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PoliGAF 2017 |OT5| The Man In the High Chair

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I'd be shocked if Russia didn't in some way astroturf anti-Clinton propaganda and spread fake news around the big Sanders circles like Reddit (and it worked really well!), but it would be the weirdest twist ever to find that Sanders himself was ever involved. There's no evidence. Hell, no evidence of there being evidence of there being evidence. I'd dismiss it entirely if it weren't for the fact that I learned long ago to never dismiss anything from 2016, but there's no reason to think that's true. At all.

Other than the context of trying to screw with Clinton's reputation, was Sanders' name in any of the leaked intel or any of the congressional testimony? In any form? Not that I can remember, which makes that Twitter rant even weirder.

Stein, though? Totally. I'll also use any excuse possible to use new derogatory terms for Stein voters, so calling them gullible Russian puppets makes me feel better about myself as I attempt to quell my homicidal rage against them.
I'm actually a pacifist.
 

pigeon

Banned
Look up ordoliberalism, knock yourself out.

Oh, the thing Germany's been doing. I guess it's been working well for them?

I mean, I'm not convinced that they have enough welfare to loosen labor market protections the way they have, and also the part where they take advantage of their broken currency union to pillage the rest of Europe is probably not scalable. We tried that in California and they just made us give the money back in transfer payments.

But with a lot more economic justice it seems pretty plausible.
 
Oh, the thing Germany's been doing. I guess it's been working well for them?
Brandt Accepts Resignation of Schiller https://nyti.ms/1MNKVg5

Germany did the ordoliberalism stuff and caused a debt crisis for themselves in the early 70s which led to the economics minister resigning. Only supply side economics in the very late 80s saved them. And then they got swamped by reunification again.
 

pigeon

Banned
So thinking tonight about the failure of the American system.

I think I started talking about the ongoing constitutional crisis back in like 2014 or so -- as it became clear that the Republicans in Congress were simply unwilling to act appropriately when it came to governance, and thus that basic government work wasn't getting done, more and more power got de facto ceded to Obama, and thus to the White House. A good example is the time they passed a bill that let Obama raise the debt ceiling on his own a few times but allowed Congress to vote against it without actually stopping him. Ironically, this was actually an improvement over the current policy -- but mainly because Congress knew that they had to raise the debt ceiling but were unwilling to face the political consequences of taking the vote.

My concern at the time was that it's probably not good for the country if legislative power just wanes at the expense of executive power, because eventually a less competent executive might get in. This turned out to be apt...but also exactly wrong,

In practice, Trump is providing great evidence for the Neustadt model of the presidency, in which the president is basically just a project manager and must persuade people to come together on policies since he has more or less no power to compel. It's worth really considering the fact that Trump issued an order banning transgender people from the American armed forces and it was completely ignored. The president pretty clearly has the constitutional power to do this thing! But because his order was unpopular policy, serving no clear American interest, and he himself was extremely unpopular and untrusted, the armed forces more or less just pretended it didn't happen and even explicitly pushed back against it. It may still take place in the future, but given that the Secretary of Defense himself doesn't want to do it, it seems most likely that this order will simply be forgotten. This should serve as a clear sign of just how little presidential power Trump wields right now.*

So my fear was somewhat wrong -- when the executive became less competent than the legislature, the pendulum just swung back, disempowering the executive. But it's still really bad for either to be weak and incapable of governing, and right now they both are, and there's a lot of governing power that in practice is being wielded by nobody. Even apart from the whole being a Nazi thing, this is paralyzing for American power.

It's also clear that I failed to reckon with the depth and importance of the rot facing the Republicans. Josh Barro wrote an excellent article today on the collapse of the Republican Party -- basically, it's W's fault. He implemented all the ideas of the Republican Party, they were all basically terrible, but the GOP never managed to come up with any new ideas or come to terms with W's failure at all, and it left a vacuum that was filled with Nazis.**

Of course, we've been discussing the internal collapse of the Republican Party for a while -- since 2012, at least. But what I didn't quite grasp at the time was that, in our two-party democracy, both parties are actually structural components of the governing structure, because both parties retain strong potential access to the levers of power, so if the Republican Party is rotten, the American government is too. Essentially, a party's ability to get elected in America is significantly independent from its ability to manage itself and promote competent candidates.

That's kind of an unbelievable sentence, but I think it's basically true. Unfortunately, it's also kind of a vast indictment of the American system! Our democracy pretty much just doesn't work any more. We have a decent chance every year of electing a total incompetent, and it won't ever stop until we get a functional opposition party. And I don't want the one we have to become functional again because it's full of Nazis now and needs to be thrown out. And even if we do get one, we clearly have no way to guarantee it stays that way. The two-party system is much, much worse -- for America and for the world -- than I had ever previously understood.


* https://www.bloomberg.com/view/arti...960-book-that-explains-why-trump-is-a-failure
** http://www.businessinsider.com/repu...thical-obligation-to-quit-trumps-party-2017-8
 
I'd like to apologize for making a Fate/Grand Order joke in the press conference OT and sullying that thread. No one is going to get it there, or here. Basically, the entire concept of that IP is that historical figures of great importance reappear at some intervals to do battle for the Holy Grail. It's actually a pretty cool concept! Trivia: It started as porn.

So, uh, with how random the names of historical persons Trump PR and Tucker Carlson have used in the past few days for a "same as Washington" I figure they might as well literally pull names from the RNG in a mobile game stacked with desirable persons to come up with a suitable list of crummy comparisons of "exactly the same as" Washington/Lee/Jefferson/Jackson.

Fake edit: PBS has Trump at 35%. Only 27% say his response to Charlottesville was sufficient. We've reached the crazification factor, people.
 
I'd like to apologize for making a Fate/Grand Order joke in the press conference OT and sullying that thread. No one is going to get it there, or here. Basically, the entire concept of that IP is that historical figures of great importance reappear at some intervals to do battle for the Holy Grail. It's actually a pretty cool concept! Trivia: It started as porn.

So, uh, with how random the names of historical persons Trump PR and Tucker Carlson have used in the past few days for a "same as Washington" I figure they might as well literally pull names from the RNG in a mobile game stacked with desirable persons to come up with a suitable list of crummy comparisons of "exactly the same as" Washington/Lee/Jefferson/Jackson.

Fake edit: PBS has Trump at 35%. Only 27% say his response to Charlottesville was sufficient. We've reached the crazification factor, people.

So 27% is the floor.
 
So 27% is the floor.
Not automatically, but in terms of the "science" end of political science, that's the theory, yes. W managed to get to 25%, but that's still within margin of error of it.

It is challenging to find controversial topics that can bust the crazification factor in disapproval. Mandatory gun purchase background checks happen to be one of those things, btw, which shows that it's not actually remotely controversial to anyone other than the NRA.
Technically all we know are that 27% are fine with the President being a Nazi.

He could still lose them if he advocated raising taxes or something.
W was a war criminal who killed the global economy and still stayed close to it. It's haaaaaaaaard to go lower than that.
 

CCS

Banned
Monmouth found that 25% of people couldn't imagine anything that Trump could do to make them disapprove of him. Obviously asking a question like that isn't necessarily going to get a perfect answer, but it adds to the suspicion that 25-27% is his absolute floor.
 

chadskin

Member
DHbTYaeUMAQAHmU.jpg
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Do you understand my point about primaries now, pigeon? It is fundamentally wrong to argue that primaries ought to be closed because parties are private institutions and have a right to self-regulate. They're not private institutions, they're de facto organs of government, and accordingly the franchise should be universal.
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
Well if he wasn't busy sucking his own cock, he would have known. - The Mooch

I'd say that about does it for Bannon but then I'm still blown away that Sessions is still there after Trumps attacks. So we'll see...
The reporter should have asked "is it true? What the mooch said? can you, you know.... ?"

Edit:
Sugar your own churro
play your own flute
bob for your own apple
 

jtb

Banned
But that's not entirely the case. The ACA repeal was hampered by Murkowski not budging. She might have budged had Trump not opened his mouth.

Especially McCain. These GOP senators care more about their fragile egos and images than policy, even when the policy in question is cutting taxes for the rich
 

Ithil

Member
Yup, him sending that stooge to try to push her around made him an enemy for life

I feel like McCain handled stuff the way he did to cause maximum damage as well

McCain has a lot of spite in him. I recall only a few months ago he deliberately tanked a vote to repeal Obama-era methane regulations simply because he was pissed off at John Cornyn.

I don't know if you can call it "moral" but it impedes the GOP when he's feeling spiteful so I'll take it.
 
Especially McCain. These GOP senators care more about their fragile egos and images than policy, even when the policy in question is cutting taxes for the rich

I think for McCain it was him finally getting fed up with how poorly McConnell was handling the entire thing. Rushing the legislation, not doing the proper debates and then making the asinine plan to pass a bill nobody wanted and pray Paul Ryan wouldn't make it law. That isn't how the Senate is supposed to work, and McCain seems to have had enough of the games.

And also he wants to cement his legacy as a "maverick" before he dies.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I'd be shocked if Russia didn't in some way astroturf anti-Clinton propaganda and spread fake news around the big Sanders circles like Reddit (and it worked really well!), but it would be the weirdest twist ever to find that Sanders himself was ever involved. There's no evidence. Hell, no evidence of there being evidence of there being evidence. I'd dismiss it entirely if it weren't for the fact that I learned long ago to never dismiss anything from 2016, but there's no reason to think that's true. At all.

Other than the context of trying to screw with Clinton's reputation, was Sanders' name in any of the leaked intel or any of the congressional testimony? In any form? Not that I can remember, which makes that Twitter rant even weirder.

Stein, though? Totally. I'll also use any excuse possible to use new derogatory terms for Stein voters, so calling them gullible Russian puppets makes me feel better about myself as I attempt to quell my homicidal rage against them.
I'm actually a pacifist.
Yeah actual Sanders involvement is whacko land but they definitely took advantage of tensions
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
So thinking tonight about the failure of the American system.

I think I started talking about the ongoing constitutional crisis back in like 2014 or so -- as it became clear that the Republicans in Congress were simply unwilling to act appropriately when it came to governance, and thus that basic government work wasn't getting done, more and more power got de facto ceded to Obama, and thus to the White House. A good example is the time they passed a bill that let Obama raise the debt ceiling on his own a few times but allowed Congress to vote against it without actually stopping him. Ironically, this was actually an improvement over the current policy -- but mainly because Congress knew that they had to raise the debt ceiling but were unwilling to face the political consequences of taking the vote.

My concern at the time was that it's probably not good for the country if legislative power just wanes at the expense of executive power, because eventually a less competent executive might get in. This turned out to be apt...but also exactly wrong,

In practice, Trump is providing great evidence for the Neustadt model of the presidency, in which the president is basically just a project manager and must persuade people to come together on policies since he has more or less no power to compel. It's worth really considering the fact that Trump issued an order banning transgender people from the American armed forces and it was completely ignored. The president pretty clearly has the constitutional power to do this thing! But because his order was unpopular policy, serving no clear American interest, and he himself was extremely unpopular and untrusted, the armed forces more or less just pretended it didn't happen and even explicitly pushed back against it. It may still take place in the future, but given that the Secretary of Defense himself doesn't want to do it, it seems most likely that this order will simply be forgotten. This should serve as a clear sign of just how little presidential power Trump wields right now.*

So my fear was somewhat wrong -- when the executive became less competent than the legislature, the pendulum just swung back, disempowering the executive. But it's still really bad for either to be weak and incapable of governing, and right now they both are, and there's a lot of governing power that in practice is being wielded by nobody. Even apart from the whole being a Nazi thing, this is paralyzing for American power.

It's also clear that I failed to reckon with the depth and importance of the rot facing the Republicans. Josh Barro wrote an excellent article today on the collapse of the Republican Party -- basically, it's W's fault. He implemented all the ideas of the Republican Party, they were all basically terrible, but the GOP never managed to come up with any new ideas or come to terms with W's failure at all, and it left a vacuum that was filled with Nazis.**

Of course, we've been discussing the internal collapse of the Republican Party for a while -- since 2012, at least. But what I didn't quite grasp at the time was that, in our two-party democracy, both parties are actually structural components of the governing structure, because both parties retain strong potential access to the levers of power, so if the Republican Party is rotten, the American government is too. Essentially, a party's ability to get elected in America is significantly independent from its ability to manage itself and promote competent candidates.

That's kind of an unbelievable sentence, but I think it's basically true. Unfortunately, it's also kind of a vast indictment of the American system! Our democracy pretty much just doesn't work any more. We have a decent chance every year of electing a total incompetent, and it won't ever stop until we get a functional opposition party. And I don't want the one we have to become functional again because it's full of Nazis now and needs to be thrown out. And even if we do get one, we clearly have no way to guarantee it stays that way. The two-party system is much, much worse -- for America and for the world -- than I had ever previously understood.


* https://www.bloomberg.com/view/arti...960-book-that-explains-why-trump-is-a-failure
** http://www.businessinsider.com/repu...thical-obligation-to-quit-trumps-party-2017-8
Well said. Also the Barro piece is very good
 
So I'm being introduced to a conspiracy theory that Bernie Sanders was being paid by Russia to help elect Donald Trump.

... Is this actually a thing? First I've ever heard someone mention that insanity.
I have heard some variation on that. I think it's an idea circulating among the Louise Mensch/Claude Taylor set.

Certainly Russia tried to drive a wedge between Clinton and Sanders supporters, but yeah there's not even a shred of evidence of Sanders working for Russia, and his actions make no sense in context of this particular conspiracy theory.
 

Blader

Member
Of course, we've been discussing the internal collapse of the Republican Party for a while -- since 2012, at least. But what I didn't quite grasp at the time was that, in our two-party democracy, both parties are actually structural components of the governing structure, because both parties retain strong potential access to the levers of power, so if the Republican Party is rotten, the American government is too. Essentially, a party's ability to get elected in America is significantly independent from its ability to manage itself and promote competent candidates.

Yeah, I think this is a pretty significant point. Most people assumed that as the Republican Party became worse, its electability -- at least at the presidential level -- would continue to suffer. When actually what has happened is that the GOP is basically no more or less electable at the presidential level than it was literally one president ago, but is now just producing worse and worse people to become president.
 

PBY

Banned
I have heard some variation on that. I think it's an idea circulating among the Louise Mensch/Claude Taylor set.

Certainly Russia tried to drive a wedge between Clinton and Sanders supporters, but yeah there's not even a shred of evidence of Sanders working for Russia, and his actions make no sense in context of this particular conspiracy theory.
It's a sally allbright bit and it's dumb af
 

Kusagari

Member

67% is really bad considering how cult like the GOP base has been in supporting him.

Edit: Also 34% overall approve of the response, 35% think he assigned blame correctly. 34-35% is the magic number truly. Hard to see these people ever abandoning him unless they start dying.
 
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