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[APF]

Second, it was apparently the mole's idea to kill the jews.

Where did you get that from? Seriously, I didn't read it in the links above.

 

[speculawyer]

Liz Cheney and Lawrence O'Donnell Square Off On Torture

<3 Lawrence . . . he takes no shit.

 

[Karma Kramer]

But does this help prevent that? I guess they goal is to make it a political circus so that any prosecution would be viewed as purely political and not legal. (Of course a lie under oath about a blow job was such a real import legal matter and not a political circus. )

And they are also polluting the entire possible jury pool.

I don't know why they are putting themselves out there so much... clearly with the fact that Pelosi pulled back her attempts to start an investigation means something is going on under the table imo.

Its up to journalist now to continue pushing this and get the Dems/Obama in favor of prosecution.

People need to see all the facts through the court system, so they can understand that torture/waterboarding is wrong and it was used carelessly by Bush/Cheney not for the safety of this country, but for political purposes. It would do tremendous harm to the GOP.

 

[Macam]

I live the wall around Austin. :lol We'll need to do the 'Austin air-lift'.

All that's missing are all the pirates along the Texas coast.

 

[mckmas8808]

:lol

Its still against the constitution dude... just because the Government makes laws to make it okay, doesn't mean its fucking right.

"Hey everybody! Government passed a law that says they get to lock up anyone they want without a trial! That makes it a-okay with me!"

They didn't say they would never have a trial. You said that.

 

[Killthee]

Congressman: White House LGBT Announcements Imminent
by Kerry Eleveld

California representative Howard Berman predicted in an interview Thursday that the White House would be presenting new information regarding LGBT policies sometime before annual pride celebrations in June.

“I think the White House is preparing to make an announcement on a number of issues,” he said, declining to go into detail. “I’m predicting here, not informing, that by the Stonewall anniversary we will have a very clear picture of what the administration is doing.”

Congressman Berman, who chairs the House Foreign Affairs Committee, foreshadowed the announcements during an interview about the Foreign Affairs authorization bill that passed out of his committee Wednesday and will provide new diplomatic and development resources for the State Department.

While the bill included many positive provisions to help address LGBT issues abroad, one section that was struck from the legislation would have ended the practice of excluding domestic partners of foreign service officers from benefits routinely provided to spouses and children, such as access to emergency evacuation support, training and language classes, health care and regional medical units, employment opportunities, consulate services, and visa and relocation support.

Berman said he agreed to remove that section of the bill based on his understanding that both the Obama administration and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton were committed to equalizing treatment for same-sex partners in the very near future. He suggested that declaration might be part of a greater package of policy pronouncements from the White House.

“My expectation with respect to the issues that were originally part of my bill, is that the State Department and the secretary will provide the kinds of benefits that I sought,” he said, adding that he was committed to ending discrimination against gay and lesbian foreign service officers. “If I’m wrong, which I don’t think I am, we still have a ways to go on this bill and we can reverse course.”

Berman referenced a quote from Michael Guest, a gay ambassador who finally resigned in 2007 over the State Department’s discriminatory practices, in which Guest said, “Under current practices, we’re kinder to family pets of foreign service officers than we are to gay partners.” That’s true, Berman said, noting that the country pays for the transportation costs of pets to and from foreign posts and provides evacuation services for pets.

What did make the bill were a series of policies that will empower the State Department to: track violence and discrimination against LGBT people that would be deemed illegal in the United States; encourage and persuade governments of other countries to repeal or reform any laws that criminalize homosexuality or restrict fundamental freedoms of gay individuals or organizations; include in annual human rights reports documentation of violence or discrimination against people based on their perceived sexual orientation or gender identity.

Representative Berman said some Republican congressmen like Chris Smith and Mike Pence opposed those inclusions in the bill.

“They were torn and conflicted, almost anguished in the debate,” said Berman, “because I don’t think they can or do justify violence against people because of their sexual orientation and I think they no longer seek to defend criminalization of homosexual conduct…. And yet, [those protections are] what they sought to eliminate with their amendments.”

Berman said he was hopeful the bill would reach the House floor for consideration by early June.
​

 

[Karma Kramer]

They didn't say they would never have a trial. You said that.

If they don't have evidence to charge them with anything, then they should be let go or... according to you now... kept indefinitely...

It is against the law.

 

[besada]

Hey, I'm all for it too.

And in 20 years, the majority in the Nation of Texas will be voting to rejoin Mexico. :lol

You're delusional if you think the majority of Hispanics in Texas want to be part of Mexico. There's a reason they left, ya know.

 

[Zamorro]

Guantanamo - To close it? To close it not? - RNC Daisy Ad

Wow.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I think most people are actually waiting for the actual policy to sift through as opposed to basing an entire political argument on a phrase in a speech before commenting. I know it's weird and all.

Yeah, that's what I was saying earlier about waiting to see how it's actually used. I do think that if he employs the detention option, it will fall in the courts. I suspect Obama knows that too. So I'm still holding out the hope that they'll use it as a last resort, and manage to deal with everyone without employing it.

Though Obama has been pretty keen to preface his actions with policy speeches and other signals so far.

But to keep things in perspective, buried in this bit of bad policy was a whole shitton of good policy got done this week.

[X]Reversal of Bush's preemption of states
[X]Credit card reform gets passed, signed into law
[X]Weapons procurement gets overhaul
[X]New mileage and emissions standards set, with industry, labor, environmental and state approval
[X]Signed additional mortgage fraud protections into law

Not a bad week overall.

 

[speculawyer]

Guantanamo - To close it? To close it not? - RNC Daisy Ad

WTF is wrong with these people? Do they think these terrorists are super-villians? They are just evil men . . . but they have no special powers. You think that fat-ass KSM is a threat in a prison cell. People are such cowards.

 

[PantherLotus]

Yeah, that's what I was saying earlier about waiting to see how it's actually used. I do think that if he employs the detention option, it will fall in the courts. I suspect Obama knows that too. So I'm still holding out the hope that they'll use it as a last resort, and manage to deal with everyone without employing it.

Though Obama has been pretty keen to preface his actions with policy speeches and other signals so far.

But to keep things in perspective, buried in this bit of bad policy was a whole shitton of good policy got done this week.

• Reversal of Bush's preemption of states
• Credit card reform gets passed, signed into law
• Weapons procurement gets overhaul
• New mileage and emissions standards set, with industry, labor, environmental and state approval
• Signed additional mortgage fraud protections into law

ooooooooooohhhh put that in a checklist and i'll add it to the OP.



Does anybody have a bullet point list of things he's accomplished while in office?

 

[mckmas8808]

Yeah, I don't mean to be such an ass to people here, but hearing Obama say those things yesterday really really shocked me. I am just surprised more people here aren't upset, with some even defending this move!

You also need to realize that not everybody will agree with everything you say. And just because (at this moment) I don't think Obama is an asshole for saying that yesterday doesn't make me an ass kisser.

There's a balance that needs to be had. You just can't just release those few people without any plan what so ever. That's not safe.

 

[capslock]

<3 Lawrence . . . he takes no shit.

Yeah, what I like about him is that he will shut down disingeneousness and lying instantly, none of that 'I will sit politely while you spew your bullshit'.

 

[mckmas8808]

I think most people are actually waiting for the actual policy to sift through as opposed to basing an entire political argument on a phrase in a speech before commenting. I know it's weird and all.

I love you man. Karma this is exactly my position and how I feel. Why you hate something before you even know what it's about is confusing to me.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Yeah, that's what I was saying earlier about waiting to see how it's actually used. I do think that if he employs the detention option, it will fall in the courts. I suspect Obama knows that too. So I'm still holding out the hope that they'll use it as a last resort, and manage to deal with everyone without employing it.

Though Obama has been pretty keen to preface his actions with policy speeches and other signals so far.

But to keep things in perspective, buried in this bit of bad policy was a whole shitton of good policy got done this week.

• Reversal of Bush's preemption of states
• Credit card reform gets passed, signed into law
• Weapons procurement gets overhaul
• New mileage and emissions standards set, with industry, labor, environmental and state approval
• Signed additional mortgage fraud protections into law

People need to understand that I stand by Obama on a lot of policies and I think he will be a huge improvement over Bush... but that is not going to stop me from speaking out against him. I don't just ignore his bad policies because he has a bunch of other good policies...

Obama has said that he wants journalist to be tough on him, because it keeps him in line and it is the responsibility of the people and media to always voice our opinion especially when we disapprove.

Arguing against Obama and the Dem's doesn't mean you aren't supportive, it just means you want them to improve in areas you disagree. They work for us... not the other way around.

 

[PantherLotus]

Good points from TPM:

Larry v. Liz
Former West Wing executive producer Lawrence O'Donnell and Liz Cheney squared off on Good Morning America this morning.

Late Update: One point: I don't have any objection to the cable nets carrying Cheney's speech yesterday live. He's still newsworthy, and the juxtaposition of his speech and Obama's was dramatic if not quite momentous. But the idea that there's now a debate in this country in which Obama and Cheney represent the two sides, as Chris Cuomo claims in the GMA segment, is simply wrong.

Those who subscribe to the Cheney view were marginalized even within the Bush Administration five years ago. They lost that debate. Obama, on the other hand, has taken, as should now be obvious, a much less forceful stance on these issues than many of his supporters had hoped. You might call it a more centrist position (though I'm resistant to that characterization for several reasons). But in any event, it's not necessarily representative of the progressive point of view. Cheney is an outlier. He doesn't represent "one side" of this debate. But if you frame it as a debate between Cheney's extreme position and Obama's very moderate position, you've suddenly dictated an outcome to this so-called debate that is considerably to the right of where the political center is right now on this issue.

Maybe that's the strategy?

 

[Tamanon]

I love you man. Karma this is exactly my position and how I feel. Why you hate something before you even know what it's about is confusing to me.

An ironic statement from you considering your stance on the "terror plot" in New York.:lol

 

[BobTheFork]

Where did you get that from? Seriously, I didn't read it in the links above.

It wasn't specifically stated; It's what I gathered from what's been written. It really sounded like the mole was leading the group of guys, providing them with a plan and equipment. Excuse me if that's not the case.

 

[mckmas8808]

People need to understand that I stand by Obama on a lot of policies and I think he will be a huge improvement over Bush... but that is not going to stop me from speaking out against him. I don't just ignore his bad policies because he has a bunch of other good policies...

Obama has said that he wants journalist to be tough on him, because it keeps him in line and it is the responsibility of the people and media to always voice our opinion especially when we disapprove.

Arguing against Obama and the Dem's doesn't mean you aren't supportive, it just means you want them to improve in areas you disagree. They work for us... not the other way around.

Love this post.

The only thing I ask for you to stop doing is saying that Obama is not about Change. That list that you read is change.

 

[PantherLotus]

It wasn't specifically stated; It's what I gathered from what's been written. It really sounded like the mole was leading the group of guys, providing them with a plan and equipment. Excuse me if that's not the case.

It's not the case and you need to stop making up shit. I'm not sure why/where people are coming up with this entrapment/the mole made them do it theory. Bizzare.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Panther, my list updated, a couple of links added.

 

[mckmas8808]

An ironic statement from you considering your stance on the "terror plot" in New York.:lol

No I'm like you. I'm waiting on all the evidence. I was just talking about in general. And I don't want a government sitting on the sidelines if they get a tip that says "these" dudes want to blow some shit up.

 

[mckmas8808]

It's not the case and you need to stop making up shit. I'm not sure why/where people are coming up with this entrapment/the mole made them do it theory. Bizzare.

It's almost as if some people just don't want to believe that terrorism is real and could happen again in America. :\

 

[APF]

It wasn't specifically stated

It's not stated at all. At this point all you're going to get are self-serving statements from the accused's attorneys and random people who don't know shit.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Christ. I really am starting to believe in your tag. Who are you talking to? Who? More and more your posts are utterly disconnected with the actual conversation in here. It's like you're talking to yourself.

Panther, my list updated, a couple of links added.

I didn't realize that there was one actual conversation going on here. All I have been arguing is that I agree with Rachel Maddow's assessment yesterday of Obama's speech, then people criticized me for being too hard on Obama... to which I am responding by saying, that I am not going to focus on the positives of Obama's administration, instead I am going to voice my disapproval in the areas I disagree.

It only seems like I am talking to myself, because most people here are strong supporters of Obama. Perhaps in that sense I shouldn't bother coming in here anymore.

I don't see how that makes me ignorant.

 

[Tamanon]

I didn't realize that there was one actual conversation going on here. All I have been arguing is that I agree with Rachel Maddow's assessment yesterday of Obama's speech, then people criticized me for being too hard on Obama... to which I am responding by saying, that I am not going to focus on the positives of Obama's administration, instead I am going to voice my disapproval in the areas I disagree.

It only seems like I am talking to myself, because most people here are strong supporters of Obama. Perhaps in that sense I shouldn't bother coming in here anymore.

You have a weird victim stance you fall into. Your posts start normal and then denigrate into a "me against the world" stance. In fact, in this thread alone, several folks have agreed with you, several folks have disagreed with you.

 

[Karma Kramer]

You have a weird victim stance you fall into. Your posts start normal and then denigrate into a "me against the world" stance. In fact, in this thread alone, several folks have agreed with you, several folks have disagreed with you.

They only denigrate into "me against the world" because I am finding more and more that I disagree with the majority of GAF. Someone just implied that I am "ignorant" of course I am going to defend myself and opinion.

I just wish this place had more diversity politically. Its is sooo one sided.

 

[BobTheFork]

It's not the case and you need to stop making up shit. I'm not sure why/where people are coming up with this entrapment/the mole made them do it theory. Bizzare.

I'm not making shit up. Maybe it's the way it's been written about, but I'm not bullshitting what I thought when I read it. It comes across that regardless of who;s idea it was, this insider person came up with the plan and the (fake) equipment. Blame the damned writers. That doesn't mean I think these guys were victims. They were ready to kill innocent people, fuck them...you too.

 

[mAcOdIn]

I don't see what needs to be clarified for Obama's stance of legal indefinite detention to be ridiculed.

Honestly, with Gitmo parts of the government were in opposition, granted it was a power grab from the Executive Branch but being that it wasn't truly grounded in any kind of law it would be easy enough to do away with, basically the repeal of Gitmo or even the concept then could be eliminated just by electing 1 new person. You could prosecute the offenders.

Putting something like that into a law however? For one, I pray there isn't enough members of the House or Senate to even pass such a abomination, but provided it were, getting rid of such a thing would be much harder. I don't care if there's some stupid sunset provision, limiting it to non-Americans or what, it is pure trash. The fact that anyone believes there may be some kind of limitation that would make such a thing acceptable to me is scary.

It should have immediately drawn boos, the news should be on his ass for even suggesting such a thing and he should immediately know it is not a course to pursue and look elsewhere for a solution to Gitmo.

 

[capslock]

Michael Steele: The media didn't vet Obama because he's black.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...nt-vet-obama----because-hes-black.php?ref=fpc

I think my irony meter just exploded.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

<3 Lawrence . . . he takes no shit.

MSNBC should've given him a show instead of Ed.

 

[Karma Kramer]

It should have immediately drawn boos, the news should be on his ass for even suggesting such a thing and he should immediately know it is not a course to pursue and look elsewhere for a solution to Gitmo.

Exactly... he clearly said that he supports indefinite detention... regardless of how its implemented into law, it is still wrong.

 

[PantherLotus]

Panther, my list updated, a couple of links added.

:::THE CHECKLIST:::

Obama is the first black president.
[X] Gettin down to it.
[X] Checkin off his list.


Economy | Jobs
[X] Lower Class Tax Cuts/Upper Class Tax Hikes (repealing the Bush Tax cuts for the rich)
[X] Help American Auto Industry Survive Depression
[X] Credit card reform gets passed, signed into law
[X] Signed additional mortgage fraud protections into law


Environment | New Energy
[ ] 1 Million Plug-In Hybrids vehicles by 2015.
[X] New mileage and emissions standards set, with industry, labor, environmental and state approval


Health Care
[ ] Health Care (insurance for every American)


Defense | Foreign Relations | Diplomacy | Iraq/Afghanistan
[ ] Closing Guatanamo Bay
[ ] Torture Commision - Full Disclosure and Accounting
[X] Reversal of Bush's Preemption of States
[X] Weapons procurement gets overhaul


Education
[ ] Education Reform
[ ] Student Loan Reform


Social Causes
[ ] Gay Marriage Legalized
[ ] Don't Ask; Don't Tell Repealed
[ ] Decriminalize Marijuana
[ ] NCAA Football Tournament


============
If ANYONE would like additions made, entries corrected, or if you have ideas for things that should be on here, feel free to suggest. Links welcome, wanted, and appreciated.

 

[PantherLotus]

I'm pretty sure something about the Kyoto accords (have we gone back and repealed Bush's environmental bullshit?), the bail outs, and waterboarding illegalized all need to be on there. But I'm not sure how to word it and don't have the links at hand.

Anybody that helps will get credit in the OP if he or she wishes.

 

[mckmas8808]

It should have immediately drawn boos, the news should be on his ass for even suggesting such a thing and he should immediately know it is not a course to pursue and look elsewhere for a solution to Gitmo.

Do you even know what exactly to boo?

 

[octopusman]

Guantanamo - To close it? To close it not? - RNC Daisy Ad

Wow.

Can't they make better ads? Jesus...

 

[mckmas8808]

They only denigrate into "me against the world" because I am finding more and more that I disagree with the majority of GAF. Someone just implied that I am "ignorant" of course I am going to defend myself and opinion.

I just wish this place had more diversity politically. Its is sooo one sided.

macodin agrees with you and he's a republican. Stop acting like you are agruing against the world.

 

[mAcOdIn]

Do you even know what exactly to boo?

Better than many it seems.

macodin agrees with you and he's a republican. Stop acting like you are agruing against the world.

I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't classify me as a Republican, I'm not nearly as morally flexible or overbearing as that party.

Spoiler

I didn't even vote last election, I knew I'd hate Obama but I just couldn't vote for McCain in the end either. Sorry.

 

[PantherLotus]

I agree with some of Karma's stances, I just don't think his is a nuanced or realistic position.

 

[Karma Kramer]

macodin agrees with you and he's a republican. Stop acting like you are agruing against the world.

Yeah so how fucked up is it that the republican is the one attacking Bush/Cheney policies... and not the liberals?

Tis why I am starting to conclude some people here aren't looking at policies but instead at the parties.

"Oh hey Obama said this... I agree!"

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Can't they make better ads? Jesus...

Hey, it worked for LBJ.

 

[mckmas8808]

Yeah so how fucked up is it that the republican is the one attacking Bush/Cheney policies... and not the liberals?

Tis why I am starting to conclude some people here aren't looking at policies but instead at the parties.

"Oh hey Obama said this... I agree!"

That's silly. Obama and Cheney are not agreeing on the same policy. You are on the far left. People like Liz Cheney are on the far right.

I'm on the left and people like macodin are center right. So that means that sometimes DEMs will agree with macodin and sometimes they won't. He's not your average republican.

And honestly I'm hoping that the courts get to those "hard" terrorist's case first before Obama does. I'm interested to see what the Supreme Court would have to say about it.

 

[JayDubya]

Karma's not leftist at all.

 

[Karma Kramer]

That's silly. Obama and Cheney are not agreeing on the same policy.

Obama is completely flipping on his policies... its ridiculous... watch this video with Maddow (again) hammering on how Obama is actually "morphing into his predecssor"

edit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JI4X0u5tOg

 

[mAcOdIn]

macodin agrees with you and he's a republican.

Argh.

Yeah so how fucked up is it that the republican....

Argh, not again! I'm being slandered here!

Spoiler

LOL

Spoiler

Seriously guys, it might stick.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Karma's not leftist at all.

lol yeah far left? what?

I am an independent/libertarian baby!

Also sorry Mac about calling you a republican... I was just quoting Mckmas.

 

[mckmas8808]

lol yeah far left? what?

I am an independent/libertarian baby!

Also sorry Mac about calling you a republican... I was just quoting Mckmas.

Oh okay. That makes a bit more sense now that I think about it. But Rachel is the biggest cry baby on MSNBC. I love her show, but she always has took things a bit too far when she was scared that something that she wanted wasn't going to happen.

She honestly thought that Obama wasn't going to get elected because of some poll numbers and a small mistake. She's a complete chicken little. And most people on GAF knows that.

To say Obama is turning into Cheney is the biggest bullshit ever.

 

[speculawyer]

"I will only send you into harm's way when it is absolutely necessary, and with the strategy, the well-defined goals, the equipment and the support that you need to get the job done," the president told more than 1,000 graduates during a sun-splashed ceremony at Navy-Marine Corps Memorial Stadium.

I think Obama is baiting Cheney to keep talking to the press. :lol

 

[mAcOdIn]

lol yeah far left? what?

I am an independent/libertarian baby!

Also sorry Mac about calling you a republican... I was just quoting Mckmas.

I know, I'm just playing with it.

I don't really care about what happens on the internet, I don't take anything serious here, which maybe I should change because I'm harsher than I should be but since I wouldn't care about that doesn't mean that others also brush everything off like I do.

Now if someone signs me up for some Republican mailing or contact list then it'll be serious.

I just had a weird image of me getting furious over a trivial thing while sitting her petting my cat, made me smile.