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[whytemyke]

Does anyone else ever see certain professional sport coaches and just wonder why the hell they're so popular?

I see Doc Rivers running up and down the sideline in this Boston Celtics v. Indiana Pacers game right now, and when I think about it, he's never really done anything of note in terms of coaching. Yet still everyone just goes apeshit about how good he is. Same with Jeff Van Gundy for the Rockets. "Oh he's just a great coach." Since when? He certainly hasn't proved it in the past 10 years.

You see these coaches everywhere and on every level. It just annoys me that because people think they coach a good team that they're a good coach. Like Phil Jackson, too. What's he done when he hasn't had one of the most dominating players in the history of basketball on his teams? How many championships has he won without Jordan or Shaq on his team?

 

[Ninja Scooter]

how many championships have Jordan and Shaq won without Phil? You dont win 9 rings by accident.

 

[themadcowtipper]

When I read the thread title the first person I thought of was Phil Jackson, but he is way to obvious. I would go with Dick "Crying Man" Vermil.

 

[DMczaf]

how many championships have Jordan and Shaq won without Phil? You dont win 9 rings by accident.

And yet, the Lakers let the man go.

 

[whytemyke]

Vermiel at least won a superbowl with a grocery-bagger at QB. how can you not give Vermiel props for that?! haha.

I'm not saying Jackson isn't GOOD... he's just not as good as a lot of other coaches. And by the way Shaq is playing, he COULD win a championship without Jackson. Does that count as even more evidence towards Jackson being overrated?

 

[AstroLad]

Phil always gets mentioned in these threads, but imo he is not overrated at all, if anything he is underrated in that people always go "OMG BUT HE HAD SUPERSTARS" even though those superstars never won shit without him and he has about a billion freaking titles for Christ's sake. imo he is an excellent coach; you don't have to coach shit teams and make them to be decent to be a good coach, that means you are just good at polishing turds, you need to make the very best out of what you have, which Phil almost always did.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

And yet, the Lakers let the man go.

he's coming back bitch! He just needed a full year off to sex up Jeanie.

 

[etiolate]

Phil Jackson is way overrated. I love how people pump him up for being great at managing the egos of modern athletes, but the Kobe-Shaq fued only got worse and worse since he joined the Lakers. Did he manage Jordan's ego? Hell no, that ego is bigger than the cosmos. He doesn't manage egos, he just gets small egoed role players. As soon as he had some injuries on the Lakers he got punked by the Pistons. Phil is just another coach who is only as good as the talent he has, the difference is he waits until he has a team with the best talent. He takes over teams already built, who have indeed not won anything yet, but that little buffer is only amazing if you think that teams suddenly become championship quality in their first year of being together.

 

[Lathentar]

9 Rings certainly aren't a fluke. Phil Jackson is far from overrated.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Phil always gets mentioned in these threads, but imo he is not overrated at all, if anything he is underrated in that people always go "OMG BUT HE HAD SUPERSTARS" even though those superstars never won shit without him and he his a billion freaking titles for Christ's sake. imo he is an excellent coach; you don't have to coach shit teams and make them to be decent to be a good coach, that means you are just good at polishing turds, you need to make the very best out of what you have, which Phil almost always did.

Who can win without superstars?
How many rings did Red Auerbach win without Russel?
How many rings did Pat Riley win without Magic?
How many rings did Magic win witout Kareem?
How many rings did MJ win without Scottie (and vice versa)
How many rings did Rudy T win without Hakeem?
How many rings did Pop win without Duncan?

Lets not forget the year Michael retired he took the Bulls, with no other significant improvements, to 55 wins and a bad call away from the East Conference Finals.

 

[Cloudy]

PAUL PIERCE = MORON :lol

 

[whytemyke]

And these superstars he has DO get to their respective conference championships on considerably crappier teams than the ones that Jackson takes them to championships with. Shaq got to the East finals with Orlando and will do it again with Miami. Jordan did it with NOBODY.

...on a sidenote, paul pierce just got ejected with 12.4 seconds left while his team was up by 1 and had the ball. Dude got fouled (as expected) and then pushed Jamal Tinsley down... getting a T and puttin Reggie Miller on the line to tie it up. what kinda douchebag does that to his team?

/end OT rant.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

And these superstars he has DO get to their respective conference championships on considerably crappier teams than the ones that Jackson takes them to championships with. Shaq got to the East finals with Orlando and will do it again with Miami. Jordan did it with NOBODY.

if you want a guy that can get you to the conference finals, fine, there are plenty of guys that can do it, regardless of talent. Jim OBrien, Rick Adelman, Rick Carlisle, Don Nelson, Jeff Van gundy, but there's a reason Phil has more rings than any other active coaches in the NBA COMBINED. Getting championships is hard, and Phil has enough of them to fill up both hands, how anyone can consider him overrated is beyond me.

 

[whytemyke]

I'm not saying he's bad... he's just not this coaching God that everyone makes him out to be. He takes AWESOME players and fills them in with awesome role players, then gets what he can out of the role players. And if he was as good as everyone thinks he is, then he wouldn't have sat back and watched his team self-combust around him last year and lose to a far weaker Detroit team in 5.

Do you think he could coach Detroit to a championship last year? I mean seriously... switch roles. Put Brown in Jacksons shoes and Jackson in Browns. Do you think Jackson even gets past the Pacers? Of course not, cuz he can't do anything unless he's got a single player that'll average 30 a game.

This is like the debate between Terrel Davis and Barry Sanders. TD has more superbowls and beat Barry for single-season rushing. Who's better? Well, put Barry behind Denvers OL and Terrel behind Detroits and you'll see your answer.

 

[Archaix]

Larry Brown in the past year became very overrated. As soon as he won the title, he was being put into the conversation of best of all time.

Bull-shit. He's good. But the best coach of all time doesn't fuck up the god damned Olympics. Nobody fucks up the Olympics. Any of us could have coached the olympic team to a better finish. Christ, we'd all at least have rode the younger stars as far as they'd carry the team.

Honestly now, does anybody really want to argue that a team consisting of Dwayne Wade, Carmello Anthony, Lebron James, and Amare Stoudemire shouldn't have won the gold medal?

 

[whytemyke]

Larry Brown in the past year became very overrated. As soon as he won the title, he was being put into the conversation of best of all time.

Bull-shit. He's good. But the best coach of all time doesn't fuck up the god damned Olympics. Nobody fucks up the Olympics. Any of us could have coached the olympic team to a better finish. Christ, we'd all at least have played Carmello and Lebron.

Only coach to win on every single level... college, pro and a Gold in the olympics. The Gold was about as much of a coaching job as Phil Jackson puts in on a nightly basis though, so yeah. But the point still stands that it speaks for something. (I know that I wouldn't put him in the same category as Jackson either, though.)

 

[whytemyke]

regardless of the jackson argument... what do you guys think about this Doc Rivers and Jeff VanGundy stuff? Agree/Disagree?

 

[alejob]

Phil Jackson is overrated. I want him to come back so that he shows his real face.

 

[bionic77]

And yet, the Lakers let the man go.

The Lakers are getting him back and at least they kept one superstar around.

Refresh my memory, who stuck around with the Bulls after 1998?

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

When I read the thread title the first person I thought of was Phil Jackson, but he is way to obvious. I would go with Dick "Crying Man" Vermil.

drop dead

 

[DMczaf]

The Lakers are getting him back and at least they kept one superstar around.

Refresh my memory, who stuck around with the Bulls after 1998?

That's because you dont have Darth Cheeseburger around

"Players don't win championships, organizations do."

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I'm not saying he's bad... he's just not this coaching God that everyone makes him out to be. He takes AWESOME players and fills them in with awesome role players, then gets what he can out of the role players. And if he was as good as everyone thinks he is, then he wouldn't have sat back and watched his team self-combust around him last year and lose to a far weaker Detroit team in 5.

well i never hear anyone call him a "coaching god". If anything, he's a little underrated in some circles IMO. Usually people just say "one of the greatest coaches in NBA history", which you can't really argue (the stats speak for themselves). Also, he TURNS these guys into awesome players. Why do you think that for the longest time both Shaq and MJ said they'd never play for another coach? Look at the Lakers pre-Jackson. That team was even MORE stacked with Del Harris at the helm. Nick Van Exel, Shaq, Eddie Jones, Elden Campbell, in addition to Kobe, yet they were continaullly getting swept and underachieving. Phil comes in and all of a sudden they are a much more disciplined team. Kobe becomes a clutch playoff performer and Shaq busts out the most dominant season of his career and the Lakers win 67 games on route to a 3peat. You think thats a coincidence? As for the Pistons/Lakers final of last season, i don't agree that they were "far weaker", not by a longshot. That series showed that they were much more athletic and faster, and were able to use that to exploit our weaknesses and pretty much run us out of the building in every game.

Do you think he could coach Detroit to a championship last year? I mean seriously... switch roles. Put Brown in Jacksons shoes and Jackson in Browns. Do you think Jackson even gets past the Pacers? Of course not, cuz he can't do anything unless he's got a single player that'll average 30 a game.

Larry Brown and the Pistons of last year were more of a fluke (not in a disrespectful way), but look at the recent history of the NBA, the last 30 years or so, and you'll see it littered with names like Magic, Kareem, Larry, Isaiah, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan winning titles. All teams dominated by 1 or 2 SUPERstars. What exactly is different from what Phil Jackson has done as opposed to those coaches? Except that he did it 9 times instead of just 2 or 3 or 5.

As for comparing Phil and Larry, they are far different types of coaches. I don't think you can neccesarily switch the 2 of them and Larry would have success with the Lakers while Phil would flop in Detroit. Lets remember that Larry HAD a guy that could "average 30 a game" in Philly and that little experiment didn't end with a Larry O'Brien trophy. If he couldn't handle the ego/drama of Iverson without having a heart attack, how exactly would he deal with Shaq/Kobe?

 

[whytemyke]

The Lakers are getting him back and at least they kept one superstar around.

Refresh my memory, who stuck around with the Bulls after 1998?

Refresh my memory... how many bulls were offered the kind of money that Kobe was offered? And Jerry Krause isn't a pushover like Jerry Buss...

lot of good it did them. nobody will play with kobe unless they get phil jackson or some other high caliber coach back, according to Ray Allen.

 

[bionic77]

Phil gets underrated because for a long time there were a lot of crazy Jordaphiles who didn't want to give credit to anyone other than Jordan for their wins.

 

[DMczaf]

Phil gets underrated because for a long time there were a lot of crazy Jordaphiles who didn't want to give credit to anyone other than Jordan for their wins.

We all know the Lakers owe their titles to Jack Nicholson

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Jordan does deserve all the credit for SOMEthing.

"Why son? Why couldn't you just pay off your bookie?"

 

[whytemyke]

well i never hear anyone call him a "coaching god". If anything, he's a little underrated in some circles IMO. Usually people just say "one of the greatest coaches in NBA history", which you can't really argue (the stats speak for themselves). Also, he TURNS these guys into awesome players. Why do you think that for the longest time both Shaq and MJ said they'd never play for another coach? Look at the Lakers pre-Jackson. That team was even MORE stacked with Del Harris at the helm. Nick Van Exel, Shaq, Eddie Jones, Elden Campbell, in addition to Kobe, yet they were continaullly getting swept and underachieving. Phil comes in and all of a sudden they are a much more disciplined team. Kobe becomes a clutch playoff performer and Shaq busts out the most dominant season of his career and the Lakers win 67 games on route to a 3peat. You think thats a coincidence? As for the Pistons/Lakers final of last season, i don't agree that they were "far weaker", not by a longshot. That series showed that they were much more athletic and faster, and were able to use that to exploit our weaknesses and pretty much run us out of the building in every game.

I'm a Pistons fan so I have no need to argue.

Larry Brown and the Pistons of last year were more of a fluke (not in a disrespectful way), but look at the recent history of the NBA, the last 30 years or so, and you'll see it littered with names like Magic, Kareem, Larry, Isaiah, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan winning titles. All teams dominated by 1 or 2 SUPERstars. What exactly is different from what Phil Jackson has done as opposed to those coaches? Except that he did it 9 times instead of just 2 or 3 or 5.

Well, the only coach to coach more than one of those players, besides Phil, was Pat Riley, and I think Pat Riley is one of the most overrated coaches EVER, bar none, end of argument, heh. You put Chuck Daly from Detroit and then put him on the Rockets, well, lets just say they win more than 2 championships.

As for comparing Phil and Larry, they are far different types of coaches. I don't think you can neccesarily switch the 2 of them and Larry would have success with the Lakers while Phil would flop in Detroit. Lets remember that Larry HAD a guy that could "average 30 a game" in Philly and that little experiment didn't end with a Larry O'Brien trophy. If he couldn't handle the ego/drama of Iverson without having a heart attack, how exactly would he deal with Shaq/Kobe?

The thing is Larry DID handle Iverson very well. Don't you remember the love they had for each other the last 2 years they worked together? The reason Philly couldn't do shit is because stupid Pat Croce was one of the worst executives in the NBA and would constantly trade players like Jerry Stackhouse (a SOLID second-man for AI) for players like Theo Ratliff.

I just honestly think Phil is not nearly as good as everyone believes he is. But you're definitely right on with that stuperstar fact. What's the statistic... like only 8 different teams have won the NBA championship in the last 22 years or so?

 

[bionic77]

Jordan does deserve all the credit for SOMEthing.

"Why son? Why couldn't you just pay off your bookie?"

:lol

You are going straight to hell!

 

[Bat]

Rick Adelman, no questions asked. No one has more 4th quarter playoff collapses to their names.

Also: Don Nelson, George Karl, and any MLB manager.

 

[Chony]

Mike Holmgren

 

[etiolate]

If you switch Phil and Larry you get Larry winning a ring and Phil not. Larry took a philly team with 1 superstar to the finals. Do you think Phil can take this Kobe-lakers team to the finals? No.


And how is Rick Adleman overrated? Who is rating him high?

 

[Pimpwerx]

When I read the thread title the first person I thought of was Phil Jackson, but he is way to obvious. I would go with Dick "Crying Man" Vermil.

You, sir, have no heart. Now you're gonna make him cry again. :lol Seriously, Dick Vermeil rocks. One of my favorite NFL coaches. All his players love him too, eventhough he's a total softy. PEACE.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

chony = friend

here are the most overrated coaches of all time (in this order):

1. vince lombardi
2. mike holmgren
3. dick vermeil
4. jimmy johnson
5. bill parcells
6. bill belicheck
7. mike martz

 

[Archaix]

chony = friend

here are the most overrated coaches of all time (in this order):

1. vince lombardi
2. mike holmgren
3. dick vermeil
4. jimmy johnson
5. bill parcells
6. bill belicheck
7. mike martz

:lol

I disagree greatly with so very much of your list. Lombardi, Vermeil(he's a great offensive coach, and that's about all he's credited with being), Parcells (Although I see where you're coming from there) and Belichek should not be on the list.

But that's okay, because it's a crime that Chuck Noll and Bill Walsh are both consistantly left out of the "best coaches of all time" list. We've got a bond, like that.

Also, because Mike Martz belongs on the most overrated of all time list as long as he is in the employ of any NFL team as head coach.

 

[Lambtron]

Holmgren.

 

[whytemyke]

I think Steve Spurrier gets put on this list, too. Same with Bobby Bowden and Bobby Knight.

How is Bell Belicheck on that list? Are you stupid? He's only won 3 superbowls in four years with zero stars and an average quarterback.

 

[siege]

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

How is Bell Belicheck on that list? Are you stupid? He's only won 3 superbowls in four years with zero stars and an average quarterback.

belicheck is a fraud. look at his days in cleveland or his "wah wah wah im a fucking baby i refuse to coach the jets!". i find it funny how people give a guy like eli manning a lot of shit for not wanting to be drafted by a team, but belicheck basically bailed on the jets a day after they named him head coach and no one brings it up. he is a straight bitch and will be exposed for exactly what he is this year: an average coach

 

[DJ_Tet]

George fucking SEIFART

 

[DJ_Tet]

belicheck is a fraud. look at his days in cleveland or his "wah wah wah im a fucking baby i refuse to coach the jets!". i find it funny how people give a guy like eli manning a lot of shit for not wanting to be drafted by a team, but belicheck basically bailed on the jets a day after they named him head coach and no one brings it up. he is a straight bitch and will be exposed for exactly what he is this year: an average coach

I bring it up, but from a different POV. He went from the AFC Championship game JETS to the lowly Patriots.

 

[whytemyke]

belicheck is a fraud. look at his days in cleveland or his "wah wah wah im a fucking baby i refuse to coach the jets!". i find it funny how people give a guy like eli manning a lot of shit for not wanting to be drafted by a team, but belicheck basically bailed on the jets a day after they named him head coach and no one brings it up. he is a straight bitch and will be exposed for exactly what he is this year: an average coach

hahaha, and who's gonna take them out?

I don't think that because of what Eli did, anyone would say he sucks as a QB. Elway did the same thing... nobody's saying he sucks. You're comparing character with talent and you can't do that. They're mutually exclusive. Otherwise the best WR in the league is still Jerry Rice.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

uh, no he didn't. he went from an 8-8 jets team in 1999 to a patriots team who was also 8-8 in 1999. he bitched out on the jets because their situation was looking pretty grim at the time (keyshawn and vinny injured/getting old, the team as a whole looking to have run its course)


p.s. whitemyke: i'm not saying it has anything to do with his coaching talent (or lackthereof), i was just making an observation. he is an overrated bitch, and i guarantee the patriots wont make the playoffs this year. what do you fellas think about THAT?

 

[DJ_Tet]

Oh so the Jets weren't coming off an AFC Championship game.

You know what I meant, and my point stands. I thought it was classless too, but I don't know what happened in those meetings. Did Belicheck actually get introduced as the Head Coach of the Jets? The way I remember it, Parcells stepped down and named Belicheck his successor. Belicheck stepped down the next day. He was a bust in Cleveland though.

 

[DJ_Tet]

i guarantee the patriots wont make the playoffs this year. what do you fellas think about THAT?

I guarantee that won't be the only stupid prediction you make that doesn't come true this year

What do you think about that?

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

he was named the successor and i BELIEVE (not 100% certain as i dont follow the jets religiously) introduced as the coach at the same conference.

what point stands? both teams were 8-8. the patriots weren't a "bottom feeder", or the worst team in the league. he bitched out because the patriots LOOKED to be an easier task thank the shambles that was the jets

true we dont know what happened in those meetings, but it seems awfully suspicious that he just walks out on a team/organization after coaching them for a number of years. you would think he'd be very excited and appreciative about being given the chance to be a coach in the nfl again after his failure with the browns. apparently not

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

I guarantee that won't be the only stupid prediction you make that doesn't come true this year

What do you think about that?

49ers in the playoffs, patriots not in the playoffs

that hits my ear just fine friend... just fine!

 

[Eminem]

anyone who says phil jackson is stupid. 9 rings and overrated? haha, good one.

also, most NFL coaches(and some exes) aren't that good at all. Holmgren, Spurrier, Maruicci, Dungy, Gruden, etc.

the list goes on. IMO, Basketball coaches most effect the game. And even then it's hard to second guess them. NFL coaches are the easiest to blame, unfortunately.

 

[whytemyke]

Yeah... they're going to go from being what, 28-4 over the last two seasons, to being 8-8? Hm. Interesting.

You can't say he's overrated as a coach if you only have a problem with his character.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

george seifert lol i missed that one dj

you are right though he was overrated. my fondest memory of seifert is that he allowed us to be eliminated by the packers about a gajillion years in a row. and by fondest i mean only.

fuck you seifert!

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

Yeah... they're going to go from being what, 28-4 over the last two seasons, to being 8-8? Hm. Interesting.

You can't say he's overrated as a coach if you only have a problem with his character.

that particular character issue is directly tied to his lack of confidence in his own coaching abilities and his "not my problem!" approach to the mess that was the jets at that time.

he has also been shitty in cleveland. we will find out this year what he is made of now that he doesn't have his bed buddies running the show on offense and defense.


p.s. i didn't say the pats would be 8-8, i said they would miss the playoffs. i predict a record of 6-10