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[Dunki]

Personally I subscribe to the theory that gender is a constantly evolving spectrum, rooted in both biological and social construct, and the large amount of variety of identity comes from a need to express oneself in a human culture that puts emphasis on labels and puts a LOT of emphasis on binary gender roles in nearly all aspects of life. In other words, we wouldn't need all these different terms if people stopped saying things like "THERE ARE ONLY THIS AMOUNT OF GENDERS. YOU ARE ONE OF THESE THINGS AND YOU HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE."

Several of those identities you claim don't exist (I suspect without actually doing any research on the subject) have had some small (I emphasize small) scientific research put into them. Specifically things like Agenderism and Bigenderism. I'm not arguing that those concepts are rooted completely in scientific fact.

But I am absolutely arguing that the historical evidence that supports that people of nonbinary and gender non-conforming identity have existed in many many cultures over thousands and thousands of years, and recently, we have some evidence to support that there may be some mental and biological links in the brain to contribute, and not nearly enough research has been done on the subject.

But you strike me as a "this is stupid so there's no reason to waste money doing research on it" kind of guy.

So around and around debating between two sides that will never ever change their mind we go....

This is what you google. If I go even further I can show you lists of people who argue that there are over 100 of these.

That is why I said it is all made up to be different to separate themselves from the norm etc.

The List I posted and it was not all was also from this site.

http://thepbhscloset.weebly.com/a-list-of-genders--sexualities-and-their-definitions.html

But you also can find these on news media site like here for example
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/the...ossary-of-gender-identities-for-your-next-ce/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/29/gender-dictionary-2015

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transgender-gender-identity-terms-glossary/

https://www.lifehacker.com.au/2016/...recognised-by-the-2016-australian-sex-survey/

And this goes on and on. And I love sceience but I do not see gender studies in general as science since they are not working with scientific methods to come to a conclusion (in most cases) If there are some I will glady read them.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

Personally I subscribe to the theory that gender is a constantly evolving spectrum, rooted in both biological and social construct,

but human biology hasnt ever changed and the "social construct" basically is unchanged. more people in the world conform to the default construct of man and woman so on and so forth. so where is the phenomena coming from? its clearly something new. like i said earlier i think it people really wanted to know what it is and where it comes from and why. like anything else they could but this subject has become taboo.

 

[llien]

But I am absolutely arguing that the historical evidence that supports that people of nonbinary and gender non-conforming identity have existed in many many cultures over thousands and thousands of years...

Yes, it would be weird if not as it would mean something that happened recently had triggered it, but what does it prove? Nothing.
If I get it right the argument between two camps is who the trans people actually are, not that they exist.

 

[LordRaptor]

...Is there any medical issue that isn't also a "social" one?

To some extent, yes, you are correct.

But surely you can see why there is social pushback on the notion that someone who is to all appearances a man but who chooses to "identify" as a woman on a part time basis would make people uneasy walking into a female changing room on a day they choose to identify as a woman, in a way that a fully transitioned male to female transexual would not evoke that response?

 

[MamaRice]

This is what you google. If I go even further I can show you lists of people who argue that there are over 100 of these.

That is why I said it is all made up to be different to separate themselves from the norm etc.

The List I posted and it was not all was also from this site.

http://thepbhscloset.weebly.com/a-list-of-genders--sexualities-and-their-definitions.html

But you also can find these on news media site like here for example
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/the...ossary-of-gender-identities-for-your-next-ce/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/29/gender-dictionary-2015

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transgender-gender-identity-terms-glossary/

https://www.lifehacker.com.au/2016/...recognised-by-the-2016-australian-sex-survey/

And this goes on and on. And I love sceience but I do not see gender studies in general as science since they are not working with scientific methods to come to a conclusion (in most cases) If there are some I will glady read them.

but human biology hasnt ever changed and the "social construct" basically is unchanged. more people in the world conform to the default construct of man and woman so on and so forth. so where is the phenomena coming from? its clearly something new. like i said earlier i think it people really wanted to know what it is and where it comes from and why. like anything else they could but this subject has become taboo.

Both of you aren't reading the actual words I'm saying. I already mentioned it. We know that there have been people of non conforming gender all throughout history going back thousands of years. It is absolutely no true to say that it's "something new"

Prior to western contact, some American Native tribes had third-gender roles, but details were only recorded after the arrival of Europeans. Roles included "berdache" (a derogatory term for people who were assigned male at birth, who assumed a traditionally feminine role) and "passing women" (people who were assigned female at birth who took on a traditionally masculine role). The term "berdache" is not a Native American word; rather it was of European origin and covered a range of third-gender people in different tribes. Not all Native American tribes recognized transgender people.

One of the first accounts of transgender people in the Americas was made by Jesuit missionary Joseph-François Lafitau who spent six years among the Iroquois in 1711. He observed "women with manly courage who prided themselves upon the profession of warrior" as well as "men cowardly enough to live as women."

n North America, as late as 1930 (with the Klamath in the Pacific Northwest), Two-Spirit Natives are noted among tribal communities. Originally called "berdache," a name of largely insulting intent given by Europeans, Native culture adopted the term "Two-Spirit" as a blanket term -- though in reality, nearly every tribe had at least one (often several) unique name for Two-Spirit peoples, with the names sometimes addressing different aspects of those populations. Two-Spirit actually covers the full range of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender persons, as well as intersex and other gender-variant people. It was often thought that Two-Spirits had two spirits inhabiting the same body, and that Two-Spirit people deserved a special kind of reverence. Jesuit priest Jacques Marquette notes that in the Illinois and Nadouessi tribes, nothing is decided without their advice.
The sensational nature of reports of Two-Spirit peoples and the hatred they contained were used to try to justify genocide, theft of land and the dismantling of Native culture and religion. In Panama, explorer Vasco Nunez de Balboa threw a King and forty others of a Native tribe to be eaten by his dogs, because they crossdressed or had same-sex partners. Spaniards committed similar genocides in the Antilles and Louisiana. In those areas where Two-Spirit traditions survived, they were later driven underground or supplanted completely by missionary teachings and residential schools, both of which were bent on destroying Native culture.
Inuit FTMs serve White Whale Woman, who was believed to have been transformed into a man or woman-man.

In ancient Assyria, there were homosexual and transgender cult prostitutes, who took part in public processions, singing, dancing, wearing costumes, sometimes wearing women's clothes and carrying female symbols, even at times performing the act of giving birth.

In ancient India, Hijra are a caste of third-gender, or transgender group who live a feminine role. Hijra may be born male or intersex, and some may have been born female. Hijras have a recorded history in the Indian subcontinent from antiquity onwards as suggested by the Kama Sutra period.

In Persia, poets such as Sa'di, Hafiz, and Jami wrote poems replete with homoerotic allusions, including sex with transgender young women or males enacting transgender roles exemplified by the köçeks and the bacchás, and Sufi spiritual practices.

In Ancient Greece and Phrygia, and later in the Roman Republic, the Goddess Cybele was worshiped by a cult of people who castrated themselves, and thereafter took female dress and referred to themselves as female.

Roman historian Plutarch depicts "The Great Mother" as an Intersex deity from whom the two sexes had not yet split. Trans-gendered depictions of The Great Mother and Her priestesses are found in ancient artifacts back to the earliest civilizations in Mesopotamia, Assyria, Babylonia and Akkad. Some historians portray MTF priestesses as being recognized as something sacred, while others portray them as undergoing castration in order to subvert matrilineal rule and wrest religious direction from the control of women. David F. Greenberg, however, concludes that records of trans priestesses do date back "to the late Paleolithic (if not earlier)," suggesting that the advent of transgender priestesses was not simply a later reaction to feminine leadership and veneration. In some regions, particularily the oldest European customs, it even appears that some form of gender transgression was almost considered one's religious duty, at times (i.e. certain revelries).

For centuries, Muslim tradition differentiated between MTF transsexuals who live as prostitutes or criminals, and those in whom femininity was innate and who lived blamelessly. The latter were called "mukhannathun," and accepted within the boundaries of Islam. Mukhannathun could have relationships with either men or women, but only those who had been castrated or were exclusively attracted to men were allowed into womens' spaces. Later, it was ordered that all mukhannathun undergo castration.

In Africa, intersexed deities and spritual beliefs in gender transformation are recorded in Akan, Ambo-Kwanyama, Bobo, Chokwe, Dahomean (Benin), Dogon, Bambara, Etik, Handa, Humbe, Hunde, Ibo, Jukun, Kimbundu, Konso, Kunama, Lamba, Lango, Luba, Lugbara (where MTFs are called okule and FTMs are called agule), Lulua, Musho, Nat, Nuba, Ovimbundu, Rundi, Sakpota, Shona-Karonga, Venda, Vili-Kongo, and Zulu tribes. Some of this tradition survives in West Africa, as well as Brazilian and Haitian ceremonies that derive from West African religions. In Abomey, the Heviosso maintain trans traditions, in an area renowned for Amazon-like warrior women.

Many early Indonesian societies had transgender figures in religious functions, including the basaja, from the island of Sulawesi (The Celebes). In ancient China, the shih-niang wore mixed-gender ceremonial clothing. In Okinawa, some shamans underwent winagu nati, a process of "becoming female." In Korea, the mudang was a shaman or sorceress who was quite often MTF. In February 1995, archaeologist Timothy Taylor discovered evidence of transgender lives in the Iron Age graves found in southern Russia.

In the Klementi tribe of Albania, if a virgin swore before twelve witnesses that she would not marry, she was then recognized as male, carried weapons, and herded flocks.

Clearly this is a CONSTANT debate over many cultures going back centuries.

RIght now, it's manifest in our internet culture as everyone deciding their own identity. But the root is the same. Traditional gender classifications of male and female are OBSOLETE.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

OBSOLETE.

clearly its not obsolete as its still very much the focal of a lot of topics. im pretty sure you just chose the wrong word. and yes im aware there have been certain times when that similar issue has come up in different times in history BUT neither of us can really put our finger on the impact on different societies or how many people went through this. there just isnt enough information other than "it happened"

 

[MamaRice]

clearly its not obsolete as its still very much the focal of a lot of topics. im pretty sure you just chose the wrong word. and yes im aware there have been certain times when that similar issue has come up in different times in history BUT neither of us can really put our finger on the impact on different societies or how many people went through this. there just isnt enough information other than "it happened"

You literally just tried to argue it was a new thing and questioned where it came from. So you're admitting the thing you just said in your last post is false?

And said this completely nonsensical sentence:

"i think it people really wanted to know what it is and where it comes from and why. like anything else they could but this subject has become taboo. "

What the hell does that even mean? What do you mean "like anything else they could"? Is that not what they're doing?

What are we doing right now? We are debating. I'm expressing my beliefs on where I think these identities come from. I'm trying to have a dialogue.
I'm trying to bridge a gap. my GOAL is for the answer to be arrived at.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

you clearly dont know how to argue and just go into the "what are you talking about" phase. i mean its cool but if you really want to make a point try move away from that

 

[MamaRice]

you clearly dont know how to argue and just go into the "what are you talking about" phase. i mean its cool but if you really want to make a point try move away from that

And you should try to move to forming complete sentences that make sense and aren't incredibly vague and meandering and contradict points you made the post before.

like this post I'm replying to, you call the "what are you talking about phase".

Completely ignoring all the other words I said in that post, the questions I asked, and the examinations I'm doing of your own words.

And you're saying I don't know how to argue? Is this thing on?

 

[5secondrulesucks]

And you should try to move to forming complete sentences that make sense and aren't incredibly vague and meandering and contradict points you made the post before.

they're not vague at all and you just posted about dieties. telling me to go fuck myself is a better response than "what are you talking about"

 

[MamaRice]

they're not vague at all and you just posted about dieties. telling me to go fuck myself is a better response than "what are you talking about"

So you literally didn't read any of that if you actually want to say

"you just posted about deities".

You do realize that anyone on this forum can read both of our posts and see this right? I posted many historical references to REAL peoples in REAL cultures and some of them included deities.

I also am absolutely positive that if I told you to go fuck yourself, I would be banned. I'm trying to have a conversation with you.

You're clearly out of your element and this is getting sad.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

You're clearly out of your element and this is getting sad.

you didnt post real people you posted vague instances where something could have or not have happened in a culture. if im being vague then so are you.

 

[MamaRice]

you didn't post real people you posted vague instances where something could have or not have happened in a culture. if im being vague then so are you.

These are actual historical references of real groups of people that we KNOW existed and have been documented. Not "could have". Did.

If you seriously want to start claiming that all of this history isn't real, and we don't have evidence of these things and all of this is just conjecture....

Well, good luck. That is a battle I'm very willing to have.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

These are actual historical references of real groups of people that we KNOW existed and have been documented. Not "could have". Did.

well if you didnt know what my original point is then you dont know what your point is now. youre just arguing for the sake of it.... so i win?

 

[5secondrulesucks]

out of your element by any chance?

 

[Helios]

Traditional gender classifications of male and female are OBSOLETE.

I don't see how these make it obsolete. Especially when many of the cultures you mentioned had multiple "roles" mainly as means to ridicule men that weren't "manly" enough, women that didn't want to take the responsibilities of a mother OR in order to serve a deity. What you are quoting is actually what's obsolete in today's western culture.

 

[MamaRice]

well if you didnt know what my original point is then you dont know what your point is now. youre just arguing for the sake of it.... so i win?

out of your element by any chance?

...I'm trying very hard to not accuse anyone of trolling during my time here. You're making it very difficult right now.

The point of yours that I was arguing against was that this gender debate as a social issue, is a new phenomenon. This is false, as I have categorically shown, this is a "debate" that has been going on in many different completely separate cultures for thousands of years. And in some of those cultures they were far more accepting of non-conforming gender than we are today.

I don't see how these make it obsolete. Especially when many of the cultures you mentioned had multiple "roles" mainly as means to ridicule men that weren't "manly" enough, women that didn't want to take the responsibilities of a mother OR in order to serve a deity. What you are quoting is actually what's obsolete in today's western culture.

That is a wild interpretation that you are making, very much in service of beliefs you already have. I can admit that I'm reading the evidence similarly, but to support my side. I think we can both admit we are biased in this conversation.

With all due respect, I think your reading is inaccurate. Really, I want to try and understand your position.

In these very different cultures, many of which never interacted during these times, different roles were created as a means of "ridicule" (you know, if you completely gloss over all the examples I included of those roles and identity being completely accepted, and sometimes even revered.), because they needed classifications for the people who didn't want to be men, and the people who didn't want to women. You are using a very modern lens, and a very clearly biased interpretation of gender, to make a blanket statement about the past.

I can admit, that the concepts of gender as we know them were probably wildly different in many of these cultures so I really can't say what exactly they have have believed. You, on the other hand, are so sure that the roles of male and female are completely rock solid, and any deviation of that throughout history is simply a little fixer up that they threw in because they didn't know what to do with those people.

You're completely ignoring any of the agency that many of these cultures afforded the people who chose to identify themselves by those roles. And the cultures where they didn't. I didn't include many of the examples like the male pharaohs that lived as women in Egypt, or the female pharaoh who lived as a man and was killed for it.

Personally, from the perspective of an actual trans person, who has actual gender dysphoria, I'm gonna choose to assume that all this evidence points to other cultures feeling the need to indentify groups of people that the very rigid and binary classifications of male and female don't encompass.

You're making a common argument that is often made against many trans people today, and is actual a constant debate in the community. Gender roles, shouldn't be rigid. Women don't have to be stay at home moms and men don't have to be the ones to provide. Women don't have to wear lipstick and dresses and men can like fashion and the color pink. So, I imagine the argument you'd be leading to would be, why do trans people feel the need to express themselves by those rigid gender roles?

And the answer, which is actually quite simple, is that not all trans people do. There are many transwoman that act in a typically "masculine" way, like "guy" stuff. And transmen, that might have in a feminine way. Just like there are cis men that are feminine, and cis women that are masculine.

I don't know which or if any of these cultures were able to arrive to the conclusions that gender roles are obsolete, but a lot of those cultures also had those roles to maintain society and survive. But they often times broke away from them, and there plenty of historical evidence to support that as well.

I already made my assertion. The wide spectrum of gender is a result of both biological and social construct. There is going to be SOME element of transwomen wanting to feel feminine, not all of them, but when you know you are a woman on the inside, and society says "women should be like this this this this and this" then it stands to reason that that might be how you choose to express yourself, especially when not only does society say "women should be like this this this this and this." but it ENCOURAGES women to be that way.

Would you say to a woman "why do you wear makeup? Women don't have to wear makeup." No, of course not. So why would you say it to a transwoman? She's a woman too. And as a woman, she can make the choice of if she wants to wear makeup or not.

And a lot of women like to wear makeup. There are many reason for that. Guess what, shocker, that includes transwomen too.

Because they are women!

 

[MamaRice]

You realize that there are many cis women alive today that are still pressured to act a certain way to express their femininity, right? Many girls and women feel the need to wear dresses, lipstick, cook and take care of babies because society and possibly other things as well, instills that those are the things that express femininity.

Why would that only apply to cis women and not transwomen? Why is it okay for a cis women to freely choose to wear dresses and be girly if she wants, but if a transwoman does it she's living by "rigid gender roles that are obsolete"?

The incredibly simple answer is that trans people, just like cis people, should be free to express gender roles as they wish. The difficulty is comes from the fact that they often do not overly have the appearance of their gender, and because being identified as their gender is a very important thing to many of them, they are more likely to express femininity in the ways that society usually says "this is how you express femininity", and just like with many cis girls and women, some of them like it, and some of them don't.

There are quite a few trans women that wear dresses and act girly even though they don't want to, because they want to be accepted as a woman. If they were biolgically female and looked female, they could act in a really guyish way, and then they'd get called a "tomboy"! People would say they are mannish, or might be a lesbian! There's no winning! But no one would ever say to them "You are not a woman."

They would say "You are a woman, so act like it."

 

[Corderlain]

Who cares? Trans people have it rough, sure. They're less than 1 percent of the population. Who cares? Tired of catering to people who bitch the loudest. We all have it bad in our own way. If you don't like who you are go get it changed, and then shut up. People get so worked up about stupid bullshit.by all means, fly your freak flag when you're behind closed doors, but if you're in a public space stop trying to standout or cause a scene and use the bathroom that matches what's in your pants. Simple.

 

[MamaRice]

Who cares? Trans people have it rough, sure. They're less than 1 percent of the population. Who cares? Tired of catering to people who bitch the loudest. We all have it bad in our own way. If you don't like who you are go get it changed, and then shut up. People get so worked up about stupid bullshit.

Well as long as you aren't supporting politicians that want to ban me from the military or keep me from using my chosen bathroom, and you won't misgender me, you won't have much of a problem with me.

In all honesty and sincerity, I appreciate you being willing to admit that you just want people to shut up about it. I wish many others here had your "courage".

 

[Corderlain]

You don't get to use your chosen bathroom. If you have a dick use the men's. If not use the women's. Or just use the family restroom that most places have now.

Furthermore, I'm fine with trans people being banned from the military. Much higher risk of suicide and mental illness. Need to be sound in mind and body and they're clearly not. A perfect world would work on a case by case basis but I'm not willing to spend my own money or the govts for such screening.


I guess potentially if it's something that's not caught in the usual psych evals it might be OK but there is always that doubt.

I'm rambling. I don't think the military is ever the best choice for someone who is trans, but if they really want it and meet standard physical and mental requirements then sure why not.

 

[Redneckerz]

I suspect after reading your post that you already have a strong opinion on this, and if Cindi doesn't give you the answer you like, you will disregard it. But if she gives you the answer you want, which I know she will because I know Cindi, you will feel vindicated.

I know you didn't ask me (and I know why), but my answer is no there are not a "lot" of people in the trans community who aren't in it for "valid reasons".

Spoiler alert: Cindi is going to agree with you and say yes, there are.

Hi there MamaRice! Welcome to appear on GAF. You are quite the prolific poster Tell me, what is your history with Cindi?
There are some interesting opinions thrown around here in this thread regarding transgender people and what it is to be one. Is it a mental disorder? I am inclined to say it is not, but i do agree that transtioning or coming out can be a temporary solution to what effectively are deeper issues. I think it should always be emphatized that coming out as a trans is, because of the general society's view on this is less than positive on this, a challenge by itself. You have trans people who come out as one and are mentally healthy, but you also have trans people who transition, but already prior to that (and even prior to coming out) they have had a history of depression, loneliness, and what not. <- This is what i have observed on most commentaries about trans people. They are seen as troubled minds and with tragic events like Chloe Sagal (Which is a topic by itself), that idea gets strengthened.

I don't think every trans person is a troubled mind or that they all have had problematic life histories before they came out as trans or transitioned. I do think that for a lot of trans people (With many realizing that they are trans in adolescence) they have had mental hardships before, and continue to have these even when as a trans person. That isnt so much a case of youngsters finding out who they are, but more that said youngsters still suffer mentally, whether it is due to society's view, prior history, or other. This in my eyes is where a better understanding needs to arise. Everyone wants to rise from caterpillar to butterfly, i don't see why certain butterflies (like trans people) need to be shunned for essentially having other colours than other butterflies.

I come from Europe, The Netherlands specifically. To me, Trans people are just like everyone else. They are normal. And that in my eyes is how they should be treated. As normal, equal people. But at the same time, society should not ignore the mental strains trans people face when coming out or transistioning (For the most part, because like i said, i don't think every trans person is a troubled mind). They should get aid, and more importantly, understanding. As i reckon the latter part is what's the most absent in society in general.

 

[LordRaptor]

Well as long as you aren't supporting politicians that want to ban me from the military or keep me from using my chosen bathroom, and you won't misgender me, you won't have much of a problem with me.

Again, I agree to some extent;
A military ban is ludicrous. Lots of jobs claim to be "the toughest job", but its clearly a soldier who has the toughest job, and as long as US expenditure is grossly weighted in favour of military spending over social welfare, its a good way to provide things like insurance and education to those who would otherwise never be able to afford it. Like... if you want people to give up their lives for you, don't be so fucking picky about who's willing to do that.

Bathrooms is a place where individual freedom clashes with others freedom; for obvious reasons, they can be considered safe spaces, and there is a question as to what extent someones right to express their identity should be allowed to remove a safe space.
The obvious answer is to provide unisex bathrooms, which bypasses that particular issue, but the issue would still remain for things like jobs in womens shelters which are usually exempt from discrimination laws for precisely the reasons safe spaces exist.
In the public sector I don't know how policing bathrooms would be enforced, but a non-discriminate hiring policy should already have made allowances for that, and people unhappy with - say - unisex bathrooms shouldn't apply for that job anyway if they have a problem with non-discriminate policies.
In the private sector, I don't think the owner of a business should be compelled to accommodate such a policy, but in the private sector things would probably even themselves out anyway; people with no problem who they take a piss next to will be fine with unisex toilets (which probably work out cheaper in the long run anyway, to merge two existing rooms and only require upkeep on one) and people who do have a problem can find establishments that uphold traditional designated spaces.

 

[MamaRice]

Hi there MamaRice! Welcome to appear on GAF. You are quite the prolific poster Tell me, what is your history with Cindi?
There are some interesting opinions thrown around here in this thread regarding transgender people and what it is to be one. Is it a mental disorder? I am inclined to say it is not, but i do agree that transtioning or coming out can be a temporary solution to what effectively are deeper issues. I think it should always be emphatized that coming out as a trans is, because of the general society's view on this is less than positive on this, a challenge by itself. You have trans people who come out as one and are mentally healthy, but you also have trans people who transition, but already prior to that (and even prior to coming out) they have had a history of depression, loneliness, and what not. <- This is what i have observed on most commentaries about trans people. They are seen as troubled minds and with tragic events like Chloe Sagal (Which is a topic by itself), that idea gets strengthened.

I don't think every trans person is a troubled mind or that they all have had problematic life histories before they came out as trans or transitioned. I do think that for a lot of trans people (With many realizing that they are trans in adolescence) they have had mental hardships before, and continue to have these even when as a trans person. That isnt so much a case of youngsters finding out who they are, but more that said youngsters still suffer mentally, whether it is due to society's view, prior history, or other. This in my eyes is where a better understanding needs to arise. Everyone wants to rise from caterpillar to butterfly, i don't see why certain butterflies (like trans people) need to be shunned for essentially having other colours than other butterflies.

I come from Europe, The Netherlands specifically. To me, Trans people are just like everyone else. They are normal. And that in my eyes is how they should be treated. As normal, equal people. But at the same time, society should not ignore the mental strains trans people face when coming out or transistioning (For the most part, because like i said, i don't think every trans person is a troubled mind). They should get aid, and more importantly, understanding. As i reckon the latter part is what's the most absent in society in general.

Fantastic post, and I sincerely appreciate the warm welcome and kind words. You’re a sweetheart and we need more people like you.

 

[MamaRice]

Again, I agree to some extent;
A military ban is ludicrous. Lots of jobs claim to be "the toughest job", but its clearly a soldier who has the toughest job, and as long as US expenditure is grossly weighted in favour of military spending over social welfare, its a good way to provide things like insurance and education to those who would otherwise never be able to afford it. Like... if you want people to give up their lives for you, don't be so fucking picky about who's willing to do that.

Bathrooms is a place where individual freedom clashes with others freedom; for obvious reasons, they can be considered safe spaces, and there is a question as to what extent someones right to express their identity should be allowed to remove a safe space.
The obvious answer is to provide unisex bathrooms, which bypasses that particular issue, but the issue would still remain for things like jobs in womens shelters which are usually exempt from discrimination laws for precisely the reasons safe spaces exist.
In the public sector I don't know how policing bathrooms would be enforced, but a non-discriminate hiring policy should already have made allowances for that, and people unhappy with - say - unisex bathrooms shouldn't apply for that job anyway if they have a problem with non-discriminate policies.
In the private sector, I don't think the owner of a business should be compelled to accommodate such a policy, but in the private sector things would probably even themselves out anyway; people with no problem who they take a piss next to will be fine with unisex toilets (which probably work out cheaper in the long run anyway, to merge two existing rooms and only require upkeep on one) and people who do have a problem can find establishments that uphold traditional designated spaces.

I appreciate your perspective and honestly, this all sounds reasonable to me. Personally, I don’t think you have to make it law that trans people use their chosen bathroom. It should just stay decriminalized.

People who would call the police on a trans person just trying to use the bathroom, or scream at them or yell at them, should be stigmatized.

The reality is that, can it ever be a safe space for them? Well, not if some women are going to attack them or call the police. Not if transmen might (and have) been sexually assaulted while trying to use the bathroom.

It’s so ridiculous that people are afraid of getting sexually abused by trans people when trans people suffer sexual abuse a lot, far more than they commit it.

 

[Redneckerz]

yikes.

This is exactly the kind of reply that gets used elsewhere that does nothing for a conversation.

out of your element by any chance?

Lets not make provocative statements. As a user i find this kind of thing annoying to read, and i would want to ask you to use the report button for these things, thanks

Fantastic post, and I sincerely appreciate the warm welcome and kind words. You’re a sweetheart and we need more people like you.

As for the bolded: Thanks, but don't give me compliments please - My view is just one of many and certainly not better than anyone elses

Trust me it is difficult to articulate this (Even with a rather proficient skill in English) because you can easily make the mistake of saying something wrongful in regards to trans people when your intent is the opposite. And just saying: ''Trans people have prior histories in depression and mental issues'' or ''People going trans dont do so because they feel trans, they do so because it is a solution to whatever problem they have'' (The socalled trans-trenders) would be a transphobic offense on other places, when really, the former is a statement that can be fact checked, and the latter requires more nuance if anything else (Which i hope i wrote down in the prior post!). Even now as i type its troubling to word what i want to say.

Now, do i think that social media/tumblr plays a part in the recognition of trans issues or people finding out/getting influenced by it? Well, sure. In that regard, i notice that its rise, and the discussions among it, are similar to ''social trends'' (And do note that i am not saying that trans people are trans-trenders with this!) from the past, at least here in the NL. We have had the Goth/Emo culture making the rounds on media before, and after that, Pro-Ana sites/users. This is not a comparison as to their lifestyles or their identities, but more that lesser known aspects of life are being brought in the limelight more, both with proponents and opponents.

In that sense, i understand the word Trans-trender, because its the kind of terminology you would associate with the way social media covers these new things. The rest, however, is my view explained in my prior post how i feel on this. I do think that this post is articulated worse than my prior one but i hope i could bring the point across that ive tried to make (Although admittely, its a bit vague).

As for trans people in the military: I understand that in the political climate of the US, this is far more of a hot plate issue than elsewhere, but, and i am just trying to envision the kind of patriottism US citizens usually have: Does it really matter how you identify when you fight for your country? You should be picked because of your skill not because how you look or how you identify, atleast thats my view.*

*I have the same view with the recent rise (Even here) of the opinion that more women need to be in top dog positions at big companies as a way of more balance. Id say: You pick someone who is good at what they do, not because she is female or because you want to strive for more diversity and balance. Gender in that should be completely irrelevant for a job position.**

** Its also why i criticize The Names moderation on ERA so much: Some of these staff members are trans themselves, but are notorious for their less than neutral moderation. In my eyes the same rules should apply there: Pick moderators that are good and neutral in what they do, not because they represent a minority and you want your place to be a beacon of diversity. That sounds crazy to me. (And you can see what good that has led to.)

Now, what was your relationship with Cindi?

 

[MamaRice]

This is exactly the kind of reply that gets used elsewhere that does nothing for a conversation.

Lets not make provocative statements. As a user i find this kind of thing annoying to read, and i would want to ask you to use the report button for these things, thanks


As for the bolded: Thanks, but don't give me compliments please - My view is just one of many and certainly not better than anyone elses

Trust me it is difficult to articulate this (Even with a rather proficient skill in English) because you can easily make the mistake of saying something wrongful in regards to trans people when your intent is the opposite. And just saying: ''Trans people have prior histories in depression and mental issues'' or ''People going trans dont do so because they feel trans, they do so because it is a solution to whatever problem they have'' (The socalled trans-trenders) would be a transphobic offense on other places, when really, the former is a statement that can be fact checked, and the latter requires more nuance if anything else (Which i hope i wrote down in the prior post!). Even now as i type its troubling to word what i want to say.

Now, do i think that social media/tumblr plays a part in the recognition of trans issues or people finding out/getting influenced by it? Well, sure. In that regard, i notice that its rise, and the discussions among it, are similar to ''social trends'' (And do note that i am not saying that trans people are trans-trenders with this!) from the past, at least here in the NL. We have had the Goth/Emo culture making the rounds on media before, and after that, Pro-Ana sites/users. This is not a comparison as to their lifestyles or their identities, but more that lesser known aspects of life are being brought in the limelight more, both with proponents and opponents.

In that sense, i understand the word Trans-trender, because its the kind of terminology you would associate with the way social media covers these new things. The rest, however, is my view explained in my prior post how i feel on this. I do think that this post is articulated worse than my prior one but i hope i could bring the point across that ive tried to make (Although admittely, its a bit vague).

As for trans people in the military: I understand that in the political climate of the US, this is far more of a hot plate issue than elsewhere, but, and i am just trying to envision the kind of patriottism US citizens usually have: Does it really matter how you identify when you fight for your country? You should be picked because of your skill not because how you look or how you identify, atleast thats my view.*

*I have the same view with the recent rise (Even here) of the opinion that more women need to be in top dog positions at big companies as a way of more balance. Id say: You pick someone who is good at what they do, not because she is female or because you want to strive for more diversity and balance. Gender in that should be completely irrelevant for a job position.**

** Its also why i criticize The Names moderation on ERA so much: Some of these staff members are trans themselves, but are notorious for their less than neutral moderation. In my eyes the same rules should apply there: Pick moderators that are good and neutral in what they do, not because they represent a minority and you want your place to be a beacon of diversity. That sounds crazy to me. (And you can see what good that has led to.)

Now, what was your relationship with Cindi?

Now you’ve lost me with this post.

Sorry, you entitled to your whole “trans-trender” idea that so many use to dismiss us, but I just don’t think it’s a large phenomenon at all worth even expressing as something that needs concern. Earlier in the thread, I post some stats on trans population.

In America at least, only 0.6 percent self-identify as trans. That was as of 2016. And in 2011, 71% they haven’t told anyone out of fear of abuse and social backlash from friends, family and peers. There are far more trans people who are not comfortable saying there are trans than there are people saying they are trans when they really aren’t.

And I don’t have a relationship with Cindi lol. I’m just very familiar with her.

Also stats have shown they companies with diversity do better, with productivity, creativity and employee morale. Yeah, in a perfect world, best person for the job, etc. etc, but the reality is that some people have support systems and a much larger head start that many do not. Even when those people feel like that don’t have any support, they still have more than some other people. For example, I can say I have more support than someone living in a third world country, or someone with a disability.

Specifically about men and women, I don’t see what’s wrong with watch equal numbers of both and pushing for that? Personally. But I’m not gonna refuse to work somewhere where I’m the only woman. I just might be uncomfortable sometimes. I’ve already worked many jobs where I’m the only trans person lol.

 

[LordRaptor]

I appreciate your perspective and honestly, this all sounds reasonable to me. Personally, I don’t think you have to make it law that trans people use their chosen bathroom. It should just stay decriminalized.

People who would call the police on a trans person just trying to use the bathroom, or scream at them or yell at them, should be stigmatized.

The reality is that, can it ever be a safe space for them? Well, not if some women are going to attack them or call the police. Not if transmen might (and have) been sexually assaulted while trying to use the bathroom.

It’s so ridiculous that people are afraid of getting sexually abused by trans people when trans people suffer sexual abuse a lot, far more than they commit it.

I think its something that will shake itself out eventually; if as a private business owner you're going to have a policy of ID checking customers using the bathroom, it is only fair that you would display a sign to that effect on the entrance so people are aware that that is policy.
If as a trans person you see that sign - or even as a non-trans person who might be mistakenly perceived as trans - you know you are going to get shit, and you won't use that business.
Hell, you probably don't want to give your money to that business anyway.

 

[Corderlain]

Equal opportunity not not equal outcome. Not fair to push assistance for 0.6 percent of the population because they have issues. Everyone has issues.

 

[MamaRice]

Equal opportunity not not equal outcome. Not fair to push assistance for 0.6 percent of the population because they have issues. Everyone has issues.

I’m sorry it is way too early in the morning for me to argue against someone who doesn’t agree with affirmative action.

Yes, let’s just not help anyone and pretend the world is one big meritocracy and everything will work out fine and if it doesn’t too bad life‘s not fair.

Yawn.

 

[Corderlain]

I’m sorry it is way too early in the morning for me to argue against someone who doesn’t agree with affirmative action.

Yes, let’s just not help anyone and pretend the world is one big meritocracy and everything will work out fine and if it doesn’t too bad life‘s not fair.

Yawn.

Considering it is discrimination at its core I'm still surprised anyone would support it.

 

[MamaRice]

Considering it is discrimination at its core I'm still surprised anyone would support it.

And I’m sure you’ve done a lot of research and read a lot of scholarly articles to arrive to that conclusion, all while keeping an open mind and staying empathetic to the realities of marginalized communities. You have a nice day.

I’ve got an application to fill out for a trans filmmaking fellowship.

 

[Redneckerz]

Now you’ve lost me with this post.

Sorry, you entitled to your whole “trans-trender” idea that so many use to dismiss us, but I just don’t think it’s a large phenomenon at all worth even expressing as something that needs concern. Earlier in the thread, I post some stats on trans population.

Yeah this is what i mean with articulating With trans-trender, i am not referring to the dismissal of trans people who transitioned. If i have to better word it, eh.. i would say that... Ach, i really can't articulate this. Lets just say i dont dismiss anyone for who is trans, is searching for who he/she really is and/or thinks of transitioning/coming out. People are people.

In America at least, only 0.6 percent self-identify as trans. That was as of 2016. And in 2011, 71% they haven’t told anyone out of fear of abuse and social backlash from friends, family and peers. There are far more trans people who are not comfortable saying there are trans than there are people saying they are trans when they really aren’t.

I am aware of the numbers in the US and it is concerning. But as you can tell, for the overwhelming majority its a thing they have never heard of. They don't know how to approach it. So, it should be made approachable. From both sides.

Not to bring up The Names view on ERA regarding this, but what you don't want to do is, as a trans person, be militant and aggressive against anyone not understanding your view. If people don't know where you come from, be invitive. Approach the unknown majority with transparency and understanding, and not with suspicion and aggression. And this should also count for the majority of people that don't know about trans people. They aren't strange humans, they are humans just like you and me. This is not an attack on your behavior, in case you were thinking this

And I don’t have a relationship with Cindi lol. I’m just very familiar with her.

Oh i am sorry, you got me wrongly here! With relationship, this is a another word for connection. What is your connection (Your relationship, sort to say, not your actual relationship if any!) with Cindi?

Also stats have shown they companies with diversity do better, with productivity, creativity and employee morale. Yeah, in a perfect world, best person for the job, etc. etc, but the reality is that some people have support systems and a much larger head start that many do not.

Agreed. If you can help people get a job, they should. Jobs are good for working with rules, social interaction, and what not.

What i was referring to with the ''gender should not matter when you are skilled for the job is more in regards to top positions. That being said, ofcourse i am for equal appreciation. Ill talk with anyone. Talked to a conductor briefly on the train this week (And this group of people sees a lot of violence) but i also do so with the garbage person, mail man/woman, and so on.. Do note, this is not a case of look at how good i am doing, for me its rather natural to ask people how their day is or the weather. You can tell it lifts people's spirits up when they get addressed, get understood, get recognized. Plus, making small talk as far as i am aware of still does not cost any money, so why not?

 

[MamaRice]

Yeah this is what i mean with articulating With trans-trender, i am not referring to the dismissal of trans people who transitioned. If i have to better word it, eh.. i would say that... Ach, i really can't articulate this. Lets just say i dont dismiss anyone for who is trans, is searching for who he/she really is and/or thinks of transitioning/coming out. People are people.


Oh i am sorry, you got me wrongly here! With relationship, this is a another word for connection. What is your connection (Your relationship, sort to say, not your actual relationship if any!) with Cindi?


Agreed. If you can help people get a job, they should. Jobs are good for working with rules, social interaction, and what not.

What i was referring to with the ''gender should not matter when you are skilled for the job is more in regards to top positions. That being said, ofcourse i am for equal appreciation. Ill talk with anyone. Talked to a conductor briefly on the train this week (And this group of people sees a lot of violence) but i also do so with the garbage person, mail man/woman, and so on.. Do note, this is not a case of look at how good i am doing, for me its rather natural to ask people how their day is or the weather. You can tell it lifts people's spirits up when they get addressed, get understood, get recognized. Plus, making small talk as far as i am aware of still does not cost any money, so why not?

I just remember Cindi from GAF and Era.

And The 2011 National Transgender Discrimination Survey found 61 percent of trans and gender nonconforming respondents reported having medically transitioned, and 33 percent said they had surgically transitioned. About 14 percent of trans women and 72 percent of trans men said they don't ever want full genital construction surgery. (Note: FTM surgery is four times as expensive and not as reliable)

There are many trans people who will never transition. Then some people make the argument “well if you want to be identified as a girl then you should at least dress like one and try to girl yourself up” OK well then some people need to stop criticizing and questioning trans people for conforming to gender roles so that they can be accepted.

This “problem” of trans identity being trendy and a ton of people just claiming it because it’s the trendy hip thing to do is a boogeyman. A myth. Incredibly small number of people do this.

Meanwhile there are far more trans people who are getting abused and murdered or afraid to come out, or unable to get medical assistance, or getting banned from the military, or kicked out of bathrooms, or ridiculed endlessly. But people don’t care about that.

A large majority of trans people keep it hidden from everyone including their own family and friends. How is that “trendy”?

 

[Corderlain]

And I’m sure you’ve done a lot of research and read a lot of scholarly articles to arrive to that conclusion, all while keeping an open mind and staying empathetic to the realities of marginalized communities. You have a nice day.

I’ve got an application to fill out for a trans filmmaking fellowship.

Is your argument really "It's discrimination for a good cause." because there's a Benjamin Franklin quite you should check out.

 

[Airola]

Personally I subscribe to the theory that gender is a constantly evolving spectrum, rooted in both biological and social construct, and the large amount of variety of identity comes from a need to express oneself in a human culture that puts emphasis on labels and puts a LOT of emphasis on binary gender roles in nearly all aspects of life. In other words, we wouldn't need all these different terms if people stopped saying things like "THERE ARE ONLY THIS AMOUNT OF GENDERS. YOU ARE ONE OF THESE THINGS AND YOU HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE. YOU MUST BE CLASSIFIED AS ONE OF THESE THINGS AND IT WILL AFFECT YOU IN EVERY AREA OF YOUR LIFE."

I think people can think they are whoever and whatever they want to be. But when this right to express oneself is brought to a level where the news claim "a man got pregnant and gave birth to a child" and when people start to claim males can get pregnant too - and at worst tell people who claim otherwise are ignorant or transphobic - I think things have gone off the rails.

 

[Redneckerz]

I just remember Cindi from GAF and Era.

I see. PS: I added some bits to my prior post

There are many trans people who will never transition. Then some people make the argument “well if you want to be identified as a girl then you should at least dress like one and try to girl yourself up” OK well then some people need to stop criticizing and questioning trans people for conforming to gender roles so that they can be accepted.

I would not say this, but this does raise me a question: Would be considered harmful to ask if someone is trans or not if they are not transitioned and they don't dress as such? In my opinion, i think as long as both parties are comfortable, or atleast the person in question (who is trans) knows they are respected and appreciated, the societal wall of telling/not telling is less of a hassle.*

*Ill accept them either way regardless.

Heck one of my old school pals (Not my friend anymore) turns out he is a drag queen and i reckon he likes aspects of trans aswell. I don't shun him for it, hell, he looks amazing as a drag queen.

This “problem” of trans identity being trendy and a ton of people just claiming it because it’s the trendy hip thing to do is a boogeyman. A myth. Incredibly small number of people do this.

Hence why i stopped articulating my point, because that was not what i wanted to bring up and i am sorry it got interpreted as such :/

Meanwhile there are far more trans people who are getting abused and murdered or afraid to come out, or unable to get medical assistance, or getting banned from the military, or kicked out of bathrooms, or ridiculed endlessly. But people don’t care about that.

Hey, that's not true. Just because it is an unknown to many does not mean people don't care. It also means that violence against that unknown is a big no no. Even just leaving out the 0.6% figure here, we are all just people. Why abuse people that classify as unknown to the majority of people? Why not approach them and have small talk? (This is about the majority, not trans people).

As for the US healthcare system: That could be a topic by itself

Dont worry Rice - I support you as trans

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Interesting thread. This was basically what I first thought when I heard the news, that it could make getting help more difficult for some. I guess the idea is to reduce the stigma that is involved with the term mental illness but in doing so you're kind of reinforcing the idea that mental illness is shameful.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

In a world where political decisions often have a corporate agenda, I'm puzzled why the trans community isn't fighting against this.

On the surface, it's a nice feel-good resolution (completely unbacked by any scientific or medical consensus) that might possibly maybe improve things when it comes to discrimination or public treatment.

But I can't help but feel this is done to head-off and prevent trans treatments and surgeries from being added to eligible insurance recipients. Where's the outcry against padding the corporate pocketbook?

 

[Deleted member 713885]

Few things/questions.

With regards to military and trans issues.
Now, from what I've read heres the issues I see myself.
A soldier signs on for 4 years. This soldier says hes trans. The soldier is sidelined basically for therapy for some time to see if they qualify for surgery. If all is well the soldier the begins hormone treatment.
These steps sideline the soldier from active combat duty for a year or more right?
Soldier has surgery. Again, sidelined.
So this soldier identifies as trans and basically spends 3/4 or more of their active duty time sidelined.
If this soldier does have surgery...where and how does this soldier dilate on the front line?
20 hours a day on guard in day Afghanistan..duty..filthy..and they have to dilate?
Sounds like I could sign up for the military as a transwoman, not be on really any active duty..get all my needs met psychological, pharmaceutical, and surgery wise via military benefits, perhaps spend my time in a cushy job while others are in the trenches...then get out have my VA benefits, money for school etc.. all because I was active duty for 1/10th of my service time.


Bit on/off topic. Most of my bleeding heart bathroom advocate people I know had kids over the last 3 or 4 years.
Almost, if not all of them, who had baby girls over the last few years have had their views on transwomen in the same restroom change.
Any discussion now on the issue and I see a look of aggression flood their face and them sometimes talk about how a transwoman in the same bathroom as their young daughters would not be acceptable.

Also..
What about this subculture of transwomen who are angry at lesbians for not finding them to be viable sexual partners?
This idea (and excuse me for being crude) that a lesbian should over look their 'lady dick' and date/fuck them?
Also the anger put on lesbian porn stars, lesbian porn directors, etc.. that's its bigoted for them not to shoot scenes with transwomen?

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Cindi Mayweather

Do you, as a transwomen, feel their is a large growing number of transwomen due to males with mental illness? Take for instance autism and such?
Like The Games Done Quickly type or Chris-Chan?
Like the millions of twitter users who's bio says Transwoman/my pronouns/ then goes into their wierd political affiliation, kinks etc.. then almost ALWAYS has some furry pics mixed with poorly drawn DeviantArt "Chubby transwoman with leg hair". Not to mention every hour, on the hour over the top tweets.
The idea also of men who have no luck with women using it as a tool to get close to them?

Also do you see what could be described as a rise of "Trans-trenders"
I have a teenage son and we moved to an affluent area and he tells me theirs numerous transwomen in his highschool. He says its like 'hip' currently.

Also has a friends tom-boy daughter who was 11 tell him she was trans. She said she likes girls, doesn't want to dress like a boy (cut her hair and such) but likes girls. She said she isnt a lesbian tho and instead is trans.

Guess what I'm saying is..do you think theirs alot of people in the trans community who arent in it for valid reasons?

Yes, absolutely. There are many in it for the wrong reasons. People are literally saying they're trans because they aren't "regular boys" or "regular girls". It's also why I think children should not be administered hormones. It turns the community into a joke and is potentially child abuse. Hormone blockers are fine though. If they still feels that way at 17, then go ahead and take the hormones at 18 on their own money.

Seeing lots of girls get into the community, pretending to be trans with their trans trender bullshit. Most trans trenders in our experience tend to be girls with low self esteem who want to be a "part" of something.

It's gotten to the point where they even join trap groups and insist "I'm a trap too lol" even though it's a cis girl. Bunch of attention whores.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

It's a Cindi thread. Get used to it.

You literally brought up guns. Get off my tranny nuts.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

you can not get to the bottom of it. There is no explanation except some people have gone so fucking crazy to be different that they use everythinng to separate themselves as much as possible. When you look at some of the gender defintions we have today or some people beleive to have I just think WTF

For sexuality alone:
Allosexual- When you are not asexual (attracted to at least one gender)
Androsexual- Being attracted to masculine gender presentation
Gynosexual- Being attracted to feminine gender presentation

Perioriented- When your sexual and romantic orientation targets the same gender (for example being heteromantic and heterosexual or being biromantic and bisexual)
Varioriented- When your sexual and romantic orientations do not target the same set of genders (for example being heteromantic and bisexual or being homoromantic and pansexual)
Heteronormative- The belief that hetersexuality is the norm and that sex, gender, sexuality, and gender roles all align


WHAT

And the gender ones....

Genderfluid- Moving between genders or having a fluctuating gender identity
Agender- Not identifying with any gender. Sometimes referred to as being genderless or gendervoid
Bigender- Identifying as two genders, commonly (but not exclusively) male and female. Sometimes you feel like both genders at the same time and sometimes you fluctuate.
Polygender- When you identify with multiple genders at once. Sometimes referred to as multigender.
Neutrois- When you identify as agender, neither male nor female, and/or genderless
Gender Apathetic- When you really do not identify nor care about any particular gender. You are fine passing off as whatever and you really do not have an opinion towards your own gender.
Androgyne- This term overlaps a lot between gender identification and presentation. It can be used to describe others and as an identification. This term is used to describe people who are neither male nor female or are both male and female. Basically anyone who does not fit into a binary gender category.
Intergender- Somebody who's gender is somewhere between male and female
Demigender- When you feel as if you are one part a defined gender and one or more parts an undefined gender. Terms can include demigirl, demiboy, demiagender, ect.
Greygender- Somebody with a weak gender identification of themselves
Aporagender- Somebody with a strong gender identification of themselves that is non-binary
Maverique- A non-binary gender that exists outside of the orthodox social bounds of gender
Novigender- A gender that is super complex and impossible to describe in a single term
Designated gender- A gender assigned at birth based on an individuals sex and/or what gender society percieves a person to be

This is where the attackhelicopter meme comes from....

Also waht do you call this?


Look you can be what you want but do not force your believess on others.

We have max 4 gender:
Male
Female
Transmen
Transwomen

Thats it and even that could be debatable....

Exactly. These NB queers have taken over the community. Please note that this shit is relatively new and that many of us "regular" (as regular as you can get) trans people don't humor any of that tumblr awfulness. I refuse to call you zir.

There are only two genders.

This morning I ate toast and it gave me autigender (autism gender).

I'm a girl and I like baseball so I'm gender non confirming. Can girls wear baseball hats???

Both of you aren't reading the actual words I'm saying. I already mentioned it. We know that there have been people of non conforming gender all throughout history going back thousands of years. It is absolutely no true to say that it's "something new"



















Clearly this is a CONSTANT debate over many cultures going back centuries.

RIght now, it's manifest in our internet culture as everyone deciding their own identity. But the root is the same. Traditional gender classifications of male and female are OBSOLETE.

So this is why you identify as trans and not as a man or a woman. Good Lord. What is wrong with you?

Obselete? This is why no one takes trannies seriously. Because these new kids are on some fucking "gender must be abolished" bs. Good grief. Now thanks to twitter and tumblr almost every tranny is a damn radical now. God I hate the internet.

What about this subculture of transwomen who are angry at lesbians for not finding them to be viable sexual partners?
This idea (and excuse me for being crude) that a lesbian should over look their 'lady dick' and date/fuck them?
Also the anger put on lesbian porn stars, lesbian porn directors, etc.. that's its bigoted for them not to shoot scenes with transwomen?

Notice that many of those trans women act like incels that are owed sex? If someone's not into you they're not into you. Deal with it. Yet they claim they're feminist and don't respect a cis woman's choices and rights. Disgusting. Throw feminism in the garbage.

 

[Redneckerz]

Cindi Mayweather

A lot of what you have said is something i can understand aswell (And seeing your replies over at ERA with fellow transgender people). Like i said, i don't think being militant and aggressive as a trans, that is, trying to reshape the world completely without understanding is a reachable goal, or even something that should be strived at. What i said in my first post, that is what i think and feel about trans people. To me, they are normal.

I hope my initial post was one that could gather your appreciation However, judging from your replies and Rice's i notice that the both of you have a different angle/views on things, and both being trans themselves. Is it perhaps possible that, instead of challenging other trans views, to work together towards the same cause?

Lastly, may i notify you that NewGAF has a multiquote feature? Just click the ''+quote'' button for each quote you want to keep, at the bottom of the page a button named ''Insert quotes'' will appear. Click it and you can quote multiple at once. This is just in case you were unaware of this feature do to your recent return on GAF.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I'm sorry if I seemed too heated up there but this topic drives me up a fucking wall.

However, judging from your replies and Rice's i notice that the both of you have a different angle/views on things, and both being trans themselves. Is it perhaps possible that, instead of challenging other trans views, to work together towards the same cause?

I'd like to see that happen. But our difference seem to not be able to find a middle and my concerns are often dismissed as "transphobic" by people on her side.

 

[Dunki]

I'm sorry if I seemed too heated up there but this topic drives me up a fucking wall.
.

I can totally understand this when something that you are and have to deal with everytime and then have to witness what these radical people are doing how they drive everyone into such a victimhood complex . It must be fucking frustrating.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

OP, if you don't mind me asking:

There has been a rising sentiment of using "I was born this way" as a justification for behavior or for advocacy. And in it's proper context this is perfectly just and right: a person born with blindness or born with a certain color skin or born with ambiguous or "incorrect" genitalia should not be mistreated or discriminated against.

But "born this way" has explicit scientific/medical ramifications and we seem to be steamrolling through that particular piece of the equation. From your perspective, what sort of dangers are we opening ourselves up to when we insist we're "born this way" without the scientific backing to help the rest of the world validate our claims?

 

[Redneckerz]

I'm sorry if I seemed too heated up there but this topic drives me up a fucking wall.



I'd like to see that happen. But our difference seem to not be able to find a middle.

I dont think that response is doing well on the editing scale Cindi If you want, i can explain in PM.

I think its important to analyse how and why someone arrives at a certain opinion. I don't think Rice is that indecent, and despite your phrasing, neither do i think the same of you. You both appear reasonable.

What is important to note is that not one opinion is absolute and differences are there for us all to learn from. Without discourse nothing can grow. And that means that in a debate, you should be able to agree or disagree with someone with opposing views - But never to shun down their opinion, especially in serious matters like these, as irrelevant. Look for the things one has in common, and set out for a compromise.

I know i sound like an awful goody two shoes here and i am not going to pretend that i know all the answers or all the views when it comes to this topic (Because really, i don't!) but the last thing i would want to see is that two people of the same minority go into the clinch with one another.

 

[Dunki]

OP, if you don't mind me asking:

There has been a rising sentiment of using "I was born this way" as a justification for behavior or for advocacy. And in it's proper context this is perfectly just and right: a person born with blindness or born with a certain color skin or born with ambiguous or "incorrect" genitalia should not be mistreated or discriminated against.

But "born this way" has explicit scientific/medical ramifications and we seem to be steamrolling through that particular piece of the equation. From your perspective, what sort of dangers are we opening ourselves up to when we insist we're "born this way" without the scientific backing to help the rest of the world validate our claims?

I am not her and I will not answer for her but to me this is missleading yes you are born this way and yes you are a human being but you still have a mental disorder. My cousin is spastika since she was born and she has to deal with it her whole life but she never want pitty she never want to be treated differently she wants to laugh, with people and over her condition and treated the same as everyone esle etc. It is still a genetic defect and thats it.

Again if you want to be more inclusive get rid of the stigmata of mental Illness or Disorder and do not hide this fact because it can discriminate people....

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

OP, if you don't mind me asking:

There has been a rising sentiment of using "I was born this way" as a justification for behavior or for advocacy. And in it's proper context this is perfectly just and right: a person born with blindness or born with a certain color skin or born with ambiguous or "incorrect" genitalia should not be mistreated or discriminated against.

But "born this way" has explicit scientific/medical ramifications and we seem to be steamrolling through that particular piece of the equation. From your perspective, what sort of dangers are we opening ourselves up to when we insist we're "born this way" without the scientific backing to help the rest of the world validate our claims?

I don't know. But for one, it treats our histories like fodder. I was born male. I was socialized as a boy. I was a boy. The people who say were "assigned" a gender, and that they were never their birth sex scare me. It comes across as delusional at best, and dangerous at worse. As said in the thread about race, this opens up dangers because now anyone can claim to be anything because you were too offended at the fact that science considered what you have to be a medical condition.