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[Instigator]

I think atheists will in this case actually agree with muslims.

Food you give to a statue does go to wastE, and the statue has no real ears and can't hear your prayer

Idolatry does makes sense in a very human way: it makes something abstract and intangible an actual object you can touch and see. So it's no longer "just in your head".

 

[Chuckie]

Idolatry does makes sense in a very human way: it makes something abstract and intangible an actual object you can touch and see. So it's no longer "just in your head".

You have a point.

However it still seems 'useless' to offer something a God/Ancestors/Spirit has no need for (anymore)

If I offer a bit of rice to Ganesha, the bowl of rice is still there the next day. It wasn't accepted/taken... the only difference is it has become inedible.

 

[Instigator]

You have a point.

However it still seems 'useless' to offer something a God/Ancestors/Spirit has no need for (anymore)

If I offer a bit of rice to Ganesha, the bowl of rice is still there the next day. It wasn't accepted/taken... the only difference is it has become inedible.

It's definitely pointless from an atheist's perspective, but if you think you live in a world at the mercy of invisible beings, I can see how setting aside a fraction of something precious for sacrifice is less likely to cause you harm than not doing anything.

If I were living in 4000 BC Europe, I'd probably be making an offering around this time of year. I would completely depend on a good harvest in the coming year and I would like to put all the odds in my favor for the sake of my own survival.

 

[RiZ III]

-Then it expands about Jinns - no other religion talks about it.
Because it's superstitious nonsense carried over from pre-islamic Arabia.

The concept of hidden and/or demonic beings/forces exists in all sorts of religions and cultures.

The literal meaning of jinn is something that is hidden. The idea of invisible things surrounding us isn't really superstitious as 80% of the universe is actually made of invisible matter..

 

[Chuckie]

It's definitely pointless from an atheist's perspective, but if you think you live in a world at the mercy of invisible beings, I can see how setting aside a fraction of something precious for sacrifice is less likely to cause you harm than not doing anything.

If I were living in 4000 BC Europe, I'd probably be making an offering around this time of year. I would completely depend on a good harvest in the coming year and I would like to put all the odds in my favor for the sake of my own survival.

Well sometimes it can even be sweet. My aunt (who's chinese-indonesian) always offers a cup of coffee, cake and a cigaret to the picture of her deceased father on his birthday.

I think the way it makes her feel is worth the 'waste' of the offerings and even though it may be 'pointless' in the sense of not being consumed, it is not pointless in the way it makes her remember her father.

(Did I just change my opinion on offerings? )

 

[Shanadeus]

.

 

[Instigator]

The concept of hidden and/or demonic beings/forces exists in all sorts of religions and cultures.

The literal meaning of jinn is something that is hidden. The idea of invisible things surrounding us isn't really superstitious as 80% of the universe is actually made of invisible matter..

Yes, but Zapages specifies Jinn which are unique to Arabia in origin. Of course Islam talks about them as it comes from the same place and didn't make a complete break from the pagan past.

As for your more general statement about the universe, science makes the case for it as a model to explain how the universe behaves, with some degree of predictibility. Jinn is the figment of ancient desert people's imagination and no more valid than thinking benelovent beings live in trees and marshes.

 

[F#A#Oo]

Regarding apostasy:

How many here think that it should be punishable by law in an Islamic society?
If you don't, what do you usually say to your Islamic peers and/or family that are for punishable apostasy?
Is it apostasy if someone is born to a muslim couple, and then chose not to become a muslim when they're old enough to make up their own mind?



That's not an answer though, not in the case of an omnipower AND omniscient God at least.
If God is all-powerful, then he can create the universe in such a way that all individuals shaped billions years later will end up, by their own free will, to believe in God.
If he doesn't create the universe in this fashion, then he knows before he creates it (thanks to his omniscience) that he will create a universe in which there will one day be individuals that will not believe in him.

Now the two different universes are equally possible with an all-powerful and an all-knowing God, and we can clearly see that one is better than the other (the one where people of their own free will chose to believe in God), yet our universe is the worse one - meaning that God intentionally created a universe with individuals that will not believe in him for some reason.

Basically, God indirectly created some people to believe in him while he indirectly created some people not to believe in him.

That is exactly the Islamic view...when a person converts we say it's due to the will of god and being justly guided...

 

[Shanadeus]

.

 

[Ashes]

That is what some people have problems with, as a God that don't justly guide everyone into faith is worse than a God that justly guide everyone into faith as the consequence for not having faith are either suffering or a lack of a continued existence after death.

What does that even mean?

And how does it even relate to the understanding of divine guidance per say in the Islamic faith?

 

[Zapages]

The concept of hidden and/or demonic beings/forces exists in all sorts of religions and cultures.

The literal meaning of jinn is something that is hidden. The idea of invisible things surrounding us isn't really superstitious as 80% of the universe is actually made of invisible matter..

On top of this, not all Jinns are evil and some of them Muslim or some other religion. I was speaking in sense that we are not alone.

@Instigator, why are just picking on me dude. I was just giving my own reasons at that time.

 

[crazy monkey]

What does that even mean?

no one knows what it means but it's provocative. Gets people going.

 

[RustyNails]

It's not so much as the opinions in themselves but rather their capacity to evoke hateful emotions. Take for example ethnic minorities around the world. We have this almost-inherent flaw as humans to adopt at ease negative stereotypes and generalisations. Look at prophecies of end times; the conflict based on ideology. If it's not based on nationality, it's based on race or religion. If it's not that, it's based on sport rivalries that turn hateful, or neighbourhood zones; it's always an us against you.

In Quran, this much was forecasted. When Allah created Adam and asked all the angels and the jinns to bow, some of the angels asked Allah what is the wisdom in creating beings that will cause bloodshed and violence on the land. Allah replied with "I know what ye know not", and everyone bowed. Except Iblis of course. But the point is that, our individual potential outweighs our collective drawback.

 

[Shanadeus]

.

 

[soultron]

Hey, I have a strange request,

I'm at work and a really rude younger guy came in asking to leave a message for his mother. (I work at a gym.)

I told him he couldn't come into the women's area because their are Muslim women (Men are not allowed in our woman's only area for religious reasons.) in there, but he was very adamant about coming in.

I thought something was up because his brothers/sisters/friends were laughing hysterically the entire time. He left a note, and I asked him to spell his mom's name in English so I could look her up in the system but he wouldn't.

He left a message in Arabic for her, but I think it was a prank. Do you guys mind translating it for me, if possible?

 

[biohazzah]

Hey, I have a strange request,

I'm at work and a really rude younger guy came in asking to leave a message for his mother. (I work at a gym.)

I told him he couldn't come into the women's area because their are Muslim women (Men are not allowed in our woman's only area for religious reasons.) in there, but he was very adamant about coming in.

I thought something was up because his brothers/sisters/friends were laughing hysterically the entire time. He left a note, and I asked him to spell his mom's name in English so I could look her up in the system but he wouldn't.

He left a message in Arabic for her, but I think it was a prank. Do you guys mind translating it for me, if possible?

Where is the message?

 

[soultron]

Where is the message?

I'm just uploading the images from my phone. I'll edit this message when the photos are up.

 

[soultron]

Pictures:

Edit: Apologies if they're upside-down.

 

[Instigator]

Soultron, that is quite obscene.

@Instigator, why are just picking on me dude. I was just giving my own reasons at that time.

Not picking on you per se. I just needed a reply to rebut to get my feet wet (I haven't been here for a while). It could have been anyone's reply, but yours stroke me as especially suitable for that purpose.

 

[OttomanScribe]

At a Somali wedding atm. It be crazy! The transition from Surah Fatiha to LMFAO's 'sexy and I know it' was a tad jarring

There were also sparkle bomb things and a palanquin. So crazy lah!

 

[Darackutny]

soutron:

I can't make out the top picture, but I can tell it is upside down.

The bottom picture is the name of a guy: Aboodi Saleh. The top picture also seems to say Aboodi.

 

[crazy monkey]

Can some one tell me meaning and history beihind name " Safin" I named my son safin. I found out on internet that it is name of propher(saw) but nothing more to it. It will be very helpful especially if you know arabic.

 

[soultron]

soutron:

I can't make out the top picture, but I can tell it is upside down.

The bottom picture is the name of a guy: Aboodi Saleh. The top picture also seems to say Aboodi.

Does this help?

 

[Instigator]

What do Muslims in predominently Christian countries do around Xmas time? Everything is closed (or almost), Internet is deserted, TV is shit.

 

[F#A#Oo]

What do Muslims in predominently Christian countries do around Xmas time? Everything is closed (or almost), Internet is deserted, TV is shit.

TV can be quite good...I do enjoy the Christmas TV...as they just put on a ton of films. Everyone is so chilled around Christmas too so it makes me pretty chilled too.

My family is Italian so I just use it as an excuse to demand special occasion food ...oven baked fish (Trout, Salmon) various pasta dishes...slow cooked lamb...and lots and lots of cakes...

My favourite cake...Crostata di ricotta

Mmmmm!!!

I indulge way too much...

 

[victreeb3l]

What do Muslims in predominently Christian countries do around Xmas time? Everything is closed (or almost), Internet is deserted, TV is shit.

friends' parents usually invite me over for food during christmas day and then i just chill with them afterwards. otherwise its just a regular day of video games, work, gym, etc.

i dont spend much time on the internet or watch TV so i dont notice any difference

 

[Darackutny]

Does this help?

Nope. It isn't anywhere as legible as the first line.

 

[soultron]

Nope. It isn't anywhere as legible as the first line.

Thanks for your help, everyone. It wasn't legible to me at all, not that I can read Arabic, but it looks extremely sloppy. The mother's name was "walasim" or something to that effect. I knew everyone in the gym at that time and no one by that name was working out.

Thanks again! :]

 

[OttomanScribe]

What do Muslims in predominently Christian countries do around Xmas time? Everything is closed (or almost), Internet is deserted, TV is shit.

Had class with Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad today I think alot of us drive taxis, work in convenience stores or enjoy a day off.

I wear a turban do I spend most of the day convincing people I am one of the wise men.

I'm not.

Will post about the Abdal Hakim Murad lecture when I get a chance, got to digest it first.

 

[OttomanScribe]

A few points of interest in terms of the Shaykh's talk.

He spoke a lot about Hajar, and how her example is one of God being 'with the broken hearted'. He talked about her as an outcast, of mixed descent, a single mother, a refugee... yet she is the only woman to be the source of a major ritual in any of the world religions. He talked about the idea that the Muslims are 'lagging behind', and that despair of this form is merely another form of tribalism. Rather than being concerned with our station in the eyes of God, we are concerned with our station in relation to other tribes.

He said that these two are almost directly opposed, that God is generally not with the wealthy, with the rulers, with the mega churches, he is 'with the broken hearted'. He said that when looking for the awliya of our time, it will not be the man who comes to the Masjid in a Benz and gets all the respect, it will be the Somali refugee in the back of the mosque, missing teeth but smiling regardless, that will be the one upon whom our attention is truly deserving.

He told us to be wary of using the term 'spirituality' as the roots of the word itself inherently corrupt our dialogue on the subject. He talked about the Western understanding of spirituality as being inherently dualist, rooted in Augustine's manicheanism. Similarly even the word 'sin' does not encompass the Muslim understanding of that word, 'wrong action' or 'error' being far more accurate. This is because the Christian understanding of sin is that of a 'black hole from which tawbah(sincere repentance) alone cannot allow us to escape', where 'only an infinite being can atone for an infinite sin'. This understanding being inherently alien to our tradition.

There was a lot more but I will summarise later if I get a chance insha'Allah. Allah forgive me if I misrepresent his words, and He alone knows best.

 

[Codeblue]

What do Muslims in predominently Christian countries do around Xmas time? Everything is closed (or almost), Internet is deserted, TV is shit.

I have been recording television for a week in preparation for this day. No more Christmas Story 24 hour marathon for me.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Video interview with author Ben Lewis discussing the history of relations between the West and Muslim world

http://www.booknotes.org/Watch/167924-1/Bernard+Lewis.aspx

 

[OttomanScribe]

Video interview with author Ben Lewis discussing the history of relations between the West and Muslim world

http://www.booknotes.org/Watch/167924-1/Bernard+Lewis.aspx

Bernard Lewis? Yuk

 

[Pollux]

Video interview with author Ben Lewis discussing the history of relations between the West and Muslim world

http://www.booknotes.org/Watch/167924-1/Bernard+Lewis.aspx

I just came here to post this after you sent it to me lol. Very interesting so far. Bernard Lewis is brilliant IMO.

Bernard Lewis? Yuk

Out of curiosity what are your complaints with him?

 

[esquire]

Hey, I have a quick question. Is it against Islam for a muslim woman to marry a non-muslim man? Is it the same for men or is it especially bad when women do it?

I have no idea what the rules are so I'm asking to clarify something someone said to me.

 

[Sayah]

I just came here to post this after you sent it to me lol. Very interesting so far. Bernard Lewis is brilliant IMO.




Out of curiosity what are your complaints with him?

Bernard Lewis is primarily responsible for the argument about the clash of civilizations. Basically Islamic civilization would be viewed as completely distinct from western civilization under this stance. His scholarly work made overarching generalizations about the Islamic world.

Lewis also played an important role in regards to foreign policy matters in the Bush administration and we all know how that turned out.

I would suggest you also look at Edward Said's work.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I just came here to post this after you sent it to me lol. Very interesting so far. Bernard Lewis is brilliant IMO.




Out of curiosity what are your complaints with him?

Where to begin? I would start with his endorsing of the Clash of Civilisations hypothesis, take a tour through his orientalism via his patronizing attitude and probably end up at his Zionism.

Read his discussions with Said for a decent start.

'One can almost hear him saying, over a gin and tonic, "You know, old chap, those wogs never really got it right, did they?"'

 

[Pollux]

Bernard Lewis is primarily responsible for the argument about the clash of civilizations. Basically Islamic civilization would be viewed as completely distinct from western civilization under this stance. His scholarly work made overarching generalizations about the Islamic world.

Lewis also played an important role in regards to foreign policy matters in the Bush administration and we all know how that turned out.

I would suggest you also look at Edward Said's work.

Fair enough. To each his own, so to speak.

I don't really buy into the whole "orientalist" idea but that's probably because I'm on the Western side of the fence to begin with.

I find the ideas he's discussing in the link posted by JR to be very interesting. Within the context of that, is there anything in that Booknotes episode that you take particular offense to? In order to give us something more specific to discuss.

EDIT: I will say WTF to Lewis' stance on the Armenian Genocide.

Where to begin? I would start with his endorsing of the Clash of Civilisations hypothesis, take a tour through his orientalism via his patronizing attitude and probably end up at his Zionism.

Read his discussions with Said for a decent start.

'One can almost hear him saying, over a gin and tonic, "You know, old chap, those wogs never really got it right, did they?"'

I think I laughed way to hard at that. I'm not endorsing his theories, I just think that he's brilliant. Maybe he is biased as all hell, but his book The Middle East is what got me interested in Middle Eastern history to begin with. The reason behind taking Arabic in college and why I majored in International Relations. I don't believe in the "clash of civilizations", personally, I just think that he's not the devil he's sometimes made out to be.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Hey, I have a quick question. Is it against Islam for a muslim woman to marry a non-muslim man? Is it the same for men or is it especially bad when women do it?

I have no idea what the rules are so I'm asking to clarify something someone said to me.

What do you mean by 'against Islam'? In the Sha'riah, marriage with non-Muslims is generally discouraged/prohibited for both sexes.

It is prohibited for both sexes to marry polytheists, atheists etc. the only marriage with a non-Muslim that is permissible, albeit discouraged, is with a woman who is ahlul-Qitab (Jewish or Christian) and even then there is debate as to wether the modern form of either are the kind of people discussed.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I find the ideas he's discussing in the link posted by JR to be very interesting. Within the context of that, is there anything in that Booknotes episode that you take particular offense to? In order to give us something more specific to discuss..

Posting from my phone, kind of hard to watch anything like that, can give you a reply in like a week when I get back to Sydney, God willing.

 

[Pollux]

Posting from my phone, kind of hard to watch anything like that, can give you a reply in like a week when I get back to Sydney, God willing.

No rush, hope your travels are safe and everything goes well.

 

[esquire]

What do you mean by 'against Islam'? In the Sha'riah, marriage with non-Muslims is generally discouraged/prohibited for both sexes.

It is prohibited for both sexes to marry polytheists, atheists etc. the only marriage with a non-Muslim that is permissible, albeit discouraged, is with a woman who is ahlul-Qitab (Jewish or Christian) and even then there is debate as to wether the modern form of either are the kind of people discussed.

Wow, that is so weird!

Okay, thanks.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Hey, I have a quick question. Is it against Islam for a muslim woman to marry a non-muslim man? Is it the same for men or is it especially bad when women do it?

I have no idea what the rules are so I'm asking to clarify something someone said to me.

OS alluded to it earlier in that there is a very specific definition of "non-Muslim" in this context of marriage. The first requirement is that she has to be one of the People of the Book, either Jewish or Christian (not just by name but actually believe in her faith) and the second requirement is that she be chaste. I've said she in both examples because you're right that Muslim women, for various reasons, cannot marry a Jewish or Christian man irregardless. One of the main gears in this question is children, specifically how you raise those children. Interfaith marriage isn't encouraged because, as you may have guessed, there is that serious question in which faith you raise those children where each spouse will have a legitimate right to want to raise them in their beliefs. The other point is of course Judaism and many Christians do not allow interfaith marriages full stop, meaning women from those faiths wanting to marry a Muslim man will come across difficulty in trying to find the union compatible with their beliefs. As such, a Muslim woman wanting to marry a Christian or Jewish man would have to convert before such a marriage can happen.

It's a romantic concept but sadly complicated.

 

[Sayah]

Fair enough. To each his own, so to speak.

I don't really buy into the whole "orientalist" idea but that's probably because I'm on the Western side of the fence to begin with.

I find the ideas he's discussing in the link posted by JR to be very interesting. Within the context of that, is there anything in that Booknotes episode that you take particular offense to? In order to give us something more specific to discuss.

EDIT: I will say WTF to Lewis' stance on the Armenian Genocide.



[/B]

I think I laughed way to hard at that. I'm not endorsing his theories, I just think that he's brilliant. Maybe he is biased as all hell, but his book The Middle East is what got me interested in Middle Eastern history to begin with. The reason behind taking Arabic in college and why I majored in International Relations. I don't believe in the "clash of civilizations", personally, I just think that he's not the devil he's sometimes made out to be.

The orientalism critique by Said is also lacking in my opinion in some ways but it's a step in the right direction. Particularly, I like Al-Azm's critique (directly quoted from my book):

In an act of retrospective historical projection we find Said tracing the origins of Orientalism all the way back to Homer, Aeschylus, Euripedes and Dante. In other words, Orientalism is not really a thoroughly modern phenomenon, as we thought earlier, but is the natural product of an ancient and almost irresistible European bent of mind to misrepresent the realities of other cultures, peoples, and their languages, in favor of Occidental self-affirmation, domination and ascendancy. Here the author seems to be saying that the "European mind," from Homer to Karl Marx and H.A.R. Gibb, is inherently bent on distorting all human realities other than its own for the sake of its own aggrandisement.

This way of construing the origins of Orientalism, al-'Azm argued, drew on the same essentializing dichotomy between East and West, and the same monolithic and static conception of culture, which Said saw as central to Orientalism and set out to demolish. It made much more sense, al-'Azm argued, to treat both forms of Orientalism as modern phenomena rather than as pervasive in some timeless, monolithic and inevitably essentialized "Western culture" since its very inception.


Despite these justly situated critiques, however, Said's work has really helped redefine how people approach various fields of study now.

As far as Bernard Lewis, this is what went wrong.

 

[Atrus]

Wow, that is so weird!

Okay, thanks.

It's not weird so much as bigoted.

The central idea is that men are the head of the households and so the children will be raised in whatever faith the men are.

Since religions are ideas whose primary purpose is to propagate itself over all else, you kind of get the picture as to why this is the case. The same goes with apostasy and the death penalty.

 

[OttomanScribe]

It's not weird so much as bigoted.

The central idea is that men are the head of the households and so the children will be raised in whatever faith the men are.

Since religions are ideas whose primary purpose is to propagate itself over all else, you kind of get the picture as to why this is the case. The same goes with apostasy and the death penalty.

A Muslim woman is given numerous rights in Islam, there is no garauntee that if she marries into another community, she will have these rights extended to her.

Similarly in general, the assumption that patriarchy exists is not in itself bigoted, I think, in general, it remains quite accurate.

 

[Atrus]

A Muslim woman is given numerous rights in Islam, there is no garauntee that if she marries into another community, she will have these rights extended to her.

Similarly in general, the assumption that patriarchy exists is not in itself bigoted, I think, in general, it remains quite accurate.

That's just a rationalization of bigotry. To accept such bigoted tenets makes the believer a bigot, if they are uncomfortable about claiming to be a bigot then they should re-examine and change their bigoted beliefs.

 

[Sayah]

It's not weird so much as bigoted.

The central idea is that men are the head of the households and so the children will be raised in whatever faith the men are.

Since religions are ideas whose primary purpose is to propagate itself over all else, you kind of get the picture as to why this is the case. The same goes with apostasy and the death penalty.

Both of them seem to be very complex issues with a wide variety of interpretations.
As far as I know, there is supposed to be no compulsion in religion under Islam. But how modern day countries have held their interpretation of Sharia in regards to apostasy obviously varies diversely. It would be wrong, however, to mark the views of differing countries or empires as being representative of an entire religion which over a billion of people follow.

Some google search results led to the following.
Apostasy in Islam

The Qur'an itself does not prescribe any earthly punishment for apostasy; Islamic scholarship differs on its punishment, ranging from execution – on an interpretation of certain hadiths – to no punishment at all as long as they "do not work against the Muslim society or nation."

Marriage for Muslims (Fatwa)

All jurists agreed that a Muslim man or woman may not marry a mushrik [one who associates partners with God--there is a complex and multi-layered discourse on who is to be considered a mushrik, but we will leave this for a separate discussion]. However, because of al-Ma'ida verse 5, there is an exception in the case of a Muslim man marrying a kitabiyya. There is no express prohibition in the Qur'an or elsewhere about a Muslim woman marrying a kitabi. However, the jurists argued that since express permission was given to men, by implication women must be prohibited from doing the same. The argument goes: If men needed to be given express permission to marry a kitabiyya, women needed to be given express permission as well, but since they were not given any such permission then they must be barred from marrying a kitabi.

 

[OttomanScribe]

That's just a rationalization of bigotry. To accept such bigoted tenets makes the believer a bigot, if they are uncomfortable about claiming to be a bigot then they should re-examine and change their bigoted beliefs.

I think you could have tried harder and crammed the word 'bigot' more into that post.

Would you marry a devout Muslim and have no problem with her/him raising your children with Muslim values?

 

[OttomanScribe]

In other news, my wife was on the News in a fluff piece about Hijabi fashion week:

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/...61409,221842824560971,166804226753979&_ft_c=m

They totally mangled her name lol.