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[SlimySnake]

I get that this might make me look incredibly stupid, but while I watch a lot of space videos on youtube, there one thing I simply cant seem to warp my head around:

Is space flat? Can you UP in space?

I understand that the sun bends the fabric of space which makes all the planets circle around the bend so clearly it has a floor. Floor is bent but its there. But what the hell is up there? If all the solar systems are circling a galaxy which have a massive black hole in the middle then is ALL of it flat? When you go to space do you see stars above and below you?

 

[EverydayBeast]

 

[Embearded]

I believe you are asking about the orbital plane.
All planets of our solar system are on the ~same plane.

But universe expansion is 360°, so no matter the direction you look at, there will be stars.

 

[nush]

Flat earth theory just got an upgrade.

 

[jshackles]

Space is three-dimensional, not flat. Lots of sci-fi (and even science programs) try to simplify space for human understanding by showing lots of objects on the same plane, making you think it's flat - because that's what humans are used to living on a flat surface our whole existences.

In reality, this shit is impractical - three ships convening at the same point in space all more or less oriented the same direction on the same plane and facing each other. This wouldn't happen by chance, and would take a massive amount of coordination in real life.

The planets revolving around the sun on a stable plane is the result of billions of years of gravity stabilizing a system of angular momentum. It's also why spiral galaxies seem "flat" on a more grand scale.

You could depart from Earth in a spacecraft traveling perpendicular to the orbital plane in either direction (or any direction), and there would still be space there. There isn't a "floor". There are other stars and other galaxies "above" and "below" the solar system's orbital plane.

One of the best novels explaining the basics of this concept, in my opinion, is Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card.

 

[jason10mm]

The universe is basically an expanding sphere. The whole "bending the fabric of space/time" is just a visual metaphor to describe the effects of gravity.

Until we figure out Dark Matter and more about fundamental particle interactions I don't think we are gonna change this model much. But I suspect in 200 years they will look back on our current understanding of the nature of the universe with roughly the same paternalistic head rubbing "ah, you kids and your silly theories" we have now of pre-Galilean models of the cosmos.

It's also important to remember that most of this stuff is just mathematical models and crude observed data (and observed for a relatively short period of time at that). There are LOADS of stuff we think about that can't really be proven definitively at this time.

 

[SlimySnake]

I believe you are asking about the orbital plane.
All planets of our solar system are on the ~same plane.

But universe expansion is 360°, so no matter the direction you look at, there will be stars.

But thats what bugs me. if we want to leave the solar system, why do we have to go past neptune? why not just go up?

 

[jason10mm]

Space is three-dimensional, not flat. Lots of sci-fi (and even science programs) try to simplify space for human understanding by showing lots of objects on the same plane, making you think it's flat - because that's what humans are used to living on a flat surface our whole existences.

In reality, this shit is impractical - three ships convening at the same point in space all more or less oriented the same direction on the same plane and facing each other. This wouldn't happen by chance, and would take a massive amount of coordination in real life.

Hate to break it to you but there are FIVE ships in this picture

 

[Solarstrike]

I get that this might make me look incredibly stupid, but while I watch a lot of space videos on youtube, there one thing I simply cant seem to warp my head around:

Is space flat? Can you UP in space?

I understand that the sun bends the fabric of space which makes all the planets circle around the bend so clearly it has a floor. Floor is bent but its there. But what the hell is up there? If all the solar systems are circling a galaxy which have a massive black hole in the middle then is ALL of it flat? When you go to space do you see stars above and below you?

There is no upside-down in space. If you are ever travelling in a ship and an alien ship hails you and tells you that you are upside down, be prepared for war.

 

[Alebrije]

There is nothing no matter if it's flat or 3d .....just black not even Light

 

[jshackles]

But thats what bugs me. if we want to leave the solar system, why do we have to go past neptune? why not just go up?

You're mixing science and metaphor. If you want to "leave the solar system", you are scientifically talking about traveling a far enough distance from the sun (in any direction) so that the effects of the sun's gravity are negligible. Traveling past Neptune (well, way past Neptune) is one way to do that, but you could also just go "Up" (aka perpendicular to the solar plane) the same distance.

Even though we're taught in third grade science that "our solar system" is just the sun and planets, it's actually more like a sphere that has our star in the middle of it.

When scientists say things like "an asteroid has entered our solar system", they mean the sun's gravitational pull - not that the outside space rock has nestled itself somewhere on the solar plane neatly between Mars and Jupiter

 

[SlimySnake]

Space is three-dimensional, not flat. Lots of sci-fi (and even science programs) try to simplify space for human understanding by showing lots of objects on the same plane, making you think it's flat - because that's what humans are used to living on a flat surface our whole existences.

In reality, this shit is impractical - three ships convening at the same point in space all more or less oriented the same direction on the same plane and facing each other. This wouldn't happen by chance, and would take a massive amount of coordination in real life.

The planets revolving around the sun on a stable plane is the result of billions of years of gravity stabilizing a system of angular momentum. It's also why spiral galaxies seem "flat" on a more grand scale.

You could depart from Earth in a spacecraft traveling perpendicular to the orbital plane in either direction (or any direction), and there would still be space there. There isn't a "floor". There are other stars and other galaxies "above" and "below" the solar system's orbital plane.

One of the best novels explaining the basics of this concept, in my opinion, is Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card.

The universe is basically an expanding sphere. The whole "bending the fabric of space/time" is just a visual metaphor to describe the effects of gravity.

Until we figure out Dark Matter and more about fundamental particle interactions I don't think we are gonna change this model much. But I suspect in 200 years they will look back on our current understanding of the nature of the universe with roughly the same paternalistic head rubbing "ah, you kids and your silly theories" we have now of pre-Galilean models of the cosmos.

It's also important to remember that most of this stuff is just mathematical models and crude observed data (and observed for a relatively short period of time at that). There are LOADS of stuff we think about that can't really be proven definitively at this time.

thanks so i guess this answers my questions. Space is an expanding sphere after all.

 

[jason10mm]

But thats what bugs me. if we want to leave the solar system, why do we have to go past neptune? why not just go up?

There are some pratical reasons, like stuff we want to see in our lifetimes are all on that orbital plane, so "going past Neptune" is because we want to SEE Neptune on our way to the Oort Cloud. Plus you can impart a lot of momentum to a rocket if it launches WITH the movement of Earth, so you can send it out faster if it stays roughly on the orbital plan. Going straight "up" would be sacrificing one vector of acceleration (on the x/y plane if you want to visualize it that way) for another (z axis). Until we get waaaaay better rockets this is always gonna be an issue. It's why there are "windows" for getting to other orbital bodies, you gotta wait till they are coming your way else you end up chasing them.

 

[Embearded]

But thats what bugs me. if we want to leave the solar system, why do we have to go past neptune? why not just go up?

I am not sure, but i believe due to gravity the closer solar systems are also close to our plane, so it would make more sense.
Also maybe to use gravitational slingshot?

 

[SlimySnake]

There are some pratical reasons, like stuff we want to see in our lifetimes are all on that orbital plane, so "going past Neptune" is because we want to SEE Neptune on our way to the Oort Cloud. Plus you can impart a lot of momentum to a rocket if it launches WITH the movement of Earth, so you can send it out faster if it stays roughly on the orbital plan. Going straight "up" would be sacrificing one vector of acceleration (on the x/y plane if you want to visualize it that way) for another (z axis). Until we get waaaaay better rockets this is always gonna be an issue. It's why there are "windows" for getting to other orbital bodies, you gotta wait till they are coming your way else you end up chasing them.

I am not sure, but i believe due to gravity the closer solar systems are also close to our plane, so it would make more sense.
Also maybe to use gravitational slingshot?

Yeah, the video I watched yesterday showed the voyager needed the slingshot assist from jupiter saturn and uranus just to get to neptune in our lifetime. That makes sense i guess.

 

[winjer]

But thats what bugs me. if we want to leave the solar system, why do we have to go past neptune? why not just go up?

We can go "up" and leave the solar system that way.
The reason why we send our space craft on the plane of the solar system, is to map what is in there.
Our ships are still very slow, so there is no reason to send one to map things outside our solar system plane, because there is nothing there.
Consider that the nearest star system to our solar system, is Alpha Centauri , but it's 4.4 light-years.
The other thing o consider is that our solar system is tilted 60º in relation to the Milky Way. So going straight up, meaning a 90º angle, would mean we would have nothing to see, as we would be leaving the Milky Way, into nothingness.

 

[killatopak]

Most people agree space is flat due to cmb. It it also necessary for space to be infinite and expanding. a curved space can either be close or open. Closed mean it functions similar to planets. Travel far enough and you can go back right where you started. Open is just similar to flat. The difference is that the expansion of the universe has a limit.

 

[Lukaku's First Touch]

Just thinking of the size of 'space' makes my head hurt. So amazing.

 

[PonyStation4]

Most people agree space is flat due to cmb. It it also necessary for space to be infinite and expanding. a curved space can either be close or open. Closed mean it functions similar to planets. Travel far enough and you can go back right where you started. Open is just similar to flat. The difference is that the expansion of the universe has a limit.

Isn't the generally accepted theory that the Universe expands until it runs out of energy and then collapses because there's no more particles moving?

 

[winjer]

Isn't the generally accepted theory that the Universe expands until it runs out of energy and then collapses because there's no more particles moving?

The big Crunch is an hypothetical scenario where the rate of expansion of the Universe would slow down, and then gravity would push everything back together.
By our current models, it seems like the rate of expansion is too great to be overcome by gravity. So a Big Crunch is unlikely.

 

[Solarstrike]

Most of space already happened and an Type-4 alien civilization has us trapped in a fake reality to serve their bidding.

 

[jason10mm]

Isn't the generally accepted theory that the Universe expands until it runs out of energy and then collapses because there's no more particles moving?

I've heard both theories. Makes sense to me that if ALL the known matter of the UNIVERSE is behind you, then the pull of gravity would eventually drag you back since you can't accelerate away forever. But light photons presumably COULD radiate away forever, so the universe is slowly losing mass/energy as light, starting from the Big Bang and going on for the past 14-odd billion years, gets away faster than the leading edge of protons and electrons or whatever else was kicked out early and didn't get pulled into a star to become hydrogen all heavier elements. If light photons eventually curve back around as well then you would see odd things around the edge of the universe making it seem like it was an infinite bowl instead of, if you happen to be closer to the edge, a "there are way fewer galaxies in that direction than there are in all the others" observation to support the "expanding sphere" model.

 

[jason10mm]

Most of space already happened and an Type-4 alien civilization has us trapped in a fake reality to serve their bidding.

Shhh, first rule of "we are in an alien simulation" is to not talk about "We are in an al.................................................................................................[user deleted]

 

[Alebrije]

There is nothing no matter if it's flat or 3d .....just black not even light

 

[killatopak]

Isn't the generally accepted theory that the Universe expands until it runs out of energy and then collapses because there's no more particles moving?

Yes it's a popular theory but it still has holes in it just like General Relativity does with Quantum Mechanics. One of those holes is dark energy. It's one of the forces that help keep the universe expanding. Expanding enough that it also increases the maximum required entropy for heat death.

It's like entrophy increase by 1 for every second but the expansion increases that limit by 2 every second so it can't actually initiate heat death.

Obviously, we can't be sure either way because we know very little about dark energy itself.

 

[Mossybrew]

We're not on some unmoving flat plane, while it may seem that way since we stay moving relative to the sun, the whole solar system is moving too orbiting the galaxy center.

 

[Daneel Elijah]

We're not on some unmoving flat plane, while it may seem that way since we stay moving relative to the sun, the whole solar system is moving too orbiting the galaxy center.

And the galaxy moves too! I discovered that fact in a Asimov novel and it blew my mind.

 

[Haemi]

What scientists also mean when they talk about flatness of the universe is the average curvature of space:

Is space on average not curved, so flat, it will at some point in time stop to expand and stay that way.
Is space on average convex, it will forever accelerate.
Has space a concave curvature, it will stop at some point in time and then collapse.

 

[jshackles]

And the galaxy moves too! I discovered that fact in a Asimov novel and it blew my mind.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Is space flat? Can you UP in space?

Yes space is flat, but there's no direction because it's not a single surface like a floor, it's more like a medium with countless layers like a lattice.
The models we usually use to illustrate this is a single flat surface and the objects with mass "sinking" into the surface, but it would be more accurate to say that the medium warps around the object instead, and this warping, the changing of a "straight" path, iz what we call gravity (which is why gravity isn't an actual force, but an effect).
We have no way to truly illustrate what the fabric of space actually looks like though, since space and time are the same thing.

Brian cox has some good videos on this subject, I think he explained it on rogan as well

 

[Trunx81]

Space is more bendy than Mia Khalifa. Imagine a boat on the sea, floating but pushing the water away. That´s earth.

 

[jason10mm]

We're not on some unmoving flat plane, while it may seem that way since we stay moving relative to the sun, the whole solar system is moving too orbiting the galaxy center.

Yeah, I freak my kids out by saying the earth spins around at 1000 mph, goes around the Sun at 66,000 mph, the Sun circles the Milky Way at like 500 THOUSAND mph, and the Milky Way moves around at 650 MILLION mph. Usually shuts 'em up for a few minutes

 

[ClanOfNone]

Just thinking of the size of 'space' makes my head hurt. So amazing.

The distances involved in interstellar travel are crazy. Light speed won’t cut the mustard, we need some Dune foldspace shit.

 

[jason10mm]

The distances involved in interstellar travel are crazy. Light speed won’t cut the mustard, we need some Dune foldspace shit.

DUNE is your "go to" for FTL? I can't tell if you are super old and pulling a deep cut from the novel or super young and somehow missed Star Wars and Star Trek in favor of the new movie

 

[Eiknarf]

Here’s a little fact:
You would think it would be difficult to fly a space craft “through an asteroid belt”, right?

Wrong

The movies and tv shows of the 1900s would have you believe that you’d be in constant danger of crashing into objects or rocks if you dared to travel through the asteroid belt

Well, the average distance between any two objects or/and rocks in the asteroid belt is 600,000 miles

You could fly through it blindfolded and drunk

 

[Doom85]

 

[dave_d]

But thats what bugs me. if we want to leave the solar system, why do we have to go past neptune? why not just go up?

Gravitation slingshot. Long story short, you steal kinetic energy from the planet to get extra speed on your space craft. If you've had physics they're basically doing a perfectly elastic collision with each planet to get extra speed.

 

[jshackles]

Hate to break it to you but there are FIVE ships in this picture

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Is space flat? Can you UP in space?

I understand that the sun bends the fabric of space which makes all the planets circle around the bend so clearly it has a floor. Floor is bent but its there. But what the hell is up there? If all the solar systems are circling a galaxy which have a massive black hole in the middle then is ALL of it flat? When you go to space do you see stars above and below you?

Is this a tricky question? AFAIK space is a three dimensional plane, expanding in all directions at different speeds + over there the whole physics is probably fucked up anyway so YMMV.

So yes, there is something like up, down, left right in respect to your current position, but we are talking about distances that are physically impossible to be covered (forget even faster-than-light travel, it would still take too long to get anywhere).

 

[Cyberpunkd]

DUNE is your "go to" for FTL? I can't tell if you are super old and pulling a deep cut from the novel or super young and somehow missed Star Wars and Star Trek in favor of the new movie

Not FTL, Dune idea is the correct one - you are not moving (speed is 0), you are folding space to wherever you want to go. Star Wars and all others solutions are BS, given that Milky Way alone is 100 THOUSAND light years in diameter, so even if ship travelled 100 faster than the speed of light it will still take you ONE WHOLE YEAR to go from one edge to the other.

 

[jason10mm]

Not FTL, Dune idea is the correct one - you are not moving (speed is 0), you are folding space to wherever you want to go. Star Wars and all others solutions are BS, given that Milky Way alone is 100 THOUSAND light years in diameter, so even if ship travelled 100 faster than the speed of light it will still take you ONE WHOLE YEAR to go from one edge to the other.

Well AKUSHAWLY D).....I do think folks have fanwanked "Hyperspace" and "warp speed" to be more than just "go really fast" regardless of how sloppy it has been implemented in the movies.

But I get yah, the "fold space" or wormhole methods for travelling faster than light (faster than light could get there, regardless of how you actually do it) are my preferred ways versus each ship can just easily high an afterburner or whatever. Gate waystations as choke points, abandoned portals to be discovered, resource scarcity in powering the fold, all that stuff is more narratively interesting than "we get there at the speed of the plot" lazy writing IMHO.

 

[dave_d]

Is this a tricky question? AFAIK space is a three dimensional plane, expanding in all directions at different speeds + over there the whole physics is probably fucked up anyway so YMMV.

So yes, there is something like up, down, left right in respect to your current position, but we are talking about distances that are physically impossible to be covered (forget even faster-than-light travel, it would still take too long to get anywhere).

Well to bring this sort of back to the Star Trek meme in this topic, it's 4-dimensions.

 

[Rran]

Space is more bendy than Mia Khalifa.

Please respect Mia Khalifa's rebrand.

 

[ÆMNE22A!C]

Flat earth theory just got an upgrade.

Whats your perception on the flat earth hypothesis based on?

IE: "Flat Earth" has a myriad of core perspectives regarding it's general meaning.

Not sure if you're aware of this fwiw.

I'm curious which one of those you jest about =)

If not responded to...ykwyn lmao.

 

[AJUMP23]

And the galaxy moves too! I discovered that fact in a Asimov novel and it blew my mind.

Columbus of the solar system over here discovering that galaxies move.

 

[AJUMP23]

The Universe is also constantly expanding.

 

[ÆMNE22A!C]

Not FTL, Dune idea is the correct one - you are not moving (speed is 0), you are folding space to wherever you want to go. Star Wars and all others solutions are BS, given that Milky Way alone is 100 THOUSAND light years in diameter, so even if ship travelled 100 faster than the speed of light it will still take you ONE WHOLE YEAR to go from one edge to the other.

Sure. From the perspective of what the establishment scientist are aware of at this time & dare to say to keep their jobs.

 

[ÆMNE22A!C]

The Universe is also constantly expanding.

So is our knowledge and consciousness.

 

[Daneel Elijah]

Columbus of the solar system over here discovering that galaxies move.

Hey I was reading that as a kid. Loved it back then.

 

[winjer]

Columbus of the solar system over here discovering that galaxies move.

That is not a good benchmark, considering that Columbus got to America after several waves of people through the Beringia bridge, and after the Vikings, and after the Chinese. And very likely, after the Portuguese had found Brazil.
And he died not even realizing that he had found a new continent. Instead thinking he found another way to Asia.
Worst yet, he didn't really reach the American continent, he just found an Island near the continent.
And he was so dumb, that he called it the west Indies. But even if there was no America, and he had reached Asia, by going west, he would reach the east most part of Asia. So it should be called East Indies.
Columbus has to be one of the worst explorers in human history.