jeff_rigby
Banned
UHD Game Consoles shipped in 2013 but won't be firmware updated to support it till 2016.. There is a second paper naming both the XB1 and PS4 as UHD game consoles. or http://www.eceee.org/static/media/u.../games-consoles-va-letter-to-stakeholders.pdf
So this is understood as confirmed:
And for the Player software and License for UHD Game Console
There is no such thing as a UHD drive; there is no UHD Drive in the PS4 or the coming Neo.
A modern HD Blu-ray drive can be firmware updated to support UHD (Version 2 disks). They must buy a Licence and provide a server for pairing/Key encryption between the drive and Player across the USB or eSATA bus. ALL blu-ray drives can read three or more layers. It's the disk that is special not the drive; this is mentioned in Wiki pages.
Key is understanding that UHD in all it's forms and Vidipath use the same open source standards >> HTML5 and a UHD TV display is a web page. ALL UHD including TV supports DRM via HTML5 <video> MSE EME standard and a common DRM chosen for Vidipath is Playready.
There arethree four issues with 4K blu-ray:
1) HDMI port with HDCP 2.2 (the new PS4 released in November of the same year will also be equipped with HDMI 2.0 jacks).
2) Drive able to read 3 layer with Panasonic tweek.
3) HEVC low power codec support. Just about any modern GPU can support HEVC but low power HEVC is needed.
4) Chicken and egg adoption due to 1080P being "good enough" and UHD (4K) requiring a new TV
In the above picture of the original PS4 HDMI chip (same applies to the new PS4 revision):
1) Both are custom HDMI chips.
2) Both have all pins exposed and both motherboard designs make no attempt to hide the video and audio input to the HDMI chip. The video and audio must be encrypted before the HDMI chip! Southbridge handles HDCP 2.2!
The above is lost on just about everyone because they either don't know what a HDMI chip does or didn't notice this. DRM requires every trace or pin that has unencrypted video or audio be hidden inside the board and inaccessible. The HDMI 1.4 chips encrypt inside themselves with key negotiation between transmitter and receiver (Player and TV). In the PS4 designs the video and audio MUST be encrypted in Southbridge as the traces and pins on the custom HDMI chips are accessible.
Page 6 ourlines some DRM requirements solved by ARM TEE, DTCP/IP and HDCP SW and configuration executed in TEE For the PS4, that is the Southbridge as a ARM SoC with Trustzone. This also applies to Miracast support. HDCP = HDCP 2.2 done in the Southbridge TEE NOT the HDMI chip.
HDMI 2.0 timings were known but the HDCP scheme was not. Since HDCP takes place in Southbridge it can be firmware updated. The custom HDMI chip supports the faster clock and programmable dividers for HDMI 2 and just passes through HDCP negotiations to Southbridge. All other features remain the same. Edit: The PS4 has a custom HDMI port to support VR with up to 120 FPS, it would have taken very little to include support for HDMI 2.0a and even High Frame Rate which will also be used for IPTV sporting events.
A new HDMI 2.0 feature allows sending HDCP 2.2 encrypted multi-cast over the Lan to another TV on the home network. This is another feature supported because HDMI 2.0 has a LAN pin to support passing through the LAN to all local HDMI cable connected devices. Since a HDMI 2.0 chip has a connection to the LAN it can be firmware updated and since they have confidence in the HDMI 2.2 encryption scheme they allow the HDMI stream to be multicast over the LAN where a "connected" TV can select that LAN input as a HDMI port and treat it as such much like DLNA servers are treated as Source Inputs on Samsung TVs which also treat RVU and Vidipath sources over the LAN as the same Source Inputs.
2) Modern Blu-ray drives can support 4K blu-ray There is a 2010 patent from Sony which confirms modern blu-ray drives can support 4k blu-ray. The patent discusses a modification to either the coming 4 layer BDXL in the 2010 blu-ray whitepaper or 3 layer 4K blu-ray disks to make them unreadable on older blu-ray drives by inverting the track information. A software change to later higher spec standard blu-ray drives makes them able to read this inverted track information.
Edit: See this page later in this thread as a reference for all drives released Oct 2015 has no mention of a UHD drive and tables mention Version 2 drives able to read disks with the same listed size as UHD blu-ray.
Singulus Develops Technology for 100 GB, 4K Triple-Layer Blu-Ray Discs in 2013 and mentions the PS4 and XB1 will have 4K blu-ray support.
The key difference is the UHD player looking for the BD-ROM Mark encrypted burn on a commercial UHD BD-ROM Blu-ray disk. The player is not allowed to play the commercial UHD media (Games too) unless it's there.
BD+ and BD-Rom Mark are an additional DRM released in 2007. "Only licensed BD-ROM manufacturers have access to the equipment that can make these unique ROM Marks, thus allowing authentic BD-ROM media like movies and music to be identified.[1]"
The ROM Mark contains the Volume ID required to decrypt content encrypted using AACS. AACS version 2 optionally requires a on-line connection to a server plus the BD-ROM Mark. In all cases the BD+ Virtual machine is running in a TEE with stricter DRM.
In order, the License restrictions for UHD Blu-ray
https://www.blu-raydisc.info/rom4-faq.php
https://www.blu-raydisc.info/content-protection/content-protection-rom4.php
http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/vectors/brcp.pdf
Picture of a disk with the BD-ROM Mark on the inner circle = these marks ||| || |||| | ||
There is no UHD drive, it's a modern Version 2 blu-ray drive that can play HD & UHD disks. Version 2 BD-ROM drives follow the 2010 BD-R whitepaper specs and can read BD-R XL disks or three layer 100 GB disks that can contain UHD media. The commercial UHD player can only read a BD-ROM disk that contains the BD-ROM MARK. Non Commercial 4K media is supported on all disks as BD-R even if it's a pressed BD-ROM disk? I think that is the point of your post, the format of the 4K media so that the player can play it should be the same as HD except for the HEVC codec.
3) Low power HEVC HEVC in both the XB1 and PS4 is supported with Xtensa stream processors as software accelerators. Found by OnQ123 who is also just returning from being banned and one of the posters I respect.
The PS4 Southbridge has a ARM Trustzone managed AXI buss and can support TEE level DRM = Playready 3 for 4K blu-ray and Playready ND for streaming in the home via the Digital bridge. (The ARM AXI bus and Xtensa processors, externally and internally, support NOC (Network On Chip)). Power PC and ARMV8 designed for servers are called Oban because of the NOC. The cancelled 2011 Xbox 360 was called Oban and the XB1 should also be Oban because it internally has a AXI buss and Xtensa processors.
Early speculation Goto, a well respected Japanese hardware reviewer, speculated the PS4 would have a custom HDMI chip before the 2013 hardware breakdown reveled the Panasonic custom HDMI chip. He never explained why and how it would work and everyone assumed it was a custom HDMI 2.0. He must have known then what the original discover (I cited Ron Jones of the AVS Forum) of the custom nature of the chip means.
You need to understand what a HDMI chip does to fully understand what I'm saying. A HDMI 1.4 chip has a multitude of functions in addition to the video out which don't change from 1.4 to 2.0. For example expanded CEC in HDMI 2.0 is just adding additional commands which are passed through the HDMI chip untouched. The differences are timing/clock/bandwidth and HDCP. The video be it 8 bit or 10 bit is just a stream that has a higher bandwidth (Higher clock) at 60 hz and 10 bit. ALL video generation is done by the player in Southbridge not by the HDMI chip...it just sees a stream of video and audio.
HDMI chips (transmitter and receiver) talk to each other and negotiate an encryption scheme and with supported resolutions the clock timings. HDMI 2.0 has a new HDCP scheme which wasn't known and will be considerably more intense that that in HDMI 1.4 And new resolutions/clock timings which were known.
In 2010 there were several whitepapers about BD-R and those set the stage for new specs that BD-ROM drives comply with to allow them to read 4 layer BDXL disks. Those higher specs included a new laser and new routines for reliably reading a three or 4 layer disk. New lasers were also needed because the older designs were unreliable and Lasers failed as well as the optics being damaged. This was a major problem for PS3 drives, I went through two drives since 2008.
4) Chicken and egg adoption due to 1080P being "good enough" and UHD (4K) requiring a new TV 4K blu-ray is going to have adoption issues (chicken and egg) which nearly everyone sees. The digital bridge will be a big attractions as it makes legal, archival copies and streaming those copies throughout the home; this includes our libraries of HD (1080P) disks. Further, Microsoft states that Playready ND will support DVR and Live streaming. Add that the FCC DSTAC is going to replace the cable card with a Downloadable Security Scheme and we have the High end UHD Blu-ray player (PS4 & XB1) being the media hub mentioned by the Fox CEO.
From Microsoft's Playready 3 site: Supporting In-Home Content Distribution with PlayReady for Network Devices page 14
My guess based on Playready ND papers is that both the PS4 and XB1 (XB1 for games and Skype has been confirmed using HEVC) will support streaming 4K in the home and Vidipath DTCP which can only support 1080i or lower resolution will be upgraded to use Playready ND for Cable TV 4K DVRs which are now shipping. Having all PS4, XB1 and PCs with Windows 10 (provided they have the TEE hardware required either in the APU or dGPU) able to support this to most CE platforms in the home will be a big selling feature for Game Consoles and PCs as well as 4K blu-ray.
If you assume the XB1 and PS4 have the same game and media streaming endgame, between the two there are leaks and clues that confirm the above. There is confirmation that the XB1 supports HEVC streaming which requires both encoding and decoding but not for Sony. If Sony wants to do the same then they need both also. Playready ND has an example being used with a Game Console, is this just the XB1? Sony Studios has a 4K Digital bridge explanation stating it supports C-ENC which is what would be used for in home streaming by Playready ND. Is this only Sony's PS4 or the XB1 too?
Sony is seriously invested in the Connected Home = DLNA CVP2 = Vidipath. Further cites here.
Blu-ray streaming comfirmed!
Some interesting fact and supported speculation:
1) The PS4 should be able to play 4K blu-ray
2) DTLA in 2010? planned on streaming blu-ray over the home network but the ecosystem didn't develop. VIdipath is now that ecosystem.
3) 4K blu-ray plans call for a bridge to home and portable players where media can be copied and played on tablets and TVs.
Playready DRM supports the use cases in the Digital bridge slides. In this proposal for Digital bridge, again a Sony proposal it mentions C-ENC (Common encryption) which supports multiple DRM schemes but requires the same format used by Playready as does HTML5 <video> ME and Vidipath. On page 7 of the Sony Studios Digital bridge proposal is this: "Streaming video to mobile / TV
from Home Server" from both AACS Bound Copy and non-AACS Bound Copy (likely Playready ND). They want the same functionality in the home that Ultraviolet has from the Cloud.
Again; Vidipath platforms have Playready certified DRM and plans are to stream and copy movies and games between platforms
Vidipath and the digital bridge allow access to media from any DRM secure platform in the home. No longer do you have to insert a disk into a player to watch the movie or have the blu-ray player in the same room connected to the TV. This June you can watch TV or access Cable TV DVR Movies from any TV provided it supports Vidipath or has a Vidipath STB or Game Console attached to it.
Leaked Pansasonic proposal for UHD Blu-ray mentions Digital bridge using WMDRM Playready ND
AACS 2.0 -1st draft
Sony wants Digital bridge mandatory for HD & UHD.
Digital Bridge Export Function
So this is understood as confirmed:
And for the Player software and License for UHD Game Console
There is no such thing as a UHD drive; there is no UHD Drive in the PS4 or the coming Neo.
A modern HD Blu-ray drive can be firmware updated to support UHD (Version 2 disks). They must buy a Licence and provide a server for pairing/Key encryption between the drive and Player across the USB or eSATA bus. ALL blu-ray drives can read three or more layers. It's the disk that is special not the drive; this is mentioned in Wiki pages.
Key is understanding that UHD in all it's forms and Vidipath use the same open source standards >> HTML5 and a UHD TV display is a web page. ALL UHD including TV supports DRM via HTML5 <video> MSE EME standard and a common DRM chosen for Vidipath is Playready.
There are
1) HDMI port with HDCP 2.2 (the new PS4 released in November of the same year will also be equipped with HDMI 2.0 jacks).
2) Drive able to read 3 layer with Panasonic tweek.
3) HEVC low power codec support. Just about any modern GPU can support HEVC but low power HEVC is needed.
4) Chicken and egg adoption due to 1080P being "good enough" and UHD (4K) requiring a new TV
In the above picture of the original PS4 HDMI chip (same applies to the new PS4 revision):
1) Both are custom HDMI chips.
2) Both have all pins exposed and both motherboard designs make no attempt to hide the video and audio input to the HDMI chip. The video and audio must be encrypted before the HDMI chip! Southbridge handles HDCP 2.2!
The above is lost on just about everyone because they either don't know what a HDMI chip does or didn't notice this. DRM requires every trace or pin that has unencrypted video or audio be hidden inside the board and inaccessible. The HDMI 1.4 chips encrypt inside themselves with key negotiation between transmitter and receiver (Player and TV). In the PS4 designs the video and audio MUST be encrypted in Southbridge as the traces and pins on the custom HDMI chips are accessible.
Page 6 ourlines some DRM requirements solved by ARM TEE, DTCP/IP and HDCP SW and configuration executed in TEE For the PS4, that is the Southbridge as a ARM SoC with Trustzone. This also applies to Miracast support. HDCP = HDCP 2.2 done in the Southbridge TEE NOT the HDMI chip.
The quote is from the FCC DSTAC which is outlining a strategy for Downloadable security to eliminate the Cable Card. What this does mean is the PS3 might not be able to support Downloadable security and will report to Playready that it does not have a robust DRM scheme. I don't think it matters much as about 2011 the old HDCP scheme was cracked. Also we might see an upgrade in "robustness" if the PS3 implements watermarking which it could do with a firmware update.https://transition.fcc.gov/dstac/wg3-draft-report-08042015.pdf said:
HDMI 2.0 timings were known but the HDCP scheme was not. Since HDCP takes place in Southbridge it can be firmware updated. The custom HDMI chip supports the faster clock and programmable dividers for HDMI 2 and just passes through HDCP negotiations to Southbridge. All other features remain the same. Edit: The PS4 has a custom HDMI port to support VR with up to 120 FPS, it would have taken very little to include support for HDMI 2.0a and even High Frame Rate which will also be used for IPTV sporting events.
A new HDMI 2.0 feature allows sending HDCP 2.2 encrypted multi-cast over the Lan to another TV on the home network. This is another feature supported because HDMI 2.0 has a LAN pin to support passing through the LAN to all local HDMI cable connected devices. Since a HDMI 2.0 chip has a connection to the LAN it can be firmware updated and since they have confidence in the HDMI 2.2 encryption scheme they allow the HDMI stream to be multicast over the LAN where a "connected" TV can select that LAN input as a HDMI port and treat it as such much like DLNA servers are treated as Source Inputs on Samsung TVs which also treat RVU and Vidipath sources over the LAN as the same Source Inputs.
2) Modern Blu-ray drives can support 4K blu-ray There is a 2010 patent from Sony which confirms modern blu-ray drives can support 4k blu-ray. The patent discusses a modification to either the coming 4 layer BDXL in the 2010 blu-ray whitepaper or 3 layer 4K blu-ray disks to make them unreadable on older blu-ray drives by inverting the track information. A software change to later higher spec standard blu-ray drives makes them able to read this inverted track information.
This patent is from 2010 is either about the coming 4 layer BDXL disks or 3 layer 4K and may show that the 3 layer with the 2010 Panasonic-Sony tweak was KNOWN at that time in 2010 to be future 4K blu-ray disk. If it's about coming standard blu-ray drives able to read 4 layers then they can read 3 layer 4K disks. The following cite shows that production equipment to make such a disk was shipping late 2013 which means the standard was known much earlier.
Edit: See this page later in this thread as a reference for all drives released Oct 2015 has no mention of a UHD drive and tables mention Version 2 drives able to read disks with the same listed size as UHD blu-ray.
Singulus Develops Technology for 100 GB, 4K Triple-Layer Blu-Ray Discs in 2013 and mentions the PS4 and XB1 will have 4K blu-ray support.
The key difference is the UHD player looking for the BD-ROM Mark encrypted burn on a commercial UHD BD-ROM Blu-ray disk. The player is not allowed to play the commercial UHD media (Games too) unless it's there.
BD+ and BD-Rom Mark are an additional DRM released in 2007. "Only licensed BD-ROM manufacturers have access to the equipment that can make these unique ROM Marks, thus allowing authentic BD-ROM media like movies and music to be identified.[1]"
The ROM Mark contains the Volume ID required to decrypt content encrypted using AACS. AACS version 2 optionally requires a on-line connection to a server plus the BD-ROM Mark. In all cases the BD+ Virtual machine is running in a TEE with stricter DRM.
In order, the License restrictions for UHD Blu-ray
https://www.blu-raydisc.info/rom4-faq.php
https://www.blu-raydisc.info/content-protection/content-protection-rom4.php
http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/vectors/brcp.pdf
Picture of a disk with the BD-ROM Mark on the inner circle = these marks ||| || |||| | ||
There is no UHD drive, it's a modern Version 2 blu-ray drive that can play HD & UHD disks. Version 2 BD-ROM drives follow the 2010 BD-R whitepaper specs and can read BD-R XL disks or three layer 100 GB disks that can contain UHD media. The commercial UHD player can only read a BD-ROM disk that contains the BD-ROM MARK. Non Commercial 4K media is supported on all disks as BD-R even if it's a pressed BD-ROM disk? I think that is the point of your post, the format of the 4K media so that the player can play it should be the same as HD except for the HEVC codec.
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=256623 said:
3) Low power HEVC HEVC in both the XB1 and PS4 is supported with Xtensa stream processors as software accelerators. Found by OnQ123 who is also just returning from being banned and one of the posters I respect.
The PS4 Southbridge has a ARM Trustzone managed AXI buss and can support TEE level DRM = Playready 3 for 4K blu-ray and Playready ND for streaming in the home via the Digital bridge. (The ARM AXI bus and Xtensa processors, externally and internally, support NOC (Network On Chip)). Power PC and ARMV8 designed for servers are called Oban because of the NOC. The cancelled 2011 Xbox 360 was called Oban and the XB1 should also be Oban because it internally has a AXI buss and Xtensa processors.
Early speculation Goto, a well respected Japanese hardware reviewer, speculated the PS4 would have a custom HDMI chip before the 2013 hardware breakdown reveled the Panasonic custom HDMI chip. He never explained why and how it would work and everyone assumed it was a custom HDMI 2.0. He must have known then what the original discover (I cited Ron Jones of the AVS Forum) of the custom nature of the chip means.
You need to understand what a HDMI chip does to fully understand what I'm saying. A HDMI 1.4 chip has a multitude of functions in addition to the video out which don't change from 1.4 to 2.0. For example expanded CEC in HDMI 2.0 is just adding additional commands which are passed through the HDMI chip untouched. The differences are timing/clock/bandwidth and HDCP. The video be it 8 bit or 10 bit is just a stream that has a higher bandwidth (Higher clock) at 60 hz and 10 bit. ALL video generation is done by the player in Southbridge not by the HDMI chip...it just sees a stream of video and audio.
HDMI chips (transmitter and receiver) talk to each other and negotiate an encryption scheme and with supported resolutions the clock timings. HDMI 2.0 has a new HDCP scheme which wasn't known and will be considerably more intense that that in HDMI 1.4 And new resolutions/clock timings which were known.
In 2010 there were several whitepapers about BD-R and those set the stage for new specs that BD-ROM drives comply with to allow them to read 4 layer BDXL disks. Those higher specs included a new laser and new routines for reliably reading a three or 4 layer disk. New lasers were also needed because the older designs were unreliable and Lasers failed as well as the optics being damaged. This was a major problem for PS3 drives, I went through two drives since 2008.
4) Chicken and egg adoption due to 1080P being "good enough" and UHD (4K) requiring a new TV 4K blu-ray is going to have adoption issues (chicken and egg) which nearly everyone sees. The digital bridge will be a big attractions as it makes legal, archival copies and streaming those copies throughout the home; this includes our libraries of HD (1080P) disks. Further, Microsoft states that Playready ND will support DVR and Live streaming. Add that the FCC DSTAC is going to replace the cable card with a Downloadable Security Scheme and we have the High end UHD Blu-ray player (PS4 & XB1) being the media hub mentioned by the Fox CEO.
From Microsoft's Playready 3 site: Supporting In-Home Content Distribution with PlayReady for Network Devices page 14
This outlines a model similar to Vidipath except using Playready ND instead of WMDRM10 and confirms the XB1 and PS4 will be streaming 4K media in the home (from Cable TV and OTT) and supports both as 4K blu-ray players with digital bridge.
http://www.cepro.com/article/fox_home_entertainment_proposes_blu-ray_movie_servers_as_uhd_digital_bridge/ said:
My guess based on Playready ND papers is that both the PS4 and XB1 (XB1 for games and Skype has been confirmed using HEVC) will support streaming 4K in the home and Vidipath DTCP which can only support 1080i or lower resolution will be upgraded to use Playready ND for Cable TV 4K DVRs which are now shipping. Having all PS4, XB1 and PCs with Windows 10 (provided they have the TEE hardware required either in the APU or dGPU) able to support this to most CE platforms in the home will be a big selling feature for Game Consoles and PCs as well as 4K blu-ray.
If you assume the XB1 and PS4 have the same game and media streaming endgame, between the two there are leaks and clues that confirm the above. There is confirmation that the XB1 supports HEVC streaming which requires both encoding and decoding but not for Sony. If Sony wants to do the same then they need both also. Playready ND has an example being used with a Game Console, is this just the XB1? Sony Studios has a 4K Digital bridge explanation stating it supports C-ENC which is what would be used for in home streaming by Playready ND. Is this only Sony's PS4 or the XB1 too?
Sony is seriously invested in the Connected Home = DLNA CVP2 = Vidipath. Further cites here.
Blu-ray streaming comfirmed!
Some interesting fact and supported speculation:
1) The PS4 should be able to play 4K blu-ray
2) DTLA in 2010? planned on streaming blu-ray over the home network but the ecosystem didn't develop. VIdipath is now that ecosystem.
3) 4K blu-ray plans call for a bridge to home and portable players where media can be copied and played on tablets and TVs.
Playready DRM supports the use cases in the Digital bridge slides. In this proposal for Digital bridge, again a Sony proposal it mentions C-ENC (Common encryption) which supports multiple DRM schemes but requires the same format used by Playready as does HTML5 <video> ME and Vidipath. On page 7 of the Sony Studios Digital bridge proposal is this: "Streaming video to mobile / TV
from Home Server" from both AACS Bound Copy and non-AACS Bound Copy (likely Playready ND). They want the same functionality in the home that Ultraviolet has from the Cloud.
Again; Vidipath platforms have Playready certified DRM and plans are to stream and copy movies and games between platforms
Vidipath and the digital bridge allow access to media from any DRM secure platform in the home. No longer do you have to insert a disk into a player to watch the movie or have the blu-ray player in the same room connected to the TV. This June you can watch TV or access Cable TV DVR Movies from any TV provided it supports Vidipath or has a Vidipath STB or Game Console attached to it.
Leaked Pansasonic proposal for UHD Blu-ray mentions Digital bridge using WMDRM Playready ND
AACS 2.0 -1st draft
Sony wants Digital bridge mandatory for HD & UHD.
Digital Bridge Export Function
