here in Germany.

At least Scientology has Tom Cruise.

 

[SgtCobra]

Erdogan always wins. Ugh.

 

[NyMartin90]

It must be so difficult trying to deal with Turkey right now...

What does Turkey see in Russia anyway. Is it just payback for no EU admission and stuff like that? I don't think that's the right response if so.

I think its more interests with trying to see stability in Syria along the Turkish border, Russian economic ties/ Russian tourism in Turkey, the Refugee/Migrant crisis, definitely the EU Admission you bring up and the feeling by Turks/ Erdogan that the EU would've wanted the coup to succeed/ low support for the Erdogan regime during the coup.

 

[vaderise]

It must be so difficult trying to deal with Turkey right now...

What does Turkey see in Russia anyway. Is it just payback for no EU admission and stuff like that? I don't think that's the right response if so.

Economic relations especially when it comes to tourism.
Strong supporter against Syria situation.

 

[Crisco]

I mean is there any actual evidence of Erdogan's elections being fixed? Seems like he's the legitimate ruler of a democratic republic so the international community, Obama included, can't really take any other stance than this. Hell, if the coup showed anything, it's that a majority of Turks have his back.

 

[Frustrated_me]

What does Turkey see in Russia anyway.

How about gaining Russian permission to advance into Syria and kill Kurds?

 

[Kurdel]

I love the agressive cooperation stance the Obama admin has taken.

I mean is there any actual evidence of Erdogan's elections being fixed? Seems like he's the legitimate ruler of a democratic republic so the international community, Obama included, can't really take any other stance than this. Hell, if the coup showed anything, it's that a majority of Turks have his back.

From what I see, the Obama admin is still waiting for actual proof which the Turkish government has yet to provide?

 

[AlimNassor]

I get that it would unfortunately empower Russia, but US and other NATO allies need to start considering the possibility that it's no longer worth it to have Turkey as an ally.

Losing Turkey as an ally would be a huge blow. They're too important.

 

[Kusagari]

I'm pretty sure Obama is only saying this so aggressively because the state department is certain Turkey has no actual proof Gulen was involved.

 

[vaderise]

Obama Administration waiting for proof makes no sense. There's a ton of rock-solid evidence and even Gulen himself has actual statements for the coup attempt.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Proof proof. What exact proof are you people looking for? Even if there was the type of proof you want, you'll just dismiss it as Turkish propaganda.

Everyone in Turkey, of all political persuasions, are near unanimous that Gulen did it. It's not just Erdodrones. It's Secularist Turks as well.

What do you mean, what kind of proof do you need? How about papers showing his involvement, communications, believable confessions.

You know that "everyone knows he did it" doesn't really hold up in court right? At least it shouldn't.

And you know, it would help if you'd actually sent it to the US then if you have evidence. As of August 25 that didn't happen: http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/25...nce-linking-gulen-to-coup-sent-to-washington/

And on August 19th, Turkey only showed stuff about Gulen's activity before the coup. So that is kind of strange also. https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...0cb0ec-6656-11e6-be4e-23fc4d4d12b4_story.html

August 20th, Turkey said the CIA has more proof then Turkey about Gulen's involvement. So why doesn't Turkey have this then? http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/ci...ster.aspx?pageID=238&nID=103054&NewsCatID=510

 

[jorma]

Extradition and sentencing requires proof. Give us the proof, not your national delusions a la DPRK.

You know that guantanamo bay is still open. Should be enough evidence that "proof" is not actually required for either of those things.

 

[TestOfTide]

It must be so difficult trying to deal with Turkey right now...

What does Turkey see in Russia anyway. Is it just payback for no EU admission and stuff like that? I don't think that's the right response if so.

It's about Turkey scaring NATO into backing their every move.

 

[El Topo]

To be fair, the Gulen movement is not too different from other cults such as Scientology. They have pretty bad stuff running even here in Germany.

They're pretty fucked up.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Heh, just like how the US brought the Egyptian coup plotters to justice? Oh wait, they actually succeeded in their goal of overthrowing Morsi. Had the Turkish plotters prevailed Obama would have been in Ankara a few weeks later kissing the asses of the new leadership.

Uhh, duh.

However they knew the "coup" (Which they didn't call it during the event for very important legal reasons) was going to fail pretty early on, so there really wasn't much risk for them openly supporting the government so early into the night.

 

[ClosingADoor]

You know that guantanamo bay is still open. Should be enough evidence that "proof" is not actually required for either of those things.

What does this have to do with anything, beside shifting the conversation to "the US does bad things"?

 

[sphagnum]

Obama Administration waiting for proof makes no sense. There's a ton of rock-solid evidence and even Gulen himself has actual statements for the coup attempt.

Turkey should easily be able to provide that proof then, right?

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Obama Administration waiting for proof makes no sense. There's a ton of rock-solid evidence and even Gulen himself has actual statements for the coup attempt.

then where is the beef?

 

[jorma]

What does this have to do with anything, beside shifting the conversation to "the US does bad things"?

It's pretty obvious what it has to do with claiming the moral high ground here. "We need proof because we're not north korea" is a pretty bold faced lie.

 

[sphagnum]

It's pretty obvious what it has to do with claiming the moral high ground here. "We need proof because we're not north korea" is a pretty bold faced lie.

Erdogan is actively fucking up American actions in Syria and cozying up to Russia. Obama has to maintain a diplomatically friendly position with him because he's a NATO ally, but he clearly doesn't like him. What he's doing is completely for the purpose of showing Erdogan that he can't completely walk all over the US while maintaining a totally by-the-book aspect of international relations.

 

[ClosingADoor]

It's pretty obvious what it has to do with claiming the moral high ground here. "We need proof because we're not north korea" is a pretty bold faced lie.

So because a country somewhere has done something bad, now it is supposed to be a free for all and that country should just extradite people with literally zero proof, since Turkey can't be arsed to sent anything relevant in?

Can you point me towards some articles that detail the proof Turkey has about Gulen's involvement? Because I can't find it.

 

[BKSmash]

ffs Obama

 

[jorma]

So because a country somewhere has done something bad, now it is supposed to be a free for all and that country should just extradite people with literally zero proof, since Turkey can't be arsed to sent anything relevant in?

Well the US will do as they please. I'm just saying that they aren't doing it from the moral high ground, or because "they need proof".
If they want to hand him over they'll do it regardless of proof, and if they don't they won't. Regardless of proof.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Well the US will do as they please. I'm just saying that they aren't doing it from the moral high ground, or because "they need proof".
If they want to hand him over they'll do it regardless of proof, and if they don't they won't. Regardless of proof.

They need proof, because otherwise there is no reason for extradition and you can't do that, since it would give Turkey the upper hand and make the US look weak. And proof is a pretty standard thing to hand over in cases like this. I don't think I have heard of cases where the US was like "sure, just take this person" without any documents needed in large international cases. It just doesn't make sense to do that.

Also: nobody in this thread has been able to show any proof that Turkey supposedly has. Maybe it exists, but I have yet to see any.

 

[gutter_trash]

I like Obama overall but I am not a fan of his approach on foreign policy

Edrogan is a bad man

 

[oti]

ffs Obama

I like Obama overall but I am not a fan of his approach on foreign policy

Edrogan is a bad man

Are you guys serious? This is Diplomacy 101.
Coup in a democracy = bad. Every democratic leader has to follow this unless they want to undermine the very basics of democracy. Of course Erdogan isn't as democratic as Obama or Merkel but that's not the point and they still have to say these things like "we will help you". These words don't mean much but they help to relax the situation with Turkey that seems to gravitate more towards Russia these days.

 

[jorma]

it would give Turkey the upper hand and make the US look weak.

Uhu. So its not really about "proof" and the "rule of law" after all, eh. It's about posturing, like i said.

 

[Nerokis]

Proof proof. What exact proof are you people looking for? Even if there was the type of proof you want, you'll just dismiss it as Turkish propaganda.

Everyone in Turkey, of all political persuasions, are near unanimous that Gulen did it. It's not just Erdodrones. It's Secularist Turks as well.

People can be collectively wrong.

It was a pretty mediocre coup attempt, and almost every major institution and political party decried it immediately. Not the kind of thing I'd feel comfortable signing onto if I was in Gulen's shoes, for reasons including the fact that it would be blatantly counterproductive to my cause. I mean, he might have helped set the groundwork for it, but should he be criminalized if he didn't actually support it?

And either way, it doesn't matter. It wouldn't be right for us to extradite someone on the basis of a strong suspicion. If Turkey is near unanimous that Gulen did it, surely coming up with a strong legal case wouldn't be too difficult.

 

[Armaros]

I like Obama overall but I am not a fan of his approach on foreign policy

Edrogan is a bad man

So the US should go back to backing/supporting military coups in democratic nations?

That went over so well before.

 

[NyMartin90]

And either way, it doesn't matter. It wouldn't be right for us to extradite someone on the basis of a strong suspicion.

Haven't there been thousands of cases of people falsely extradited to the United States on false suspicions of terror links from places like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. based on U.S. demands that if you don't give us these terror suspects you support terror in the last 15 years.