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One Iraqi's thoughts on the U.S. elections

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Makura

Member
Saturday, October 16, 2004
THE AMERICAN ELECTIONS

Hi Friends,

Actually, the American elections are rather more crucial for us at the moment than our own . That is not to belittle the importance of the latter, but taking a really hard look at the present situation, one cannot escape this conclusion. This statement may annoy a lot of people, but we are not particularly concerned about sensitivities at the moment. The thing is that we have to admit that despite the fact that most emphatically, the majority of the Iraqi people are for the new Iraq, and that the “insurrectionists” do not represent but a small minority, nevertheless the balance of forces on the ground would be seriously upset were it not for the support of the American and allied forces and nations. This small minority is dangerous, desperate, ruthless and absolutely prepared to commit any kind of atrocity to further their aims and vent their spleen, as has been clearly demonstrated almost everyday. They are well financed and connected with parties and interests beyond the border who consider it a matter of life and death to thwart all U.S. efforts and abort this attempt at creating a democratic state in the area. There are even larger international forces at work behind the regional players. So with all these foes it cannot be expected that the fledgling new Iraqi state and the largely peaceful and unarmed people can withstand the assault on their own in the present stage of development. It is a foregone conclusion that any abandonment or retreat would result in the most catastrophic consequences both for the Iraqi people as well as within the context of the wider global war on terrorism. Having said that, it is also important, to ease the burden on the Multi National Forces and keep them as much as possible out of harms way and stop the losses altogether. This can be done by transferring as much of the routine tasks to the Iraqis while keeping the MNF in secure bases from which they can be deployed for strategic tasks. For us, they are a most valuable asset and must be shielded and used only with the utmost care and parsimony. I believe it is possible to devise such a strategy and that it can be implemented.

Now, do we have a right, as Iraqis to express our opinion about the U.S. elections, which are of course an entirely internal affair for the American people? Or are they?
It seems to me, that since this matter is going to have a direct impact on our lives and very existence and since the U.S. government and people have seen fit to intervene and initiate this profound revolution in our country; it would not be extravagant nor incorrect for us even to demand to take part in those elections, rhetorically speaking of course.

So, I have been, personally very attentive to the debates and positions of both candidates, and I have some thoughts which I would like to share with you, my American friends. To start with, Senator Kerry may be a very good man and quite patriotic. Also we have to respect the almost 50% of the American people who lean towards the democrats. I don’t know much about domestic issues in the States so naturally, as might be expected, the position of any Iraqi would be mainly influenced by the issue that most concerns him. Thus, regardless of all the arguments of both candidates the main problem is that President Bush now represents a symbol of defiance against the terrorists and it is a fact, that all the enemies of America, with the terrorists foremost, are hoping for him to be deposed in the upcoming elections. That is not to say that they like the democrats, but that they will take such an outcome as retreat by the American people, and will consequently be greatly encouraged to intensify their assault. The outcome here on the ground in Iraq seems to be almost obvious. In case President Bush loses the election there would be a massive upsurge of violence, in the belief, rightly or wrongly, by the enemy, that the new leadership is more likely to “cut and run” to use the phrase frequently used by some of my readers. And they would try to inflict as heavy casualties as possible on the American forces to bring about a retreat and withdrawal. It is crucial for them to remove this insurmountable obstacle which stands in their way. They fully realize that with continued American and allies’ commitment, they have no hope of achieving anything.

On the other hand if President Bush is reelected, this will prove to them that the American people are not intimidated despite all their brutality, and that their cause is quite futile. Yes there is little doubt that an election victory by President Bush would be a severe blow and a great disappointment for all the terrorists in the World and all the enemies of America. I believe that such an outcome would result in despair and demoralization of the “insurgent elements” here in Iraq, and would lead to the pro-democracy forces gaining the upper hand eventually. Note that we are not saying that President Bush is perfect, nor even that he is better than the Senator, just that the present situation is such that a change of leadership at this crucial point is going to send an entirely wrong message to all the enemies. Unfortunately, it seems to me that many in the U.S. don’t quite appreciate how high the stakes are. The challenge is mortal, and you and we are locked in a War, a National Emergency; and in such circumstances partisan considerations must be of secondary importance. If you lose this war, you are no more, and you will have to withdraw within you boundaries cringing and waiting for terror to strike you in your homeland, afraid to move around, afraid to travel, afraid to do business abroad. You will have to see all your friends abroad annihilated and intimidated and nobody will have any confidence or trust in you anymore. And you will have to watch from far with bitterness the forces of darkness and evil taking over in many parts of this earth, with feelings of impotence and inability to do anything about it. In other words you would lose all credibility, and the fiends of terror and obscurantism would go triumphantly dancing the macabre dance of mayhem and death, and darkness would descend and obliterate the light and the hope. You think I am exaggerating, you think I am being paranoid? I just pray that destiny would not prove all these things; I pray that these horrors will not come to pass. And all this for what? For failing to confront few thousands ex-baathists and demented religious fanatics and some common criminals, concentrated in some rural areas of a country of the size of just one of your states; and that for a nation that has defeated Natzism, Imperial Japan and the Soviet Empire!

Well if Senator Kerry is such a good man, and he may well be, then it would be prudent to wait just another four years to elect him, after the job is done. And if this is interference in your national affairs by a foreigner, I am not going to give you any apology for it.

Salaam

# posted by Alaa : 3:42 PM

http://messopotamian.blogspot.com/2004_10_01_messopotamian_archive.html
 

maharg

idspispopd
Clearly, if Americans exercise their right to vote out the current administration, the terrorists have won. They have scored a victory against democracy ... because... people ... voted against those in ... power....

LOGIC ERROR.
 

Che

Banned
Fine I edited it. I don't see why there should be a 50 replies thread about this, it is well known about how Iraqis feel. Plus the article is like written by a 10 year old.
 

fart

Savant
straws.jpg
 

KingV

Member
Che said:
Fine I edited it. I don't see why there should be a 50 replies thread about this, it is well known about how Iraqis feel. Plus the article is like written by a 10 year old.

He's not a native speaker of English... I bet if you were to write an article in one of the arabic languages, they would also see it as being written as if by a 10 year old.
 

KingV

Member
Miburou said:
There's only one (formal) written Arabic language.

OK, well, I'm not a linguist. Let me rephrase that as "One of the languages spoken in the Middle East" rather than one of the "Arabic Languages". Unless what you're saying is that there's only language primarily in the middle east, but it's just spoken differently?
 

Socreges

Banned
I actually think this person, however suspicious (refers to "Operation Iraq Freedom" at one point), makes a compelling argument regarding the battle for Iraq. Just maybe not all that accurate.

There are two very large elements underneath what he is supposing, but he doesn't acknowledge one. Yes, having Bush replaced may display reluctantcy and even inspire insurgents to continue. But Bush is also what they associate with all that is wrong with America. He is the person, as far as they are concerned, that invaded their country and occupied it. If he is removed, it is not also possible that insurgents would be less vigilant? Or that Kerry could rally the UN or certain powers (ie, Germany) for support, and I *don't* think that is naive, however Bush-supporters may feel. The fact is that Bush hasn't been able to get support in rebuilding because countries have taken a "make your own damn bed" approach that they wouldn't necessarily hold to Kerry.

PS. I think his English is very good, save an unusual use of commas.
 

Miburou

Member
I'm not trying to be a jerk, just providing some info. :)

Of course there are several languages being spoken in the Middle East, such as Arabic, Farsi, Turkish, etc. And furthermore, there are several flavors of spoken Arabic. Someone living in the Gulf might not know what a Moroccan is saying, for example.

But when it comes to formal Arabic (the one used in books, newspapers, speeches, and on the news), there's only one standard. And since Iraq's offical language is Arabic, there would only be one written language.

Again, just clearing things up.
 

Socreges

Banned
efralope said:
like 3-to-1 support of Bush over Kerry among the US military and families...
What is that worth?

Chicken or the egg. Let me tell you: it was the EGG. There is a particularly remarkable amount of pride in America amongst those raised Republican/conservative. They invariably become those that are most willing to serve for their country.
 

Stele

Holds a little red book
Of course the military likes Bush. He has given them a nice post-Cold War antagonist good for possibly the next several decades, and a nice reversal on budget cuts.
 

Alcibiades

Member
Stele said:
Of course the military likes Bush. He has given them a nice post-Cold War antagonist good for possibly the next several decades, and a nice reversal on budget cuts.
so Bush is behind pent-up oppression in the Middle-East, women's torture and human rights atrocities, political prisoners by oil-rich governments, etc... (all of which provide an atmosphere for the upbringing of Islamic extremists to rise from)

the US addiction to oil is decades old and I don't think those voting for John Kerry are going to decide to disown SUV's, start carpooling, using public transporation and hybrids, etc...

Maybe the oil has kept repressive governments in power, but the American people can't complain that it's a war for oil when we won't stop our addiction to it.
 

Che

Banned
KingV said:
He's not a native speaker of English... I bet if you were to write an article in one of the arabic languages, they would also see it as being written as if by a 10 year old.


It's not the language it's the simplicity of his thinking and the ignorance of a 10 year old.
 

Stele

Holds a little red book
efralope said:
so Bush is behind pent-up oppression in the Middle-East, women's torture and human rights atrocities, political prisoners by oil-rich governments, etc... (all of which provide an atmosphere for the upbringing of Islamic extremists to rise from)
...

Sure, if you say so. Even though your post is a nonsequitur, I will say this -- Bush doesn't understand Iraq (or Islamic culture in general) in the same way Macartney and England didn't understand China in 1793. Failure was pretty much fated in hindsight.

BTW, what does pent-up oppression mean?
 

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
efralope said:
like 3-to-1 support of Bush over Kerry among the US military and families...


What a stupid point. The military has always been pro-Republican, as it has traditionally been the Democrat's standpoint to reduce spending on the military and refocus that money on domestic issues (see: Clinton). Thus, the Republicans will always gain the support of the military.
 

Firest0rm

Member
I wouldn't expect a single American to understand his point of view. Not even a single Westerner. I feel the same way as he does, infact alot do. And no don't expect me to bring out some poll. I'm saying this from my own personal experience with my own people.
 

Chrono

Banned
moron said:
If you lose this war, you are no more, and you will have to withdraw within you boundaries cringing and waiting for terror to strike you in your homeland, afraid to move around, afraid to travel, afraid to do business abroad. You will have to see all your friends abroad annihilated and intimidated and nobody will have any confidence or trust in you anymore. And you will have to watch from far with bitterness the forces of darkness and evil taking over in many parts of this earth, with feelings of impotence and inability to do anything about it. In other words you would lose all credibility, and the fiends of terror and obscurantism would go triumphantly dancing the macabre dance of mayhem and death, and darkness would descend and obliterate the light and the hope.

:lol

This sounds like it's written by a bush supporter with too much time to waste.


Firest0rm said:
I wouldn't expect a single American to understand his point of view. Not even a single Westerner. I feel the same way as he does, infact alot do. And no don't expect me to bring out some poll. I'm saying this from my own personal experience with my own people.

Do you LIVE in iraq? [/rolleyes]
 

Chrono

Banned
Firest0rm said:
I don't, but my family does, and my father goes there every year to see how the situation is.

And according to your family/father most iraqies love the americans and want them to stay...? haha.

What I don't understand is this bush support. It's as if the entire army will turn to peace-loving hippies and hug the suicide bombers once Kerry is elected. If anything the Iraqis should hope for Kerry since bush is responsible for the mess they're in.
 

Cooter

Lacks the power of instantaneous movement
And what evidence do you have to contradict firest0rm Chrono?

He stated his credentials now let's hear yours.
 

Firest0rm

Member
Chrono said:
And according to your family/father most iraqies love the americans and want them to stay...? haha.

What I don't understand is this bush support. It's as if the entire army will turn to peace-loving hippies and hug the suicide bombers once Kerry is elected. If anything the Iraqis should hope for Kerry since bush is responsible for the mess they're in.

Want them to stay? Yes, because their the only thing we have against the Ba'ath, Criminals and the Terrorists. Love? I wouldn't say that. It would be more neutral because although the American Government has done a great deal of relief to Iraqi's by removing Saddam, Iraqi's still have reason's to not "love" the American Government. But anyway, the situation in Iraq will never make sense to you and neither would the reasoning of an Iraqi. So I'm not going to waste any time trying explain to you or anyone else why alot of Iraqi's feel the way they do.
 

Chrono

Banned
Cooter said:
And what evidence do you have to contradict firest0rm Chrono?
Uh, he didn't present any "evidence" other then his personnel experience through his father and family.

Anyway you need to be blind not to notice the fucking beheadings and thousands of people shouting ALI ALI ALI (or hussein, whatever), holding pictures of iranian ayatollah khomeiny and iraqi ayatollahs like sadr and calling for the creation of an islamic state and fighting off america. I don't know what percentage of iraqies support who but firest0rm suggested most iraqies agree with that blogger and from what we can see that doesn't seem to be the case.

Being an iraqi does not mean much. If a ba'thist told you iraqies supported saddam would you believe him because he's an iraqi?
 

Cooter

Lacks the power of instantaneous movement
Uh, he didn't present any "evidence" other then his personnel experience through his father and family.

Anyway you need to be blind not to notice the fucking beheadings and thousands of people shouting ALI ALI ALI (or hussein, whatever), holding pictures of iranian ayatollah khomeiny and iraqi ayatollahs like sadr and calling for the creation of an islamic state and fighting off america. I don't know what percentage of iraqies support who but firest0rm suggested most iraqies agree with that blogger and from what we can see that doesn't seem to be the case.

Him being an iraqi doesn’t' mean much. If a ba'thists told you most iraqies supported saddam would you believe him because he's an iraqi?

You're basing your opinion on media coverage? Is that what I'm hearing? Listen, no one ever said things are great over there but I’m inclined to believe someone who's family actually lives over there than a observer who watches a lot of CNN
 

Firest0rm

Member
Chrono said:
Uh, he didn't present any "evidence" other then his personnel experience through his father and family.

Anyway you need to be blind not to notice the fucking beheadings and thousands of people shouting ALI ALI ALI (or hussein, whatever), holding pictures of iranian ayatollah khomeiny and iraqi ayatollahs like sadr and calling for the creation of an islamic state and fighting off america. I don't know what percentage of iraqies support who but firest0rm suggested most iraqies agree with that blogger and from what we can see that doesn't seem to be the case.

Being an iraqi doesn’t' mean much. If a ba'thist told you iraqies supported saddam would you believe him because he's an iraqi?

OK I have to comment on this. You have no idea what your talking about. Your just hearing stuff from news and slapping it together into one big mess. First, what you see in the media? BULLSHIT. They let you see what they want you to see and you should know that by now. I hear things first hand I know people who have been kidnapped and released after paying ransoms and then hearing their stories about their kidnappings. Iraqi's don't support Iranian Ayatollahs. We only have ONE Ayatollah, and he doesn't believe in participating in politics. He's view is to be a guidence to the people, and he would never take part politics. Second of all Sadr, you don't know SHIT about him and what his agenda is. He's a disgrace to his father. The Mahdi army wasn't just his men, it was made up of Ba'ath members. You've got no idea how these bastards work their trying to create as much chaos and dispair, and while doing it they want it to seem like its the normal Iraqi citizen thats doing things as an act of rebellion. In addition to the ba'ath members criminals are carrying out beheadings and kidnappings just for money. Just for $1,000, it doesn't matter they'll do it. They will kidnap whatever they can that will be sure to get them atleast a couple of dollars. I really get frustrated by having to say these things. There's SO much I would like to say but I just can't put it into words for you to understand.

EDIT: Wanted to add one more thing about the kidnappers, they say their all about Jihad and Islam its just a cover. These bastards are nothing near Muslims, these guys get drunk and beat their hostages and this is according to someone who was kidnapped from his work and a ransom of 100,000 was paid to get him free.
 

Keio

For a Finer World
I just can't see point in the bloggers post. A president conquers a country, kills more than 10 000 of your countrymen and tries to sell the country off to his friends in big business with American taxpayers' "reconstruction money"... and the blogger says he has to be kept in power because terrorists would be happy to see him go? I know lots of people would be happy to see him go, but you can as easily say that terrorists want Bush to stay because he has been the biggest recruitment ad money couldn't buy.

firest0rm said:
You might have contacts in Iraq, but I have some too, from relatives to family friends. In addition my father has visited Iraq 2 times already and plans to go again.

I don't mean to be offensive, but I'm just wondering - did your family move to Iraq recently as in this earlier earlier thread I quote I got the impression that you had just your family roots + relatives/family friends in Iraq?

Also sorry for doubting all this anecdotal evidence, but I do find it shocking that in your view the media coverage from Iraq is so completely distorted. Being a journalist by trade I would say that a healthy dose of critical attitude is always needed, but saying that all news sources from print to BBC, Al-Jazeera etc. would be lying about the chaos in most parts of the country is a conspiracy theory to rival the wackies 9/11 ones.
 

Firest0rm

Member
Keio said:
I just can't see point in the bloggers post. A president conquers a country, kills more than 10 000 of your countrymen and tries to sell the country off to his friends in big business with American taxpayers' "reconstruction money"... and the blogger says he has to be kept in power because terrorists would be happy to see him go? I know lots of people would be happy to see him go, but you can as easily say that terrorists want Bush to stay because he has been the biggest recruitment ad money couldn't buy.



I don't mean to be offensive, but I'm just wondering - did your family move to Iraq recently as in this earlier earlier thread I quote I got the impression that you had just your family roots + relatives/family friends in Iraq?

Also sorry for doubting all this anecdotal evidence, but I do find it shocking that in your view the media coverage from Iraq is so completely distorted. Being a journalist by trade I would say that a healthy dose of critical attitude is always needed, but saying that all news sources from print to BBC, Al-Jazeera etc. would be lying about the chaos in most parts of the country is a conspiracy theory to rival the wackies 9/11 ones.

No my family has lived there ever since they were born, except my father left before the Gulf War and moved to Jordan for the family's safety.
BBC, IMO, is not bad they cover a range of stories. But Al-Jazeera are worthless bastards. Their news is extremely distorted, its like they specifically try to work against Iraqi's. They fool the whole Arab population and it really pisses me off. Their filled with so much bullshit.
 
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