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PoliGAF 2017 |OT5| The Man In the High Chair

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D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I'm not really comfortable with the spreading of the rumours that Hicks has been sleeping with Trump. It's easy to call yourself feminist when it's your team, you have to do it for everyone's team. Suggesting that she doesn't have sufficient agency to be evil independently of Trump, or that she couldn't be evil enough to be promoted to that position without sexual beguilement, is pretty belittling.
 
S

Schucky Ducky

Banned
Crab said:
I'm not really comfortable with the spreading of the rumours that Hicks has been sleeping with Trump. It's easy to call yourself feminist when it's your team, you have to do it for everyone's team. Suggesting that she doesn't have sufficient agency to be evil independently of Trump, or that she couldn't be evil enough to be promoted to that position without sexual beguilement, is pretty belittling.
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Yeah I agree. Especially since there doesn't seem to be any real solid evidence behind it.
 
G

Greigor The Fellhand

Member
Crab said:
I'm not really comfortable with the spreading of the rumours that Hicks has been sleeping with Trump. It's easy to call yourself feminist when it's your team, you have to do it for everyone's team. Suggesting that she doesn't have sufficient agency to be evil independently of Trump, or that she couldn't be evil enough to be promoted to that position without sexual beguilement, is pretty belittling.
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I'll alter the post as not to offend, as offense and your take wasn't the aim.

I'm assuming that this rumor was probably being pushed by Bannon and cohorts.
 
T

Teggy

Member
kess said:
This might be keeping an eye on -- a Orthodox community in Mahwah, NJ has been at odds with the zoning commission because they've been erecting PVC eruvs on utility poles. But..



HUH
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I grew up in this area (Monsey) prior to it becoming overwhelmingly orthodox. The orthodox residents took over the school board even though they don't use the school district and have completely gutted the school district budget. Tensions are very high down there and it's not a simple issue.
 
B

Brawly Likes to Brawl

Member
In Ukraine, a Malware Expert Who Could Blow the Whistle on Russian Hacking

KIEV, Ukraine — The hacker, known only by his online alias “Profexer,” kept a low profile. He wrote computer code alone in an apartment and quietly sold his handiwork on the anonymous portion of the internet known as the Dark Web. Last winter, he suddenly went dark entirely.

Profexer’s posts, already accessible only to a small band of fellow hackers and cybercriminals looking for software tips, blinked out in January — just days after American intelligence agencies publicly identified a program he had written as one tool used in the hacking of the Democratic National Committee.

But while Profexer’s online persona vanished, a flesh-and-blood person has emerged: a fearful man who the Ukrainian police said turned himself in early this year, and has now become a witness for the F.B.I.
Click to expand...
 
N

nature boy

Member
DHW60z-WsAEo037.jpg:large
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DAT COURAGE
 
B

BlastProcessing

Member
Teggy said:
When Fox and Friends forgets to tell its guests what to say

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/fox-fri...nd-over-trumps-morally-bankrupt-comments/amp/
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Yeah, that segment might have gotten away from them a bit.

BoogieWoogie said:
"How do we learn from our mistakes if we take these statues down?"

This is why Germany still has swastikas everywhere right?
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It's why America fought so hard to keep those statues of Saddam up in Iraq. It's just the right thing to do.
 
D

dramatis

Member
Valhelm said:
No radical leftists hated Clinton but liked Trump. The only folks who remotely resemble what you're talking about are TYT dipshits on Reddit whose problems with Clinton with emotional and half-formed and often invalid. You suggest that unity is necessary, but for the past ten months prominent Democrats like Neera Tanden and Peter Daou rejected any kind of that cooperation, preferring to coin the phrase the "alt left" and shame our policy concerns and perpetuate a narrative of a "violent Antifa". Not only have people of your political persuasion been an impediment to a united front against Trump and what he stands for, many of your arguments have been picked up verbatim by Republicans who wish to further their own monstrous agenda.
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It's easy to disown the "hated Clinton but liked Trump" Bernie Bro-ers now, isn't it? After the election? After Charlottesville?

How prominent Neera Tanden and Peter Daou as Democrats, that this might possibly be the first mention of them in PoliGAF?

There's a reason I put "radical leftists" in quotes, because after all there are people who call themselves that and think they themselves are the most progressive and purest of everyone ever, and then look down on others for not being as pedestal, no? They hate Hillary and then turn around and gush over Obama and Biden. Same reason I put "centrist neoliberals" in quotes, because after all "neoliberal" as a term is rather meaningless.

I think the people who have been an impediment to a united front have been "your people", since you would like to outline "people of your political persuasion" as at fault then I suppose we have to draw lines. They spread the Russian lies, they perpetuated the false narratives about Hillary, they insisted on having everything their way—including an undemocratic selection of Sanders over Hillary—or no way at all. Sanders called for unity, Sarah Silverman called for unity, but there were plenty of Susan Sarandons and Cornell Wests, that "your people" allowed to continue festering and keep up the division. Immediately after the election "your people" screamed that there was too much focus on race, that it wasn't about race, that white working class was just 'economically anxious', making all manner of excuses for decisions that have manifested this past weekend that "people of my political persuasion" knew was coming.

That's why the question of cooperation has to be posed to the "Sanders left" and not "people of my political persuasion", because the ones who have been most uncooperative have been them. Because the truth is, in raw democracy, Hillary won millions more votes than their side, and Hillary won millions more votes than Trump's side.

Before you critique the knowledge of others, stop making references to people that nobody know as prominent Democrats. In the end, Sanders was the one who opened his mouth about how the process was rigged, but Schumer, Pelosi, Reid, Obama, Hillary, those prominent Democrats on the opposite side, never once called them "alt-left" or "antifa".
 
B

BlastProcessing

Member
Greigor The Fellhand said:
been bouncing around twitter and sketch sites since she got appointed as a white house staffer at 179K. I'll try to find the earliest mention of it, might be a bit.
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I think those rumors are some sexist shit. Since the beginning of the campaign, Hicks has had an insane workload. She was basically the campaigns entire comms team. She got the Comms job because she is one of the few people inside Trump's circle who has actually worked their asses off.
 
V

VendettaRed07

Member
Longer Trump is in power the more difficult it is going to be for other Republicans to say even lame, typical statements opposing the KKK and Nazis. It's really made me uncomfortable how much Romney and others have been shredded by conservatives for their "no shit Nazis are bad" statements.
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
Peter Daou was one of Hillary's highest campaign advisors. Neera Tanden helped Bill Clinton with welfare reform and was a policy director for Obama and Hillary. Now, she's president of the Center for American progress. They're some of the most influential Capitol Hill types who don't hold elected office, and they're both very active on twitter, where they irresponsibly devote all of their energy to attacks on the farther left while simultaneously complaining that leftists aren't adequately resisting Trump.

Elected politicians like Schumer and Pelosi are wise enough to not reject cooperation with the left so openly, but non-elected influencers like Daou are not. All over the liberal twittersphere you can find verified journalists and staffers who made the same arguments about a violent alt-left that Trump does now. If more level-headed members of the Democratic core can't quiet down aggressors like Sady Doyle and Josh Marshall, no meaningful cooperation is possible.

Many Democrats think that leftists inhibit resistance against Trump, despite all evidence to the contrary, and don't seek cooperation. Democrats who understand that cooperation is necessary will need to moderate those within their ranks who disagree.
 
A

aspiegamer

Member
Yup, here comes the unrelated pivot to Chicago, in a speech not even given in Chicago.

Unrelated, but every person on the planet needs to see that Vice footage of the torch rally. Christ. 2017, people. United States.
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
VendettaRed07 said:
Longer Trump is in power the more difficult it is going to be for other Republicans to say even lame, typical statements opposing the KKK and Nazis. It's really made me uncomfortable how much Romney and others have been shredded by conservatives for their "no shit Nazis are bad" statements.
Click to expand...

At first I thought the Trump election was just a blip--one last rush of oxygen for the dying embers that represented the far right, racists before finally dying out.

Now I think the "establishment" portion of the party is actually dying out and these once dying embers are now moving toward a full-fledged bonfire.
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
pigeon said:
Man you guys are mean to new PoliGAF posters!
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Eh, if your only interaction with PoliGAF is to post This Thing I Found That Says Democrats Are Doomed! or Oh Boy Democrats Are Doomed!, why? I don't care if you actually can post stuff that Dems are doomed based on real data -- we need less cherry picking on here for SURE which is why I think that Monmouth poll is important -- but I don't think we should be someone's therapist. Or they're concern trolling and it's even more annoying.
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
Leftists don't like Biden btw, this is a disingenuous narrative created to invalidate people's concerns with Clinton. When somebody hates Hillary but loves a man who's plainly more conservative, the implications are clearly problematic. But these people don't exist. Nobody hates Hillary and loves Biden.

If you can stomach a glance at PoliticalRevolution, probably the most regressive and misguided Bernie community on the internet, you can see that they don't love Biden at all. If guys who watch TYT and think Bernie secretly won the CA primary do not like Biden, then who does?
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
Valhelm said:
Leftists don't like Biden btw, this is a disingenuous narrative created to invalidate people's concerns with Clinton. When somebody hates Hillary but loves a man who's plainly more conservative, the implications are clearly problematic. But these people don't exist. Nobody hates Hillary and loves Biden.

If you can stomach a glance at PoliticalRevolution, probably the most regressive and misguided Bernie community on the internet, you can see that they don't love Biden at all. If guys who watch TYT and think Bernie secretly won the CA primary do not like Biden, then who does?
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To be fair, not all Bernie fans are Leftists and this is a bit of a No True Scotsman. I've certainly seen in the OT people pine for Biden who were Bernie fans and lamenting that's Biden didn't run.

There's a contingency of Bernie suppporters in the primary - not the Ann Arbor Bernie supporters, but the rural and exurban Michigan Bernie supporters that drove him to a surprise victory in the state that probably have high crossover appeal with a Biden.

Do Leftists like Biden? On the whole, no. But while mostly all Leftists are Bernie supporters, not all Bernie supporters are Leftists.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
whyamihere said:
To be fair, not all Bernie fans are Leftists and this is a bit of a No True Scotsman. I've certainly seen in the OT people pine for Biden who were Bernie fans and lamenting that's Biden didn't run.

There's a contingency of Bernie suppporters in the primary - not the Ann Arbor Bernie supporters, but the rural and exurban Michigan Bernie supporters that drove him to a surprise victory in the state that probably have high crossover appeal with a Biden.

Do Leftists like Biden? On the whole, no. But while mostly all Leftists are Bernie supporters, not all Bernie supporters are Leftists.
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I can agree with this. But the conversation started with a discussion of the radical left, which makes dramatis rather disingenuous. Radical leftists tended to support Sanders over Clinton, rural anti-system voters tended to support Sanders over Clinton, but that doesn't mean radical leftists are one and the same as rural anti-system voters, and when the primary assumption your argument rests on is that they are, then you're making a stupid argument.

I mean, Steven Mnuchin supported Clinton over Sanders, but I'm not going to bother doing this thread the disservice of implicating you're all capitalist fraudsters.

Just capitalists.
 
T

Tall4Life

Member
Biden is a white male and would've shouted about how class struggle is the most important problem in America so I think he would've been fine
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
whyamihere said:
To be fair, not all Bernie fans are Leftists and this is a bit of a No True Scotsman. I've certainly seen in the OT people pine for Biden who were Bernie fans and lamenting that's Biden didn't run.

There's a contingency of Bernie suppporters in the primary - not the Ann Arbor Bernie supporters, but the rural and exurban Michigan Bernie supporters that drove him to a surprise victory in the state that probably have high crossover appeal with a Biden.

Do Leftists like Biden? On the whole, no. But while mostly all Leftists are Bernie supporters, not all Bernie supporters are Leftists.
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Oh yeah totally! A lot of people who voted for Bernie (or Hillary, or Obama) were not great people. The biggest problems within the Bernie camp were the college bros -- a group, though highly exaggerated, did exist -- and the older blue collar white guys. This second group voted for Bernie in higher numbers than for Hillary, and some of them definitely voted for Trump. If we're just looking a this demographic, then yeah. Some people would have voted for Biden over Hillary if given the chance, because he's a man and more conservative on issues like abortion. But these guys aren't "the left". Even if you include 55-year-old factory workers in the same coalition as Ellison and the DSA because of some shared economic interests, they probably don't view themselves as progressives.

Dramatis suggests that the left, probably meaning everybody who thought Hillary was too conservative in some way or another, was some kind of secret Biden fan. And Dramatis is probably implying that the misgivings of leftists (even the millions who are black or brown or female) are rooted in patriarchy, not policy. This narrative is bullshit and baseless and dangerous as well -- cause if Democrats continue to pretend that Hillary's policies were perfect, the disasters of 2016 are going to be replicated in every future election.
 
W

Wilsongt

Member
You know, false equivalency and all but the right sure loves it...

If confederates love losers so much, why don't we erect statues of British generals and soldiers from the Revolutionary War and George III statues everywhere.

Unless they already exist.

You know. British heritage, history, but mah ancestors, etc.
 
V

VendettaRed07

Member
Plinko said:
At first I thought the Trump election was just a blip--one last rush of oxygen for the dying embers that represented the far right, racists before finally dying out.

Now I think the "establishment" portion of the party is actually dying out and these once dying embers are now moving toward a full-fledged bonfire.
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Basically how I feel.

I know people like to imagine some sort of great course correction and that once Trump does eventually leave office the GOP will go back and nominate a Kasich like Republican. I just don't know if I see that happening now. He's really dragged the party so off base in just two years. The tea party did a lot of work but Trump has deligitimized the media and our political institutions to the point where it's going to be impossible for even well balanced republicans to ignore how loud and demanding their base is going to get

Like imagine all the letters and calls the GOP was getting from people over healthcare. They are likely getting the same thing now calling them traitors and POS for bending to the liberal media narrative and not backing Trump.

Getting Trump out of the White House isn't going to solve anything. We need to fix the vehicle that made it possible for him to get there or else they'll just drive someone else there too
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
whyamihere said:
To be fair, not all Bernie fans are Leftists and this is a bit of a No True Scotsman. I've certainly seen in the OT people pine for Biden who were Bernie fans and lamenting that's Biden didn't run.

There's a contingency of Bernie suppporters in the primary - not the Ann Arbor Bernie supporters, but the rural and exurban Michigan Bernie supporters that drove him to a surprise victory in the state that probably have high crossover appeal with a Biden.

Do Leftists like Biden? On the whole, no. But while mostly all Leftists are Bernie supporters, not all Bernie supporters are Leftists.
Click to expand...
Yes,

This is the most frustrating things.

There's a large subset of bernie supporters who are not "leftists" but rather people who didn't like clinton for whatever reason, be it sexism, legitimize differences, whatever. This is where "BernieBros" might exist. These are the people who were, after the election, preaching getting rid of "identity politics" and who like biden. There are some in this group who might have gone bernie -> trump because their attraction to bernie wasn't because he was "further left" or "more liberal" than clinton

But they are distinct from Leftists, who were the people shitting on Obama his whole term for the bad things he did, Drones, not going after wall street, not pushing single payer. These people have never abandoned "identity politics," antiracism, prochoice planks. They'd hate biden. These are the DSA, Anti-War, people who have always been around.
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
Valhelm said:
Oh yeah totally! A lot of people who voted for Bernie (or Hillary, or Obama) were not great people. The biggest problems within the Bernie camp were the college bros -- a group, though highly exaggerated, did exist -- and the older blue collar white guys. This second group voted for Bernie in higher numbers than for Hillary, and some of them definitely voted for Trump. If we're just looking a this demographic, then yeah. Some people would have voted for Biden over Hillary if given the chance, because he's a man and more conservative on issues like abortion. But these guys aren't "the left". Even if you include 55-year-old factory workers in the same coalition as Ellison and the DSA because of some shared economic interests, they probably don't view themselves as progressives.

Dramatis suggests that the left, probably meaning everybody who thought Hillary was too conservative in some way or another, was some kind of secret Biden fan. And Dramatis is probably implying that the misgivings of leftists (even the millions who are black or brown or female) are rooted in patriarchy, not policy. This narrative is bullshit and baseless and dangerous as well -- cause if Democrats continue to pretend that Hillary's policies were perfect, the disasters of 2016 are going to be replicated in every future election.
Click to expand...

To be fair, I didn't read what you were responding to because I'm stupid. But yes, this is largely right.

Anyways, 3 way Michigan primary race: Bernie, Biden, Hillary. Who wins?
 
V

Vixdean

Member
Dramatis suggests that the left, probably meaning everybody who thought Hillary was too conservative in some way or another, was some kind of secret Biden fan. And Dramatis is probably implying that the misgivings of leftists (even the millions who are black or brown or female) are rooted in patriarchy, not policy. This narrative is bullshit and baseless and dangerous as well -- cause if Democrats continue to pretend that Hillary's policies were perfect, the disasters of 2016 are going to be replicated in every future election.
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I don't think a single Democrat thought Hillary's policies were perfect. What we did think is that debating marginal tax rates or the best method of paying for UHC was better than spilling blood to repel Nazis from our streets. You were warned what would happen if Trump won, and many on the left still thought it was worth the risk for their "principles".
 
P

PBY

Banned
Vixdean said:
I don't think a single Democrat thought Hillary's policies were perfect. What we did think is that debating marginal tax rates or the best method of paying for UHC was better than spilling blood to repel Nazis from our streets. You were warned what would happen if Trump won, and many on the left still thought it worth the risk for their "principles".
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No one on the left thought that.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
Vixdean said:
I don't think a single Democrat thought Hillary's policies were perfect. What we did think is that debating marginal tax rates or the best method of paying for UHC was better than spilling blood to repel Nazis from our streets. You were warned what would happen if Trump won, and many on the left still thought it was worth the risk for their "principles".
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Leftists largely voted for clinton. They were not blind to trump. In fact one of their arguments, be it true or not was that they saw bernie as the better choice for beating trump because he didn't have Clinton's liabilities (whatever you think of the merits of argument, its not a "we care more about principles than trump" vote)

Again your talking about the bros. Not the leftists.
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
yeah, in large part, the vast majority of Bernie primary supporters voted for Hillary. That's just not a large number of people since so few vote in a primary versus a general.

It wasn't really the Ann Arbor or Madison Bernie supporters that decided the election IMO.
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
Tall4Life said:
Biden is a white male and would've shouted about how class struggle is the most important problem in America so I think he would've been fine
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whaaat?

Joe Biden is a Democrat like any other, pretty clearly to the right of Kamala Harris and anybody on the Bernie side. His record on class issues is pretty standard for a centrist Dem, blending welfare reform and complaints about handouts with some meaningful efforts to protect the economic interests of lower-income people from the GOP.

His alleged everyman appeal wasn't about his politics, but how he was an "aw, shucks" white guy who seemed more relatable than most Washington stiffs. This is what the Onion spent 8 years parodying.

I don't see why you would make this argument unless you were trying to suggest that class advocacy must come at the expensive of social justice.
 
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