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Police chief, emotional over shooting of child, goes off on hypocrites attacking cops

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As voters, people have a say over how government operates and spends its money . . . this includes the police.

Voters don't have a say over what criminals do. He's right that there are far too many black victims of crime . . . but that doesn't not absolve the police. There is no one supporting the criminals.
 

Kettch

Member
While the protesting is warranted over police shootings that are obviously unjustified, the generalization of ALL police officers (here and in society) is absolutely fucking pathetic.

I wouldn't be alive if not for two local officers in my town. So unlike many people, I'm not about to lump all police into a single group just because some of them do terrible things.

The problem isn't with individual officers. As with any group of people, you're going to have "bad apples". That's expected. The issue here is that they need to be held fully accountable for their actions, like we expect any normal person would be. That's a problem involving the entire system and saying "many officers help and don't kill people!" doesn't have any relevance to that.
 

Siegcram

Member
This guy did the right thing and fired the officer involved in the shooting and these protesters are wasting their time disrupting a hearing and nitpicking at him for answering his phone. If they really cared about the situation they would be petitioning the attorney general for charges instead of showing up at a hearing harassing and shouting down someone who already done what's in his power to do and fired the guy,
So? This thread isn't about whether or not protesting is a sensible use of anyone's time.

That dude is spouting bullshit under the guise of rightful outrage and the fact that his first instinct is to deflect shows that the actual problem the protesters have still goes completely over his head.
 

Enzom21

Member
While the protesting is warranted over police shootings that are obviously unjustified, the generalization of ALL police officers (here and in society) is absolutely fucking pathetic.

I wouldn't be alive if not for two local officers in my town. So unlike many people, I'm not about to lump all police into a single group just because some of them do terrible things.

As for the video, again, protests are warranted, though the officer has every right to defend his position considering he's not the one who shot the guy and he canned the guy who did. What's he supposed to do exactly? He makes a perfectly valid point in saying that we spend too much time focusing our rage at the police when there are gang violence/crime problems that can only be fixed when a community comes together and creates change via local politics (such as funding for better schools, community centers, etc.). I wonder how many of these protesters would vote No on ballot measures designed to reduce crime and help the poor for tax reasons?
So crime can only be stopped be the community? Well the what the fuck are police here for?

And people saying the guy is racist? What in the actual fuck.
He is using the age old "What about black on black crime?!" often used by racists.
 

remist

Member
So? This thread isn't about whether or not protesting is a sensible use of anyone's time.

That dude is spouting bullshit under the guise of rightful outrage and the fact that his first instinct is to deflect shows that the actual problem the protesters have still goes completely over his head.

What is the problem the protesters have with this specific individual and his actions? It's no wonder their problems go over peoples head when they harass someone who did the right thing for once.
 

Piggus

Member
The problem isn't with individual officers. As with any group of people, you're going to have "bad apples". That's expected. The issue here is that they need to be held fully accountable for their actions, like we expect any normal person would be. That's a problem involving the entire system and saying "many officers help and don't kill people!" doesn't have any relevance to that.

I agree completely, but give blame where blame is due. The guy who did the right thing by firing the dickhead who murdered a person despite the ramifications to his careers doesn't deserve to be automatically dismissed or or lumped in with the "bad apples" just because he's a police officer. A LOT of people dismiss what officers say simply because they're police and "police kill innocent people."

So crime can only be stopped be the community? Well the what the fuck are police here for?


He is using the age old "What about black on black crime?!" often used by racists.

Police are there to enforce laws, not take the place of mayors and city council members responsible for the programs that prevent crime in the first place. If a community doesn't give a shit about their city and doesn't elect people willing to spend the money for programs that help the poor and help build up really impoverished areas, you're just going to keep seeing gang-related violence and the inevitable (and very unfortunate) police brutality cases.
 

commedieu

Banned
While the protesting is warranted over police shootings that are obviously unjustified, the generalization of ALL police officers (here and in society) is absolutely fucking pathetic.

I wouldn't be alive if not for two local officers in my town. So unlike many people, I'm not about to lump all police into a single group just because some of them do terrible things.

As for the video, again, protests are warranted, though the officer has every right to defend his position considering he's not the one who shot the guy and he canned the guy who did. What's he supposed to do exactly? He makes a perfectly valid point in saying that we spend too much time focusing our rage at the police when there are gang violence/crime problems that can only be fixed when a community comes together and creates change via local politics (such as funding for better schools, community centers, etc.). I wonder how many of these protesters would No on ballot measures designed to reduce crime and help the poor for tax reasons?

Thank you so much for explaining to the internet what it means to generalize. I'm sure this will be a valuable to post for others.

I also appreciate you knowing exactly how to fix communities that have been ravaged by systematic racism for hundreds of years. Who would have thunk of it! All people need to do to fix their problems, is come together! And that is who is at fault here, The community. For not pulling up their bootstraps and saying to themselves..."We need to fix our problems." I doubt you spend any time focusing on rage at police. I doubt you've been affected by police violence, at all. The community doesn't run their political process. Special interests do. Voting is hijacked by business interests. Police forces aren't responsible to the people that they police, they are responsible to protect themselves from some implied super-threat that people all need to be shot the minute they resist. Unless they are a white man waving a gun around a park filled with people. -- I digress. Yes, voting. VOTING, is what is going to fix this problem. Voting in places where laws have been made to make it harder for certain demographics to actually vote. Because that isn't what is happening in this country at all. (Texas), no, no... no. Its all just people needing to 'come together' and fight a nation wide problem of the justice system, and the police abuse. No, its never the police that need to change their tactics. Its never the police at fault. Nope.

Its the people. Those damned people that keep getting in the way of terrified officers bullets.

Members of Law enforcement, including judges, are member of groups for immediate police reform, as well as cameras, and more accountability of police. Police departments themselves, have seen a reduction in violence as well as better policing. You know why this has happened? Because there is a problem. This isn't a thread lumping in all police to make people sad. It comes up from multiple people, due to multiple people experiencing the same abuse.

I'm just glad that there are members of law enforcement/politicians/military and others, whom are able to note the problem, and have the intellectual integrity to admit there is a better course that will result in less deaths of citizens, and a safer community.

Great post though. It really is impossible to criticize police without someone busting through the doors to fumble over their keyboard to declare that "ITS NOT EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM!!!!!"
 

Dalek

Member
I agree completely, but give blame where blame is due. The guy who did the right thing by firing the dickhead who murdered a person despite the ramifications to his careers doesn't deserve to be automatically dismissed or or lumped in with the "bad apples" just because he's a police officer. A LOT of people dismiss what officers say simply because they're police and "police kill innocent people."

Good luck convincing some people of that. You could post a video of a cop saving a kitten and people would attack him for being anti-dog.
 

Dalek

Member
So do you agree with the shitty headline you used, that the protesters are hypocrites?

To be honest, I didn't have a strong stake in the argument either way-I saw the story and thought it was interesting to post, copied the headline of the first article, went back to copy the text, and thought I should add a bit more content so paged over to another one.

Might want to calm down, though-you're coming off as if you have an axe to grind with anyone who will listen. :)
 

Piggus

Member
Thank you so much for explaining to the internet what it means to generalize. I'm sure this will be a valuable to post for others.

I also appreciate you knowing exactly how to fix communities that have been ravaged by systematic racism for hundreds of years. Who would have thunk of it! All people need to do to fix their problems, is come together! And that is who is at fault here, The community. For not pulling up their bootstraps and saying to themselves..."We need to fix our problems." I doubt you spend any time focusing on rage at police. I doubt you've been affected by police violence, at all. The community doesn't run their political process. Special interests do. Voting is hijacked by business interests. Police forces aren't responsible to the people that they police, they are responsible to protect themselves from some implied super-threat that people all need to be shot the minute they resist. Unless they are a white man waving a gun around a park filled with people. -- I digress. Yes, voting. VOTING, is what is going to fix this problem. Voting in places where laws have been made to make it harder for certain demographics to actually vote. Because that isn't what is happening in this country at all. (Texas), no, no... no. Its all just people needing to 'come together' and fight a nation wide problem of the justice system, and the police abuse. No, its never the police that need to change their tactics. Its never the police at fault. Nope.

Its the people. Those damned people that keep getting in the way of terrified officers bullets.

Members of Law enforcement, including judges, are member of groups for immediate police reform, as well as cameras, and more accountability of police. Police departments themselves, have seen a reduction in violence as well as better policing. You know why this has happened? Because there is a problem. This isn't a thread lumping in all police to make people sad. It comes up from multiple people, due to multiple people experiencing the same abuse.

I'm just glad that there are members of law enforcement/politicians/military and others, whom are able to note the problem, and have the intellectual integrity to admit there is a better course that will result in less deaths of citizens, and a safer community.

Great post though. It really is impossible to criticize police without someone busting through the doors to fumble over their keyboard to declare that "ITS NOT EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM!!!!!"

Apparently it's also impossible to at least TRY to think of something that would help people. My mistake! I wasn't aware that the only solution was to criticize police, whether they committed a crime or not.

If you want to be a dickhead to all police officers that's your choice. But if you think that's going to do anything to prevent crime any more than me suggesting people vote for measures that help their community overcome poverty, then LOL.
 

Kettch

Member
I agree completely, but give blame where blame is due. The guy who did the right thing by firing the dickhead who murdered a person despite the ramifications to his careers doesn't deserve to be automatically dismissed or or lumped in with the "bad apples" just because he's a police officer. A LOT of people dismiss what officers say simply because they're police and "police kill innocent people."

The very captain who fired the guy is still defending him.

The officer, Christopher Manney, did not use excessive force when he shot Hamilton 14 times, Flynn said; rather, the officer did not follow department rules in the moments leading up to the shooting.
 

Siegcram

Member
What is the problem the protesters have with this specific individual and his actions? It's no wonder their problems go over peoples head when they harass someone who did the right thing for once.
They weren't protesting him personally. Nor does what they're doing constitute harassment.

Him "doing the right thing" by firing the officer is hardly worthy of praise. And even then he immediately goes out and says some other stupid shit.

The current problems with the American police force are blatant and it isn't on the public to sort out the good and bad and not so bad cops.
He represents a thoroughly corrupt system and has to deal with everything that entails.
 
The very captain who fired the guy is still defending him.

I think with that bit he's trying to say something in a very by-the-books way to avoid even more criticism from the union.

Which, honestly, the fact that he's getting flack for just firing the guy, and is getting a vote of no confidence, is actually rather telling and alarming to me.

Yes, protocol needs to be revamped (and drilled harder, it seems, as well as more stress management training), but if the guy in charge is essentially NOT ALLOWED to reprimand people in the way they deserve, that seems the bigger issue. Members of the police force will know this, that they are essentially bullet proof in these cases, and wont think about the consequences. They need to.

They also seriously need more of the equivalent training to rules of engagement (obviously not engagement, but escalation management). Force members who do not do well with force management... Need to be re-evaluated.
 

commedieu

Banned
Apparently it's also impossible to at least TRY to think of something that would help people. My mistake! I wasn't aware that the only solution was to criticize police, whether they committed a crime or not.


You can't try to help when you don't understand anything about the problem. The problem isn't the anger that is directed towards the outcome of systemic failures in government as well as voter suppression, and a war on drugs that targets specific classes. The problem sure has nothing to do with you making sure that everyone understands that you were saved by two cops once. So, literally, every single member of the police department couldn't be part of the nation wide problem. And with that information, which is beyond obvious, something ______ can happen? As I said earlier, others understand the issue. And others understand that its not every single instance of example X. Law Enforcement, former law enforcement, and the whole yadda yadda list.

Do you genuinely feel that people aren't aware of this? There is a time for being upset, in america, its been going on for some time now. You don't have to worry about the image of police. Nothing really happens to the systematic issues, and they just continue.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
That has nothing to fucking to do with your cops conduct. Its straight up deflection into an emotional topic to make the people asking questions feel bad.
 

Piggus

Member
You can't try to help when you don't understand anything about the problem. The problem isn't the anger that is directed towards the outcome of systemic failures in government as well as voter suppression, and a war on drugs that targets specific classes. The problem sure has nothing to do with you making sure that everyone understands that you were saved by two cops once. So, literally, every single member of the police department couldn't be part of the nation wide problem. And with that information, which is beyond obvious, something ______ can happen? As I said earlier, others understand the issue. And others understand that its not every single instance of example X. Law Enforcement, former law enforcement, and the whole yadda yadda list.

Do you genuinely feel that people aren't aware of this? There is a time for being upset, in america, its been going on for some time now. You don't have to worry about the image of police. Nothing really happens to the systematic issues, and they just continue.

So what exactly is your solution, then? Because so far the only thing you've really implied with your cynicism is that change is hopeless and we should all be pissed at the police instead of working (even if just in a small way) to reduce crime.

We SHOULD be pissed at the police as an institution. I'm not saying there isn't a corruption issue, because there definitely is. I simply find it frustrating when people place blame on an individual person who hasn't done anything wrong just because they're part of a system where corruption is a big issue. It takes more than just criticism to solve this problem.
 
That has nothing to fucking to do with your cops conduct. Its straight up deflection into an emotional topic to make the people asking questions feel bad.

Yup I get that he's stressed out but its not like there is a criminal institution that has to answer to the public. There is a police one though. Furthermore, just because you're doing your job doesn't mean you're doing a good job. Your work will be scrutinized.

Policing, crime, and the community are all interrelated so I don't know why he's all "blah blah African american blah blah". Crime is everyone's problem.
 
So what exactly is your solution, then? Because so far the only thing you've really implied with your cynicism is that change is hopeless and we should all be pissed at the police instead of working (even if just in a small way) to reduce crime.

Overall crime is down to the lowest points in decades in the US so this point kinda does not make sense.

We SHOULD be pissed at the police as an institution. I'm not saying there isn't a corruption issue, because there definitely is. I simply find it frustrating when people place blame on an individual person who hasn't done anything wrong just because they're part of a system where corruption is a big issue. It takes more than just criticism to solve this problem.


The protestors are not mad at the individual they are mad at the system. The police currently today represent a system where overall crime including violent crime is down to the lowest point in like 20 or 30 years and yet people are still getting put into prison at an alarming rate. Just how bad is the US prison system well the US has the highest prison population in the entire world. The US makes up 5 percent of the worlds population yet has 25 percent of the entire worlds prison population. That is insane for a country that is all about freedom.

Also it is hard to even bring charges against a police officer so hard in fact that they can kill innocent people and literally get away with it as long as they followed procedure. That is why the police chief in this incident fired his officer. Not because he killed a man unnecessarily but, because he did not follow procedure. If the officer had followed procedure and still killed the man I can pretty much guarantee he would still have his job today.
 
Reminds me of conservatives who demand Muslims denounce the actions of terrorists/Islamists.

People can do two things at the same time...and can believe two things at the same time. And when people focus on one issue it doesn't mean they're ignoring another issue. I know for a fact that civil rights groups protest and discuss black crime all the fucking time. It will never be acknowledged by Fox News types because they couldn't give a shit.
 

commedieu

Banned
So what exactly is your solution, then? Because so far the only thing you've really implied with your cynicism is that change is hopeless and we should all be pissed at the police instead of working (even if just in a small way) to reduce crime.

We SHOULD be pissed at the police as an institution. I'm not saying there isn't a corruption issue, because there definitely is. I simply find it frustrating when people place blame on an individual person who hasn't done anything wrong just because they're part of a system where corruption is a big issue. It takes more than just criticism to solve this problem.

The solution is what other leo and former leo are working on, Starts with police accountability. Because there is a gigantic lack of it in America. And continue as far as the political climate will allow. Remove the war on drugs so police don't have to feel like every breath is their last, dealing with cagey potheads growing a plant in their grandmothers basement.

Nothing is hopeless, and admitting that there is a large nation wide problem doesn't make you a chicken little. A working solution you can start today, is to not cry foul due to obvious rules of communication/generalizing on internet forums, and support what other departments have done to reduce their crime, as well as better policing being a by-product. Support the system that sees that there is a clear problem with the system, and the system needs to be fixed, immediately. Not put blame on citizens who are reacting to systematic abuse. That is asinine. I believe it is San Jose, or another PD off the top of my head, that is the model of police camera work. which includes public websites, that should be installed nation wide. And it was severely cheap. Police need cameras on them, as well as accountability. We need to revisit paid vacation in certain circumstances -- but thats my own agenda, no one else is after that.

You take issue with people being labeled. Thats great. But that does nothing to address the problems that you've admitted to earlier. They exist, largely, and for many people their experience is the polar opposite of yours. And now you know its a systemic problem. You admit to it. Frankly, I'd rather be in your shoes. Being miffed and off put at generalizing on an online forum, than being in my shoes, terrified to go to certain neighborhoods because I know, due to labeling, I'll be harassed by the police. Labeling happens in our world. A lot of nonsensical bullshit happens in our world. Labels based on nothing outside of an appearance, versus a systematic failure. Which you've pointed out is the reality.

Now that we know that, we move to fix the issues. Which is addressing the lack of accountability for police officers. This should be the norm, you should be fired when you fuck up. You shouldn't go on vacation, then due to a broken justice system, get off without any punishment for your actions. There is no kudos to be given to what should happen in a just world.

You offering solutions don't mean much when you don't understand that your solutions are nonsense. Understanding the problem is paramount, which others understand, and are pursuing. They aren't assuming all of their fellow officers, retired or otherwise, are the problem when addressing a nation wide problem. They are noting there is a problem, and moving to resolve it. And that is because there is a large problem. It has little next to nothing to do with being upset that someone thinks, some how, that every single officer in america acts a certain way. That every single human being wearing a uniform, acts in an identical way. This does not need to be pointed out when people are complaining about systematic failures, it really doesn't. You can do it all you want, but it just shows that you have no understanding of why people are posting.

If you understand there is a systemic problem, You full well know people aren't referring to every single member of law enforcement.
 

Yoritomo

Member
I'm confused. My understanding is that this police chief is one of the good ones. His actions when holding his officers accountable put him in the crosshairs of the Police Union with an almost unanimous vote of no confidence.

He had an emotional reaction when people were flinging bullshit at him.

Actual change will occur when there is a groundswell large enough to change the perpetual disenfranchisement of the black underclass. This disenfranchisement is enforced by the police but backed by prison building, mandatory minimums, systemic racism in the ENTIRE justice system, and asymmetrically applied laws and sentences that fall hardest on blacks.

The police are the tip of the spear and the most visible offenders, but they're also the ones who die when it goes wrong while legislators, prosecutors, and judges continue on their merry way incarcerating and effectively disenfranchising whole swaths of young black men.

I guess you're all right. We should drum him out of office, I'm sure his replacement will be better.
 
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