PCs, meet the Physics Processing Unit

T

TekunoRobby

Tag of Excellence
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=21648
The Inquirer said:
The company behind this marchitecture is called AGEIA and is a "Fabless Company" with lots of investors around, including mighty Taiwanese giant TSMC and the almost almighty Bank'o'America. Here in San Francisco's Games Developer Conference the firm revealed its chip called symbolically PhysX. It’s the world first Physics Processing Unit (PPU), they reckon. These guys have taped out the chip and made a final product and reference card design ready as we write.

The answer is actually an add in card with either PCI Express or a PCI interface with up to 128MB of dedicated GDDR 3 memory that will take over all physics in the games. We saw some cool demos done in software on a laptop of what this card can do. It can operate with 32000 particles/rigid bodies or should I say bones? [You should, Fudo, you should. Ed.] When we talk about fluids, such cards can handle up to 50000 rigid bones. A CPU can do a couple hundred at the most.

Such cards can give some life to collision detection and can for example make a character go through grass and move every single grass while walking, adding a higher lever of realism into the scene than ever before. Looks cool I have to say. What need for grass?

We also saw some liquid simulations, where you could see blood spilled more realistically than ever before. It's especially good when you blow up a house into the smallest infinitesimal pieces, or bricks and mortar as the INQ calls them. It actually looks out of this world. I cannot imagine this in a war game. It will blow your minds. It almost looks like Bosnia and Herzegovina 12 years back.
Click to expand...

I think this idea is simply awesome but that begs the question, will gamers vie for yet another expansion card to an already busy PC? I'm hoping people pick up on this technology very soon and either fully adopt it into the market or have the ability to combine this with the already powerful GPU cards of the near future.

I can't wait for the day that we see the Havok engine running off the PPU in conjuction with a game, that would be some mind blowingly incredible stuff.
 
nitewulf said:
blargh.
*thinks back to the days of math co-processors*
*shudders*
Click to expand...
I don't think this idea will really take off either. :(

I think the optimal solution would be to incorperate it into a GPU, sort of like an extension? But what do I know about hardware and technical limitations.


Who knows...
The Inquirer said:
Companies such as Epic are actually very interested in the marchitecture and we are told that at least 15 significant games are going to be released using this marchitecture. We are told to look for the games by the end of the year and that's the timing for the so called "time to market".
Click to expand...
 
nitewulf said:
blargh.
*thinks back to the days of math co-processors*
*shudders*
Click to expand...

Can't the same argument be said about GPUs? And yet look at their position today, far more important than CPUs even. Games like Half Life 2 are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to physics, and in 5 years this current PPU will by like the first Voodoo card.
 
I could see these being added to the graphics board, but definitely not as a stand alone card. The only question is whether or not the bandwidth is there..
 
Straight from the AGEIA website:

http://www.ageia.com
AGEIA said:
AGEIA PhysX chip
PhysX is the world's first Physics Processing Unit (PPU), an entirely new category of processor that promises to revolutionize gaming in the same way that the graphics processing unit (GPU) did in the 1990s. By offloading software physics processing from the CPU and GPU, the PPU completes the triangle of gameplay, graphics and physics, balancing the load of these processing tasks and enabling pervasive interactive reality in tomorrow's games.

PhysX Processor Architecture has been designed to enable radical acceleration of:
Rigid body dynamics
Universal collision detection
Finite element analysis
Soft body dynamics
Fluid dynamics
Hair simulation
Clothing simulation

NovodeX Physics SDK
The NovodeX Physics SDK is a stable, high-performance solution for game developers to enable physics-based gameplay and effects in PC and console titles. A powerful API for the PhysX PPU, NovodeX enables game developers to inject both software-only and hardware-accelerated features into their games. The NovodeX Physics SDK is also the first and only asynchronous (multithreaded) physics API capable of unleashing the power of multiprocessor gaming systems.

Key features:
Stable, high-performance solver
First and only multiprocessing physics API
PC and console support
Works alongside other game engines
Supports vehicles, rag dolls, and character controllers
Integrates with any renderer
Full complement of code samples and tutorials
World-class developer support and custom solutions
Click to expand...

Their list of "Featured Partners" include:
Epic Games
Secret Level
Cryptic Studios
ASPYR
 
A physics card could warrant a purchase for me if it could somehow improve performance in standard desktop applications. i'd be much more interested in an AI card.
 
These guys want to introduce yet another piece of hardware for games? There are enough problems with pc games as it is with all the different hardware and shitty drivers out there, don't need another thrown into the mix. The only way this would be acceptable to me is if this was added to graphics cards or was guaranteed not to go obsolete within a year or 2.
 
pj325is said:
"PC and console support "

What what
Click to expand...

Novodex is just a physics runtime and API, it's been around for a while. They're just saying that they have software that takes advantages of PPUs. It would be awesome if any of the consoles had a chip like this installed. Having a bomb land in the middle of a 400-man formation and having all the soldiers flying with ragdoll would be quite the site to behold, with accurately modeled particle dynamics for the soil as well of course.


And Aoi,
AI despite being one of the earliest forms of computation is STILL very decentralized with little to no standards. For graphics, rendering is rendering is rendering, physics is the same, but each AI is totally different, unless you start modelling cognitive abilities directly.
 
aoi tsuki said:
A physics card could warrant a purchase for me if it could somehow improve performance in standard desktop applications. i'd be much more interested in an AI card.
Click to expand...
Well, in 2003, there was this conference in the Netherlands (called Level Up) and some group of people was discussing the fundamental design for such an AI card. So we should see it some time int the future.
I will look up the documents and find the group/company to see what their progress is.
 
Xenon's secret weapon against PS3?


http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21016

Here's what version said at:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=466676#466676

********************************************************
XENON:

- 2 core G5 at 3 GHZ with 2 MB cache
- 8 vectorprocessor in another chip at 3GHZ
- ati gpu with 32 unified shader, 500 MHZ

*********************************************************

And this diagram of "x2" at:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=446388#446388
Click to expand...
.
.



M$ use 3 processor in x2


CPU --- PhysicsUnit
|
GPU
Click to expand...
 
yes, let's just go ahead and replace gp architectures with collections of video game specific asics. fantastic idea, guys.
 
Xenon's secret weapon against PS3?


http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21016


Quote:
Here's what version said at:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewt...p=466676#466676

********************************************************
XENON:

- 2 core G5 at 3 GHZ with 2 MB cache
- 8 vectorprocessor in another chip at 3GHZ
- ati gpu with 32 unified shader, 500 MHZ

*********************************************************

And this diagram of "x2" at:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewt...p=446388#446388




.
.




Quote:
M$ use 3 processor in x2


CPU --- PhysicsUnit
|
GPU
Click to expand...




^^^^Now *THAT* would outright rock^^^^
 
It's possible that this will be in Xenon, but I don't think it's very likely. But it will be a nice surprise if true.

I think the Xenon processors could handle the physics probably just as well as this chip.
 
I think the Xenon processors could handle the physics probably just as well as this chip.
Click to expand...

Well they do claim:

When we talk about fluids, such cards can handle up to 50000 rigid bones. A CPU can do a couple hundred at the most.
Click to expand...

Although that is impressive, I have to ask;

1) which "CPU" are they talking about, exactly (Pentium2?, Athlon 64?, CELL?)

and

2) How much bandwidth it is going to require to get this kind of performance
 
Kleegamefan said:
Well they do claim:



Although that is impressive, I have to ask;

1) which "CPU" are they talking about, exactly (Pentium2?, Athlon 64?, CELL?)

and

2) How much bandwidth it is going to require to get this kind of performance
Click to expand...

Probably x86 CPUs. But having to buy another card for physics is just bullshit though, unless it costs $30 or so. The only place it could really work is on consoles. Interesting that AGEIA is also part of XNA (though doesn't mean so much).
 
Do you remember the "leaked" document?

In it appears and additional processor, I believe that could be the PPU that we are talking here or the sound system.
 
Hmm....well, if that mystery chip is the PPU then you might see something impressive there....

Possibly more impressive than any PC on the market as XENON, @ >22Gb/sec has greater memory bandwidth than any PC (even though it would be shared between R500, XENON multi-core CPU and this PPU)....
 
This is really dumb and it's not going to fly. No way, no how.

I'll eat crow if it does.

Functions are moving back to the CPU, not away from it. Just look at sound, Doom 3 and Half-Life 2 both don't use sound acceleration.
 
..Um you guys do know how much bandwidth PCI-E has right...., I dont think thats gonna be a problem. Not to mention that with the state of todays motherboards there really isnt much to saturate that bus, everything is integrated to the board. NIC, sound, heck even extra SATA ports, all on the board, and none of those come close to saturating the PCI-E bus, which is far more efficient with its point to point architeture than the PCI shared bus. There wont be a damn thing in those slots for most systems anyway besides a vid card I think the idea has some merit.
 
http://sega.jp/release/nr050308_1.html

Babblefished:

Adopting the physical simulation technology of the AGEIA corporation Sega, at the time of game software developing for the next generation home

2005 March 8th corporation Sega

Corporation Sega (head office: The Tokyo Ota Ku, Representative President and COO: Header Hisao, following Sega), for game machine and PC for the next generation home at the time of game software developing, the AGEIA corporation (the head office: The American St. Louis, CEO: Manju Hedge) Physical simulation technology ' NovodeX? ' We concluded the license agreement regarding adoption with the same company. ' NovodeX? ' For game machine and PC for the next generation home it is mass of the object which simulates the physical law of the actual world faithfully as the middleware in game software developing by adopting, appears in the game and the physical simulation technology which can reproduce rigidity to real

In addition, the hardware physical arithmetical unit ' PhysX which the AGEIA corporation develops on the basis of this license agreement? ' It becomes possible to use for the Sega game software development. Because of this, we reproduce the world where the opportunity where compared to real expression of physical phenomenon such as explosion and destruction becomes possible, sees so far in only scientific research field it was not, is simulated physically completely with the game software. * Company name and the product name which are stated are registered trade mark or trade mark of each company
Click to expand...

In a nutshell, Sega is licensing PhysX software for use in upcoming Sega PC AND CONSOLE GAMES



....the thick plottens....
 
Kleegamefan said:
2) How much bandwidth it is going to require to get this kind of performance
Click to expand...

Well, they do claim it works over a PCI-E bus, which is the same amount of bandwidth a graphics card needs. I'm not sure how feasible this is to work in a standard PC processing environment though - I don't even have 1 PCI-E slot on my mobo, so I don't know if there are lots of them out there with multiple PCI-E slots.
 
It wouldn't surprise me in the least if we see this sort of thing integrated into next-next generation consoles and vid cards.
 
Sounds like it could lead to a revolution in the way games are made and played. :lol When's Iwata's GDC speech again?

But really. This type of hardware is really MUCH more suited for the console space over that of the PC. Offering a specialized chip for physics could really even the playing field when it come to the ps3 with its monster of a CPU. Also if it does show up in a console, and ports from the machine to a different one would be rather bitchy. If the chip is cheap I so hope that some company uses it in a console.
 
Redbeard said:
It means more than a forum-goers opinion.
Click to expand...

Actually, it doesn't mean more or less than anyone elses opinion. The market is either going to go for it or not. That's what counts, and I sincerely doubt the PC market is going to go for this sort of thing. Video is one thing, we all need video cards or onboard video. Physics, which is largely floating point based mathematics, is entirely a different matter altogether.

Furthermore, the PC industry is moving towards multi-core CPUs. Games will be able to be coded in order to take advantage of multiple cores. They are moving to multiple cores for a reason, and its parrallelism (i.e. Physics could be bound to a particular core).

What we need is improved APIs like the Havok physics engine that takes advantage of these things. Not a new card that does what already existing technology can provide.
 
Dr_Cogent said:
Actually, it doesn't mean more or less than anyone elses opinion.
Click to expand...

Sure it does. Show me Gabe Newell or Carmack saying what a shitty idea it is and that it'll never take off and you'll have a point. They're the ones making the games, they're the ones who can push for it.
 
Redbeard said:
Sure it does. Show me Gabe Newell or Carmack saying what a shitty idea it is and that it'll never take off and you'll have a point. They're the ones making the games, they're the ones who can push for it.
Click to expand...

Games != Hardware

Carmack wants plenty of things he doesn't get, because its all about dollars and cents. He can push for whatever he likes, but it doesn't mean that the hardware industry is going to embrace it because if there is little possibility that it will be profitable, it won't happen.

And that's the angle I am coming from. I don't see how this could possibly be a profitable endeavor.
 
Dr_Cogent said:
Games != Hardware

Carmack wants plenty of things he doesn't get, because its all about dollars and cents. He can push for whatever he likes, but it doesn't mean that the hardware industry is going to embrace it because if there is little possibility that it will be profitable, it won't happen.

And that's the angle I am coming from. I don't see how this could possibly be a profitable endeavor.
Click to expand...

I guarantee you that if Half-Life 3 were to come out and require a physics processing unit the market for it would take off. The game might sell less than 1/2 of what it would without requiring a PPU, but it would still force widespread adoption. So yes, those other people's opinions do matter more.
 
Dr_Cogent said:
Epic can like it all they want, doesn't mean it's going to happen.
Click to expand...



Seeing as how Epic's game engines are THE MOST licensed engines in the industry, yeah it probably does mean it's going to happen.

In any event, their word means a hell of a lot more than yours. :lol
 
Nerevar said:
I guarantee you that if Half-Life 3 were to come out and require a physics processing unit the market for it would take off. The game might sell less than 1/2 of what it would without requiring a PPU, but it would still force widespread adoption. So yes, those other people's opinions do matter more.
Click to expand...

Ha! You think one game would do that?

Most people who play HL and HL2 have POS computers. No way, no how would HL3 usher in this sort of thing.

If HL3 required the card, Gabe and pals would be retarded for doing so and HL3 would flop.

Reanimated said:
Seeing as how Epic's game engines are THE MOST licensed engines in the industry, yeah it probably does mean it's going to happen.

In any event, their word means a hell of a lot more than yours. :lol
Click to expand...

Believe whatever you like. I'll eat virtual crow if it ever comes to fruition. I'm not too worried it will though.

You guys are coming at it from a hardcore gamer perspective, which isn't where all the money lies. We are the minority. There is no way PC gaming is going to adopt something that would further complicate the requirements for PC games.
 
Just like for graphics - most games will probably end up with physics sliders. So if you have the card - you get more realistic physics.

It's also likely that high end gaming MB manufacturers like Abit and Asus could integrate this chip into their new gaming board designs.

Also, seeing as how this company is an XNA partner and they'll soon be annoucing "console partnerships", it's likely that this chip will be in Xenon, which gives PC devs using XNA much more incentive to integrated these features into their co-devloped games.
 
Dr_Cogent said:
Ha! You think one game would do that?

Most people who play HL and HL2 have POS computers. No way no how would HL3 usher in this sort of thing.

If HL3 required the card, Gabe and pals would be retarded for doing so and HL3 would flop.
Click to expand...

You can feel free to believe whatever you want to believe. I'm pointing out that the game might sell a lot less, but it would force adoption in the higher-end segment of the market, which will then cause a trickle-down effect to the lower end of the market (similar what happened to GPUs). I think you seriously underestimate the capacity of high-end games to push hardware. Take a look at the graphics card market over the past few years and look at how the introduction of high-end games (doom 3, Half-Life 2, etc) has affected the market. You shouldn't be surprised at the results.
 
Reanimated said:
Just like for graphics - most games will probably end up with physics sliders. So if you have the card - you get more realistic physics.

It's also likely that high end gaming MB manufacturers like Abit and Asus could integrate this chip into their new gaming board designs.

Also, seeing as how this company is an XNA partner and they'll soon be annoucing "console partnerships", it's likely that this chip will be in Xenon, which gives PC devs using XNA much more incentive to integrated these features into their co-devloped games.
Click to expand...

Someone can start a thread if it ever comes to be (which it won't), and I will admit I was wrong.

Nerevar said:
You can feel free to believe whatever you want to believe. I'm pointing out that the game might sell a lot less, but it would force adoption in the higher-end segment of the market. I think you seriously underestimate the capacity of high-end games to push hardware. Take a look at the graphics card market over the past few years and look at how the introduction of high-end games (doom 3, Half-Life 2, etc) has affected the market. You shouldn't be surprised at the results.
Click to expand...

Graphics, like I said before, are entirely different. They aren't simply something that can be assigned to a CPU core and ran in a seperate thread at this point. What's next? An AI card? I don't think so. Functions are tending to move back to the CPU, not away from it.
 
odds are, this is something that Nvidia/Ati/Sony et al would license, and include on their own hardware. it's still too specialised to expect most gamers to shell out extra for a seperate card, but it's a great bullet point to put on the box of a console/videocard.
 
Dr_Cogent said:
Graphics, like I said before, are entirely different. They aren't simply something that can be assigned to a CPU core and ran in a seperate thread at this point. What's next? An AI card? I don't think so. Functions are tending to move back to the CPU, not away from it.
Click to expand...

Interesting, I seem to recall these exact same debates in 97. But the introduction of fully 3d gameworlds, realistic lighting engines, and full T&L engines gradually won over the market to the point where now every modern computer has a dedicated 3d processor of some sort (even if it's integrated onto the mobo). If a PPU can accomplish the same sort of things in realistic physics I guarantee you the same thing will happen. You can bookmark this thread and come back and laugh and spit on me if I'm wrong.*



*Don't spit on me. That would be cruel.
 
Nerevar said:
Interesting, I seem to recall these exact same debates in 97. But the introduction of fully 3d gameworlds, realistic lighting engines, and full T&L engines gradually won over the market to the point where now every modern computer has a dedicated 3d processor of some sort (even if it's integrated onto the mobo). If a PPU can accomplish the same sort of things in realistic physics I guarantee you the same thing will happen. You can bookmark this thread and come back and laugh and spit on me if I'm wrong.*



*Don't spit on me. That would be cruel.
Click to expand...

I just don't see it. Especially with the way the PC industry is moving, it's going to make the idea of these cards a moot point.

And if it does come to fruition, I think I might just bow out completely from PC gaming. It's already expensive as is, and I don't need yet another component to buy to play my games. A 400 dollar video card is enough already.
 
Interesting, I seem to recall these exact same debates in 97. But the introduction of fully 3d gameworlds, realistic lighting engines, and full T&L engines gradually won over the market to the point where now every modern computer has a dedicated 3d processor of some sort (even if it's integrated onto the mobo). If a PPU can accomplish the same sort of things in realistic physics I guarantee you the same thing will happen. You can bookmark this thread and come back and laugh and spit on me if I'm wrong.*
Click to expand...

Funny you should mention that....

http://www.ageia.com/technology.html

AGEIA Physics Technologies

Gaming will never be the same with AGEIA's hardware-accelerated physics technologies. Bridging the gap between beautiful static worlds and responsive physical reality, AGEIA physics technologies enable unlimited creative possibilities for game developers. The result will re-ignite the enthusiasm of gamer and game creators alike, and propel the game industry into unexplored new markets. Experience the world of pervasive interactive reality with AGEIA technologies.

AGEIA PhysX chip

PhysX is the world's first Physics Processing Unit (PPU), an entirely new category of processor that promises to revolutionize gaming in the same way that the graphics processing unit (GPU) did in the 1990s. By offloading software physics processing from the CPU and GPU, the PPU completes the triangle of gameplay, graphics and physics, balancing the load of these processing tasks and enabling pervasive interactive reality in tomorrow's games.

PhysX Processor Architecture has been designed to enable radical acceleration of:

Rigid body dynamics
Universal collision detection
Finite element analysis
Soft body dynamics
Fluid dynamics
Hair simulation
Clothing simulation

NovodeX Physics SDK

The NovodeX Physics SDK is a stable, high-performance solution for game developers to enable physics-based gameplay and effects in PC and console titles. A powerful API for the PhysX PPU, NovodeX enables game developers to inject both software-only and hardware-accelerated features into their games. The NovodeX Physics SDK is also the first and only asynchronous (multithreaded) physics API capable of unleashing the power of multiprocessor gaming systems.

Key features:

Stable, high-performance solver
First and only multiprocessing physics API
PC and console support <==[EDIT: WTF do they mean by "console support"
Works alongside other game engines
Supports vehicles, rag dolls, and character controllers
Integrates with any renderer
Full complement of code samples and tutorials
World-class developer support and custom solutions
Click to expand...
 
thorns said:
It's possible that this will be in Xenon, but I don't think it's very likely. But it will be a nice surprise if true.

I think the Xenon processors could handle the physics probably just as well as this chip.
Click to expand...
It wasn't in Xenon last week that's for sure.
 
Reanimated said:
Ubi, Epic, Sega, MS (XNA).

Looks like somebody just got pwned. :lol
Click to expand...

Where does it say that they are using their hardware?

API's are one thing. Hardware is completely different. You guys jump the gun WAY too easy. Provide me proof that their partners are using their hardware.
 
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