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OS X El Capitan [OT]

N

Ninja Dom

Member
My iMac has gone to shit since this new update.

I woke up this morning and 10.11.5 had automatically updated on my iMac. That's okay, it worked absolutely fine. I then go to work.

I come home from work and there's a notification saying some updates could not be installed. The Dock is unresponsive, no apps/programs are loading and Finder isn't working.

I power off by long holding the power switch, I've now rebooted three times to try and get the Finder and Dock to be responsive again and I'm now being met with different messages saying "Keychain login cannot be found".

WTF is going on here?

EDIT: Fucking Brilliant!! �� I now can't sign into iCloud without resetting my Keychain which will delete all my passwords, and various other bits of information. What shall I do?
 
M

mrkgoo

Member
Ninja Dom said:
My iMac has gone to shit since this new update.

I woke up this morning and 10.11.5 had automatically updated on my iMac. That's okay, it worked absolutely fine. I then go to work.

I come home from work and there's a notification saying some updates could not be installed. The Dock is unresponsive, no apps/programs are loading and Finder isn't working.

I power off by long holding the power switch, I've now rebooted three times to try and get the Finder and Dock to be responsive again and I'm now being met with different messages saying "Keychain login cannot be found".

WTF is going on here?

EDIT: Fucking Brilliant!! �� I now can't sign into iCloud without resetting my Keychain which will delete all my passwords, and various other bits of information. What shall I do?
Click to expand...

I don't specifically know the answer to your problem, but by chance do you use your Apple ID as login for your computer? Or is it just iCloud Keychain that is all screwy?

I never allow apple/iCloud to use my keychain or for login. It's a world of hurt.

I've seen people use their Apple ID as local login to their computer but then they change their email address or lose their password and it gets very very messy to tidy things up.

In my opinion, keep local logins just that, local.

There are some things you can look into, as in examine and ask around. I'm not saying do anything, just investigate what the issue and possible resolutions can be.

Local key chains can be restored from time machine, but ever since they moved to a possible iCloud Keychain, I've seen that screw up more times than has been useful.
 
N

Ninja Dom

Member
I fixed it by Googling the answer.

I had to go into my Library and move the Keychains folder from there onto my desktop and then restart the comp. Once it restarted I could then log into iCloud and get all my iCloud services working. I use ALL the iCloud services, iMessage & FaceTime are essential for me. OSX must have realised that the Keychains folder was missing from Library after the restart and it just automatically built a new one.

mrkgoo: My iMac password is a regular password for local login is unrelated to anything to do with iCloud. I was gonna consider restoring from Time Machine but that is a very long process and would tie my comp up for a bit.
 
M

mrkgoo

Member
Ninja Dom said:
I fixed it by Googling the answer.

I had to go into my Library and move the Keychains folder from there onto my desktop and then restart the comp. Once it restarted I could then log into iCloud and get all my iCloud services working. I use ALL the iCloud services, iMessage & FaceTime are essential for me. OSX must have realised that the Keychains folder was missing from Library after the restart and it just automatically built a new one.

mrkgoo: My iMac password is a regular password for local login is unrelated to anything to do with iCloud. I was gonna consider restoring from Time Machine but that is a very long process and would tie my comp up for a bit.
Click to expand...

The keychains folder contains individual keychains, you can just move individual keychains, but sometimes there are some cache files there that just need to be cleared.

Thing is you said you didn't want to reset your keychain, which moving the entire folder will do.

but yeah, Mac OS X will often realise things like that are missing and rebuild them. Your new keychain, however, will not have any of you passwords for other things in there.

There is a keychain assistant that can help with running a few first aid routines.

other options include just restoring keychains from time machine. That's the beauty of time machine.
 
N

Ninja Dom

Member
mrkgoo said:
The keychains folder contains individual keychains, you can just move individual keychains, but sometimes there are some cache files there that just need to be cleared.

Thing is you said you didn't want to reset your keychain, which moving the entire folder will do.

but yeah, Mac OS X will often realise things like that are missing and rebuild them. Your new keychain, however, will not have any of you passwords for other things in there.

There is a keychain assistant that can help with running a few first aid routines.

other options include just restoring keychains from time machine. That's the beauty of time machine.
Click to expand...

That's the thing, I wasn't sure exactly what the passwords were. They're not passwords to any of my websites I use as they are all stored within Safari. After an hour of using the iMac everything seems okay and I haven't been asked for anymore passwords. Hmmm. I'll do more investigating in the morning. Is it possible to only restore my Keychain from a Time Machine backup?

EDIT: I think that El Capitan will be the final OS X I put on this iMac. It's still runs super fast and smooth though (Late 2009 27", 2.8GHz i7 with 12GB RAM), but I'm missing out on the newer features that OSX brings like Handoff and Continuity. I can't see Apple allowing Siri to work on this old comp with the next OS X release.
 
E

EmiPrime

Member
Ninja Dom said:
EDIT: I think that El Capitan will be the final OS X I put on this iMac. It's still runs super fast and smooth though (Late 2009 27", 2.8GHz i7 with 12GB RAM), but I'm missing out on the newer features that OSX brings like Handoff and Continuity. I can't see Apple allowing Siri to work on this old comp with the next OS X release.
Click to expand...

That's easily fixed with a hardware upgrade or a USB dongle.
 
U

User 479360

Banned
When I switch tabs in Firefox to look at my email, there's a visual glitch in that tab almost every time. It flashes purple crap then looks/works fine.

I hate it.
 
M

mrkgoo

Member
Ninja Dom said:
That's the thing, I wasn't sure exactly what the passwords were. They're not passwords to any of my websites I use as they are all stored within Safari. After an hour of using the iMac everything seems okay and I haven't been asked for anymore passwords. Hmmm. I'll do more investigating in the morning. Is it possible to only restore my Keychain from a Time Machine backup?

EDIT: I think that El Capitan will be the final OS X I put on this iMac. It's still runs super fast and smooth though (Late 2009 27", 2.8GHz i7 with 12GB RAM), but I'm missing out on the newer features that OSX brings like Handoff and Continuity. I can't see Apple allowing Siri to work on this old comp with the next OS X release.
Click to expand...

Yes you can restore your keychain from a time machine backup. Well I assume you can. Since about mountain lion when they started using iCloud Keychain it got a bit convoluted.

FYI, keychain assistant is the program you can use to manage your keychain a and can even see each individual entry into the keychain. There used to be one for yor login and one for the system. Now it's a bit different with a local one and a non-local.

The keychain files themselves are elsewhere but are just files.
 
A

Ambitious

Member
When you three-finger-swipe horizontally outside of Mission Control, the current desktop kind of "sticks" to your fingers. It's like you're dragging a physical object. You can stop mid-swipe or change direction, and the desktop will follow. Just like the homescreen on iOS. And yet, within Mission Control, the desktop is switched as soon as you start the swipe gesture. You can't stop it and "hold" the desktop. So it behaves exactly like the Notification Center on iOS. Why? Why the inconsistent behavior? Why the unnatural behavior?
 
N

Ninja Dom

Member
Since installing 10.11.5 has anybody's Mac's been really high hard drive access for a few seconds before stopping? It's happening on my iMac. It's not affecting the performance but about every 5 minutes I can hear really high hard drive access, for a few seconds.

I don't think it's indexing because my Mac has been on for 2 days since it's last reboot.
 
N

Ninja Dom

Member
That's it! My iMac is fucked. 10.11.5 killed it.

It turns off during regular startup.
It turns off during startup when trying to start in Safe Mode.
When trying to start from a bootable USB or Time Machine backup, I don't have Macintosh HD as a target drive to install OSX on.

I'm now in OSX Startup Manager running First Aid on Macintosh HD. First Aid failed.

Any help? Any ideas?

EDIT: I got Disk Utility to recognise Macintosh HD. I then erased it and run First Aid again and that was successful. Now I can select Macintosh HD as a destination to restore from my Time Machine backup.
It's gonna take a while. Hope it works.
 
T

The Real Abed

Perma-Junior
Do you think maybe the HDD is dead? Or at least dying? From what I can remember those sound like symptoms of a dying HDD.

At least you have a backup right?

Edit: Ha. Well good to see it is recognized now. Good on you for having a backup though.
 
E

EmiPrime

Member
Now is a good time to shop around for a SSD and a set of torx screwdrivers. That spinner is on borrowed time, don't wait for it to keel over.
 
N

Ninja Dom

Member
Yeah it is a good time to shop for an SSD. Need to find out how to replace the Hard Disk in this Late 2009 27" iMac. If it involves removing the screen then that could be very tricky for me.
 
E

EmiPrime

Member
Ninja Dom said:
Yeah it is a good time to shop for an SSD. Need to find out how to replace the Hard Disk in this Late 2009 27" iMac. If it involves removing the screen then that could be very tricky for me.
Click to expand...

It does but other than that it's very easy. No glue cutting or EMI shields like some of the other iMac models.
 
N

Ninja Dom

Member
I managed to restore from my Time Machine backup and everything seems to be working fine.

The constant Hard Disk access still happens every few minutes but I'll give that a week or two and see if it settles down after that.
 
F

Fuchsdh

Member
Ninja Dom said:
I managed to restore from my Time Machine backup and everything seems to be working fine.

The constant Hard Disk access still happens every few minutes but I'll give that a week or two and see if it settles down after that.
Click to expand...

When you first start up or upgrade there's stuff like Spotlight indexing going on in the background that could account for that.
 
H

hirokazu

Member
Ninja Dom said:
I managed to restore from my Time Machine backup and everything seems to be working fine.

The constant Hard Disk access still happens every few minutes but I'll give that a week or two and see if it settles down after that.
Click to expand...
Are you sure your hard drive isn't failing? I would be wary.
 
M

mrkgoo

Member
Ninja Dom said:
That's it! My iMac is fucked. 10.11.5 killed it.

It turns off during regular startup.
It turns off during startup when trying to start in Safe Mode.
When trying to start from a bootable USB or Time Machine backup, I don't have Macintosh HD as a target drive to install OSX on.

I'm now in OSX Startup Manager running First Aid on Macintosh HD. First Aid failed.

Any help? Any ideas?

EDIT: I got Disk Utility to recognise Macintosh HD. I then erased it and run First Aid again and that was successful. Now I can select Macintosh HD as a destination to restore from my Time Machine backup.
It's gonna take a while. Hope it works.
Click to expand...

While 10.11.5 update may have been a trigger, it's probably not that it's a bad update or the cause.

Hard drives can fail and develop bad sectors. This can go unnoticed for a long time without any consequence. Imagine, for example, a bad part on the hard drive. IT might be that it's empty. Or that inconsequential files use it. so nothing happens.

Then along comes a major update, and you write important system-level files to a bad part of the hard drive. Then things will fail.

Not saying this is the case, but it's a possible scenario. We always informed people to make backups often, especially before performing major OS updates.
 
T

The Real Abed

Perma-Junior
mrkgoo said:
While 10.11.5 update may have been a trigger, it's probably not that it's a bad update or the cause.

Hard drives can fail and develop bad sectors. This can go unnoticed for a long time without any consequence. Imagine, for example, a bad part on the hard drive. IT might be that it's empty. Or that inconsequential files use it. so nothing happens.

Then along comes a major update, and you write important system-level files to a bad part of the hard drive. Then things will fail.

Not saying this is the case, but it's a possible scenario. We always informed people to make backups often, especially before performing major OS updates.
Click to expand...
Yep. That's usually the explanation. People always like to blame the updates because it's an easy target. But it's like a hotel burning down and blaming the person who just happened to check in last when it was faulty wiring in the one room no one has stayed in until then.

Or something.
 
H

hirokazu

Member
The Real Abed said:
Yep. That's usually the explanation. People always like to blame the updates because it's an easy target. But it's like a hotel burning down and blaming the person who just happened to check in last when it was faulty wiring in the one room no one has stayed in until then.

Or something.
Click to expand...
That said, I've had 10.11.3 or 10.11.4 fail to install properly twice on two different computers. OS X would boot up normally, but all apps will fail to launch. Reininstalling the update by delta or combo installers fails to fix it, but reinstalling OS X from the Recovery partition (without wiping anything) does.

I'm surprised poster above is still brave enough to continue using their existing hard drive though with intermittent high disk access, funny sounds, and things like the computer failing to boot or failing to mount the internal drive at all.
 
A

Ambitious

Member
When an app freezes and I try to force quit it using the Dock, why does it take several seconds of beachballing until the context menu appears? Why is the Dock affected by the frozen app? And why does it take several seconds after clicking Force Quit until it actually quits? The German localization is actually "Sofort beenden", which means "Terminate immediately". Immediately. Several seconds is not immediately.
 
S

StopMakingSense

Member
Ambitious said:
When an app freezes and I try to force quit it using the Dock, why does it take several seconds of beachballing until the context menu appears? Why is the Dock affected by the frozen app? And why does it take several seconds after clicking Force Quit until it actually quits? The German localization is actually "Sofort beenden", which means "Terminate immediately". Immediately. Several seconds is not immediately.
Click to expand...

Takes a couple seconds for Dock to know that the app is indeed frozen, and not supplying the usual dock menu items the app has supplies. Also, force quit is more involved then just 'halt execution'
 
T

teruterubozu

Member
Ambitious said:
When an app freezes and I try to force quit it using the Dock, why does it take several seconds of beachballing until the context menu appears? Why is the Dock affected by the frozen app? And why does it take several seconds after clicking Force Quit until it actually quits? The German localization is actually "Sofort beenden", which means "Terminate immediately". Immediately. Several seconds is not immediately.
Click to expand...

Yup same here. All I know is the beach balls are getting worse and I've been force quitting a lot lately. And I even doubled my RAM recently. I loved El Capitan when it first launched, but for some reason it's been getting kinda resource heavy with each upgrade.
 
E

EmiPrime

Member
I don't have a bad word to say about El Cap and I had plenty bad to say about the previous 4 OS X versions (some more than others).
 
H

hirokazu

Member
teruterubozu said:
All I know is the beach balls are getting worse and I've been force quitting a lot lately. And I even doubled my RAM recently. I loved El Capitan when it first launched, but for some reason it's been getting kinda resource heavy with each upgrade.
Click to expand...
I don't think that's to do with the point releases. Most of El Capitan's point releases have been security and bug fixes, not major overhauls, so there shouldn't be anything making it more resource intensive or much less stable like that.

If those problems only came up or got worse when you upgraded your RAM, you might want to check that the RAM isn't the culprit.
 
N

Ninja Dom

Member
Gonna get a 1TB SSD for my iMac. What do you all suggest is the best value and performance? Will also cross post in the Hardware thread?
 
N

Ninja Dom

Member
EmiPrime said:
Samsung 850 EVO or the PRO version if you don't mind paying more.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

Do you reckon this will work?
Install new SSD. Put on a fresh install of El Capitan. Only copy over my iTunes library, my Photos library and manually copy over any other selected files I choose.
Rather than restore completely from my Time Machine backup.
I don't want any legacy problems potentially slowing the iMac down.

Only problem is I want my entire iMessage history too but I don't know where on OSX that is stored.
 
T

The Real Abed

Perma-Junior
Ninja Dom said:
Thanks.

Do you reckon this will work?
Install new SSD. Put on a fresh install of El Capitan. Only copy over my iTunes library, my Photos library and manually copy over any other selected files I choose.
Rather than restore completely from my Time Machine backup.
I don't want any legacy problems potentially slowing the iMac down.

Only problem is I want my entire iMessage history too but I don't know where on OSX that is stored.
Click to expand...
Use Migration Assistant, but only select what you want manually. You can bring over everything in your User folder while leaving the Settings (Stuff in the Library) behind.

But if you use Time Machine you can bring stuff over piecemeal anyway. So either way works.

Just keep the backup in case you want to bring over settings one at a time that you know won't do anything.
 
E

EmiPrime

Member
Ninja Dom said:
Thanks.

Do you reckon this will work?
Install new SSD. Put on a fresh install of El Capitan. Only copy over my iTunes library, my Photos library and manually copy over any other selected files I choose.
Rather than restore completely from my Time Machine backup.
I don't want any legacy problems potentially slowing the iMac down.

Only problem is I want my entire iMessage history too but I don't know where on OSX that is stored.
Click to expand...

I prefer to migrate wholesale, either by cloning onto the new drive before installation if it's the same machine or using the migration tool during the OS installation but Time Machine should work too.

I have had the same Home folder from 10.4 to 10.11 across multiple Macs and never had an issue. I would only do a clean install if problems pop up as OS X generally speaking is very reliable as regards upgrades and you'd only be making more work for yourself. This is the same machine after all, just with a different drive.

Don't forget to download TRIM Enabler when you're done! You might also need to reenable TRIM after a major update too so check up on the TRIM status (in System Information.app) after you install 10.12 a few months from now.
 
T

The Real Abed

Perma-Junior
EmiPrime said:
I prefer to migrate wholesale, either by cloning onto the new drive before installation if it's the same machine or using the migration tool during the OS installation but Time Machine should work too.

I have had the same Home folder from 10.4 to 10.11 across multiple Macs and never had an issue. I would only do a clean install if problems pop up as OS X generally speaking is very reliable as regards upgrades and you'd only be making more work for yourself. This is the same machine after all, just with a different drive.
Click to expand...
Me too actually. I never leave behind anything and it never hurts anything. I've had my same data since 10.0. Originally cloned via the Western Digital SilverKeeper app and then Migration Assistant when that came along.
 
E

EmiPrime

Member
The Real Abed said:
Me too actually. I never leave behind anything and it never hurts anything. I've had my same data since 10.0. Originally cloned via the Western Digital SilverKeeper app and then Migration Assistant when that came along.
Click to expand...

That's really impressive. I love how easy OS X upgrades are.

I spent 3 hours with Microsoft tech support this week because I went from a VM to a Boot Camp partition and so my hardware was flagged as being different, that and it was a 8.1 key that I had updated to Windows 10 so it possibly didn't like that I had done a fresh install of 10. They wouldn't help me at first because it was a MSDN generated key sold on Reddit (MS hate that) but they offered a new copy of Windows 10 at first for $200 then when I said no thanks, they offered a key for $40. Throughout all this I had to give them control of my desktop (the tech got arsey with me when I said I wasn't comfortable with this) and give them my debit card's CV2 number in a chat box (they wouldn't let me use Paypal).

Everything about Windows licensing, installation and upgrading is a fucking awful experience and whenever I am subjected to it I am reminded of why I ditched that platform in the first place.
 
N

Ninja Dom

Member
I've never even looked at Migration Assistant before. I'll take a look.

Thanks for the advice. I'll get the SSD towards the end of next week and install it. What about the suction cups and the torx screwdriver to open up the iMac? Who sells those?
 
E

EmiPrime

Member
Ninja Dom said:
I've never even looked at Migration Assistant before. I'll take a look.

Thanks for the advice. I'll get the SSD towards the end of next week and install it. What about the suction cups and the torx screwdriver to open up the iMac? Who sells those?
Click to expand...

iFixit for quality stuff or eBay for cheaper stuff.
 
T

The Real Abed

Perma-Junior
EmiPrime said:
That's really impressive. I love how easy OS X upgrades are.
Click to expand...
I probably overshot by one version. It was probably 10.1, not 10.0. Because a year after I got my first Mac I suffered the last data loss I will ever have. That was the point that opened my eyes and turned me into the backup evangelist I am now. A year after my HDD died and I lost everything for the last time, it started dying again so I immediately went out and bought a FireWire HDD. So I guess technically I have files on my hard drive from 2001 or 2002. 15 years I've kept my data.
 
U

User 479360

Banned
I have an old, 2006 MacBook Pro, and I'd like to scan it for viruses. I have ClamXav on it, but obviously that program has changed into Malwarebytes.

Is there anything up to date that will work on 10.5.8?
 
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