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PoliGAF Thread of PRESIDENT OBAMA Checkin' Off His List

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scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
So it's radical to believe, correctly mind you, that personal experience effects a person's judgment - even when it comes to law?

Charles J. Ogletree Jr., a Harvard law professor and an adviser to Mr. Obama, said Judge Sotomayor’s remarks were appropriate. Professor Ogletree said it was “obvious that people’s life experiences will inform their judgments in life as lawyers and judges” because law is more than “a technical exercise,” citing Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.’s famous aphorism: “The life of the law has not been logic; it has been experience.”
WHAT A FUCKING RADICAL!! AMERICA CAN'T POSSIBLY LET SUCH NONSENSE HAPPEN!

LovingSteam said:
No, I can say one shouldn't use empthay since empathy isn't factual. Empathy will give one person a "one up" over another. Little johnny lost his mother when he was 15 so the defendant is a dead beat dad, well little johnny has had a much more difficult life. Well if the case is related to being a dead beat dad or losing ones parent than those are facts that can play a part. However, if the case is about something not related to either of the two mens life experience regarding these two areas then it shouldn't play a role at all.
Has Sotomayor ruled in such a case? How about this - take your purported legal knowledge and comb through her likely ample record and point out cases where this happened? Well, other than the single court case you keep referencing above.
 
PantherLotus said:
What is an activist judge?

A viewpoint advocating that judges should reach beyond the United States Constitution to attain the results that are consistent with contemporary conditions and values. Now you can respond to my question about the firefighters.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
To be clear, I think empathy might actually be a crutch that might prevent somebody from making the best legal opinion, so you can stop attacking that red herring.

So, what is an activist judge, for the 7th time?

edit: oh, you copied a definition out of your conservative handbook! how clever~!
 
scorcho said:
So it's radical to believe, correctly mind you, that personal experience effects a person's judgment - even when it comes to law?

WHAT A FUCKING RADICAL!! AMERICA CAN'T POSSIBLY LET SUCH NONSENSE HAPPEN!

Has Sotomayor ruled in such a case? How about this - take your purported legal knowledge and comb through her likely ample record and point out cases where this happened? Well, other than the single court case you keep referencing above.

Yes, ones life experience will have some influence one way or another, however, to be mindful of that when making a case is wrong. We become individuals influenced by our life experience automatically, I have not said otherwise. However, when making a decision based on facts its wrong to willfully use YOUR experience as a piece of the evidence when making your decision.
 

syllogism

Member
When the law is unclear, the decisions are shaped in part by the personal background and values of the person construing it. You shouldn't find it surprising that for example female judges have a different voting pattern on the issues including sex discrimination than males.
 
PantherLotus said:
To be clear, I think empathy might actually be a crutch that might prevent somebody from making the best legal opinion, so you can stop attacking that red herring.

So, what is an activist judge, for the 7th time?

Read up, gosh. Do you just write write write and not read what I write? I have asked you repeatedly now about your opinion on the firefighter case which you continue to avoid.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
LovingSteam said:
A viewpoint advocating that judges should reach beyond the United States Constitution to attain the results that are consistent with contemporary conditions and values. Now you can respond to my question about the firefighters.

How can a judge reach beyond the Constitution to attain results "consistent with contemporary conditions and values?" That's just another way of saying "I don't like her decisions."

Lame, and completely ignorant of how courts work. Judges don't make law, legislators do.
 
syllogism said:
When the law is unclear, the decisions are shaped in part by the personal background and values of the person construing it. You shouldn't find it surprising that for example female judges have a different voting pattern on the issues including sex discrimination than males.

I wouldn't find that surprising if they can base it on the evidence presented to them. However when Obama begins by arguing she will use empathy that is a problem I have. There is a difference of saying this person will be effected some way or another when deciding a case then asking how this person will decide before a case is presented.
 

syllogism

Member
Newsflash: the Constitution is a very short and limited document which is hardly ever on its own helpful when making a decision
 
PantherLotus said:
How can a judge reach beyond the Constitution to attain results "consistent with contemporary conditions and values?" That's just another way of saying "I don't like her decisions."

Lame, and completely ignorant of how courts work. Judges don't make law, legislators do.

How? Are you ignorant? Just because you don't believe they can doesn't mean they don't. Or do you believe ALL JUDGES making decisions that are logical and unbiased? Howabout judges that let rapists get probation only? Whatabout judges that have been found to be criminals in accepting bribes? Fact is judges are not always unbiased and for you to think they are is ridiculous.
 
syllogism said:
Newsflash: the Constitution is a very short and limited document which is hardly ever on its own helpful when making a decision

I realize that which is why there are many differing viewpoints on a particular case. However, again, I said that its wrong to say that one will be using empathy before a case is even presented.
 
PantherLotus said:
You can't define it either. There is absolutely no such thing.

And what do you know, still avoiding the firefighter case. Not surprising. You demand that people respond to your question but avoid theirs. Good job.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/06/opinion/06gewirtz.html?_r=1 said:
So Who Are the Activists?
By PAUL GEWIRTZ and CHAD GOLDER
Published: July 6, 2005

WHEN Democrats or Republicans seek to criticize judges or judicial nominees, they often resort to the same language. They say that the judge is "activist." But the word "activist" is rarely defined. Often it simply means that the judge makes decisions with which the critic disagrees.
In order to move beyond this labeling game, we've identified one reasonably objective and quantifiable measure of a judge's activism, and we've used it to assess the records of the justices on the current Supreme Court.

Here is the question we asked: How often has each justice voted to strike down a law passed by Congress?

Declaring an act of Congress unconstitutional is the boldest thing a judge can do. That's because Congress, as an elected legislative body representing the entire nation, makes decisions that can be presumed to possess a high degree of democratic legitimacy. In an 1867 decision, the Supreme Court itself described striking down Congressional legislation as an act "of great delicacy, and only to be performed where the repugnancy is clear." Until 1991, the court struck down an average of about one Congressional statute every two years. Between 1791 and 1858, only two such invalidations occurred.

Of course, calling Congressional legislation into question is not necessarily a bad thing. If a law is unconstitutional, the court has a responsibility to strike it down. But a marked pattern of invalidating Congressional laws certainly seems like one reasonable definition of judicial activism.

Since the Supreme Court assumed its current composition in 1994, by our count it has upheld or struck down 64 Congressional provisions. That legislation has concerned Social Security, church and state, and campaign finance, among many other issues. We examined the court's decisions in these cases and looked at how each justice voted, regardless of whether he or she concurred with the majority or dissented.

We found that justices vary widely in their inclination to strike down Congressional laws. Justice Clarence Thomas, appointed by President George H. W. Bush, was the most inclined, voting to invalidate 65.63 percent of those laws; Justice Stephen Breyer, appointed by President Bill Clinton, was the least, voting to invalidate 28.13 percent. The tally for all the justices appears below.

Thomas 65.63 %
Kennedy 64.06 %
Scalia 56.25 %
Rehnquist 46.88 %
O’Connor 46.77 %
Souter 42.19 %
Stevens 39.34 %
Ginsburg 39.06 %
Breyer 28.13 %


One conclusion our data suggests is that those justices often considered more "liberal" - Justices Breyer, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, David Souter and John Paul Stevens - vote least frequently to overturn Congressional statutes, while those often labeled "conservative" vote more frequently to do so. At least by this measure (others are possible, of course), the latter group is the most activist.

To say that a justice is activist under this definition is not itself negative. Because striking down Congressional legislation is sometimes justified, some activism is necessary and proper. We can decide whether a particular degree of activism is appropriate only by assessing the merits of a judge's particular decisions and the judge's underlying constitutional views, which may inspire more or fewer invalidations.

Our data no doubt reflects such differences among the justices' constitutional views. But it even more clearly illustrates the varying degrees to which justices would actually intervene in the democratic work of Congress. And in so doing, the data probably demonstrates differences in temperament regarding intervention or restraint.

These differences in the degree of intervention and in temperament tell us far more about "judicial activism" than we commonly understand from the term's use as a mere epithet. As the discussion of Justice Sandra Day O'Connor's replacement begins, we hope that debates about "activist judges" will include indicators like these.

So yeah, you're basically full of shit.
 

JayDubya

Banned
PantherLotus said:
You can't define it either. There is absolutely no such thing.

No, you just did.

A judge isn't supposed to make law, that's the legislature's job.

An activist judge is one that bypasses the legislative process to synthesize new law based only on their own values.

In the Supreme Court of the United States, this activity is especially odious, because we have an amendment process, and their presumed / assumed roll post Marbury v. Madison is one of judicial review, under which law can be declared unconstitutional.

An "activist judge," from a federal standpoint, is one that looks at the 9th Amendment and decides it means that he or she can just slap any ol' damn thing in there.
 
mamacint said:
So yeah, you're basically full of shit.

And you would be saying that to who? If its to me, how am i full of it? I was asked what defines one as an activist judge and I gave the response. I didn't specify anyone's political affiliation but gave an unbiased definition.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
LovingSteam said:
And what do you know, still avoiding the firefighter case. Not surprising. You demand that people respond to your question but avoid theirs. Good job.

Be quiet. Adults are talking.

Incidently, adults who understand how American politics work, including the different branches of government. When one uses the term "activist judge" seriously you remove yourself from an educated discussion.

You can go play now with the other kids.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
JayDubya said:
No, you just did.

A judge isn't supposed to make law, that's the legislature's job.

I know you're joking. Or, I know you're feigning ignorance of how our government works long enough that the other schmuck runs out of steam and stops embarassing you.
 
PantherLotus said:
Be quiet. Adults are talking.

Incidently, adults who understand how American politics work, including the different branches of government. When one uses the term "activist judge" seriously you remove yourself from an educated discussion.

You can go play now with the other kids.

And still avoiding it. Again, not surprising. Just throw out accusations and name calling against the person you are debating with, good job. I am sure that will win you brownie points. But hey, if you actually decide to debate then let me know. Other wise, I am going to go play with the kids who actually know how to debate and not get upset when someone asks them a question they cannot or will not answer.
 

JayDubya

Banned
PantherLotus said:
I know you're joking. Or, I know you're feigning ignorance of how our government works long enough that the other schmuck runs out of steam and stops embarassing you.

Where are the adults you said were talking? All I see is this juvenile bullshit.

Again, since you didn't see or didn't read it:

An activist judge is one that bypasses the legislative process to synthesize new law based only on their own values.

In the Supreme Court of the United States, this activity is especially odious, because we have an amendment process, and their presumed / assumed roll post Marbury v. Madison is one of judicial review, under which law can be declared unconstitutional.

An "activist judge," from a federal standpoint, is one that looks at the 9th Amendment and decides it means that he or she can just slap any ol' damn thing in there. That they have somehow found Ben Franklin's glasses from National Treasure and can find hidden messages and amendments that are, yup, totally in there.
 
LovingSteam said:
And you would be saying that to who? If its to me, how am i full of it? I was asked what defines one as an activist judge and I gave the response. I didn't specify anyone's political affiliation but gave an unbiased definition.
Terms like "strict constructionism" are just bullshit buzzwords to smokescreen deciding cases based on a particular idealogy, and "activist judges" is just one more arrow in the rightwing quiver to fire at something they don't like.

THEY'RE FUCKING MEANINGLESS
 

JayDubya

Banned
mamacint said:
Terms like "strict constructionism" are just bullshit buzzwords to smokescreen deciding cases based on a particular idealogy, and "activist judges" is just one more arrow in the rightwing quiver to fire at something they don't like.

THEY'RE FUCKING MEANINGLESS

Well they are if articles like the one you quote promote the notion and try to muddy the water with a false metric like simply overturning laws.

Overturning laws for being unconstitutional is kind of their raison d'etre if you're a fan of judicial review. That isn't inherently "activist."
 
LovingSteam said:
A viewpoint advocating that judges should reach beyond the United States Constitution to attain the results that are consistent with contemporary conditions and values. Now you can respond to my question about the firefighters.


LovingSteam said:
Read up, gosh. Do you just write write write and not read what I write? I have asked you repeatedly now about your opinion on the firefighter case which you continue to avoid.


LovingSteam said:
And what do you know, still avoiding the firefighter case. Not surprising. You demand that people respond to your question but avoid theirs. Good job.

Nice, three times and you refuse to answer. You had a hissy fit when I wouldn't respond to your question but avoid mine. That tells me more about you then your argument or lack there of itself.
 
wranging over "activist judge" is like basically playing verbal calvinball with a bunch of white supremacists, tax protesters, raging fundamentalists, or others that generally don't respect federal authority. just don't bother, and if they persist just call them names.

seems like a decent pick. republicans will drag it out and make it messy to try to get more donations from their base.
 

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
Fragamemnon said:
wranging over "activist judge" is like basically playing verbal calvinball with a bunch of white supremacists, tax protesters, raging fundamentalists, or others that generally don't respect federal authority. just don't bother, and if they persist just call them names.
:lol
 
mamacint said:
Terms like "strict constructionism" are just bullshit buzzwords to smokescreen deciding cases based on a particular idealogy, and "activist judges" is just one more arrow in the rightwing quiver to fire at something they don't like.

THEY'RE FUCKING MEANINGLESS

Again, people continue to defend this woman without even responding to the issue on the firefighter case. Oh I forgot, it is Obama's pick...
 
Fragamemnon said:
wranging over "activist judge" is like basically playing verbal calvinball with a bunch of white supremacists, tax protesters, raging fundamentalists, or others that generally don't respect federal authority. just don't bother, and if they persist just call them names.

seems like a decent pick. republicans will drag it out and make it messy to try to get more donations from their base.

Just like the dems did with Alito and Roberts, right?
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Fragamemnon said:
wranging over "activist judge" is like basically playing verbal calvinball with a bunch of white supremacists, tax protesters, raging fundamentalists, or others that generally don't respect federal authority. just don't bother, and if they persist just call them names.

seems like a decent pick. republicans will drag it out and make it messy to try to get more donations from their base.

Fair enough.
 
JayDubya said:
Well they are if articles like the one you quote promote the notion and try to muddy the water with a false metric like simply overturning laws.

Overturning laws for being unconstitutional is kind of their raison d'etre if you're a fan of judicial review. That isn't inherently "activist."
So you don't like when they get all legistlatey, except when they do!
 

JayDubya

Banned
Well it sure seems a few people wanted to play textual calvinball since they brought up activist judge and Roe v. Wade several, several times.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
LovingSteam said:
Again, people continue to defend this woman without even responding to the issue on the firefighter case. Oh I forgot, it is Obama's pick...

Do you know why the firefighter case is a big deal?

Trurl said:
You have the most appropriate tag in all of GAF.

Even when I agree with you I have an enormous desire to quote your tag.

:)

Feel free to quote my tag at any time. I earned it.
 

JayDubya

Banned
mamacint said:
So you don't like when they get all legistlatey, except when they do!

Overturning laws because they're unconstitutional is valid.

Overturning laws because you don't like them and you can presumably use secret hidden parts of the Constitution that only you and your magical glasses can find is not.

There's an amendment process, and it can be changed. In the meantime, it's their job to uphold the Constitution we have, not the one they wished we had.
 

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
If you want to argue the merits of the case, start a new thread. If you want to say that the case exemplifies her 'unworthiness,' well, this case isn't likely to be a Supreme Court unanimous ruling so what are you trying to argue? She leans left and roughly conforms to the other liberal judges on the Supreme Court.

Shocker here. A left-of-center President appointing a left-of-center SC judge. Will wonders never cease?
 
PantherLotus said:
Do you know why the firefighter case is a big deal?

I am not going to respond to any of your questions until you answer the one I have already asked repeatedly. I answered your question, you may respond to mine and then we may continue the banter. Of course, now you will say I am a kiddie and don't know how to answer your question, I know, I know.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
JayDubya said:
Overturning laws because they're unconstitutional is valid.

Overturning laws because you don't like them and you can presumably use secret hidden parts of the Constitution that only you and your magical glasses can find is not.

That's the problem. The only time I hear "activist judge!" is when that person disagrees.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
LovingSteam said:
I am not going to respond to any of your questions until you answer the one I have already asked repeatedly. I answered your question, you may respond to mine and then we may continue the banter. Of course, now you will say I am a kiddie and don't know how to answer your question, I know, I know.

I don't even know what your silly question is. What is it? You want me to explain her legal opinion?
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Judicial activism is just another buzzword that has little to no true meaning beyond talking heads and sound bites. It really isn't even worth bringing into legitimate discussion.

PantherLotus said:
That's the problem. The only time I hear "activist judge!" is when that person disagrees.

That's the only time it's used.
 

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
Macam said:
FIREFIGHTERS
I really hope Sessions repeatedly yells out FIREFIGHTERS with a 'am i right?' look on his face during the nomination hearing. Reminds me of McCain supporters yelling out 'APPEASEMENT' on television over and over again.
 
LovingSteam said:
Just like the dems did with Alito and Roberts, right?

I didn't think there was a lot of resistance to Roberts. Alito was a bit rockier but he went from committee to confirmed in like a week.

The GOP could punt on this, but that would be the smart thing to do and they are run by clowns, so bog down it is.
 
PantherLotus said:
I don't even know what your silly question is. What is it? You want me to explain her legal opinion?

I would like you to defend her legal opinion. I understand the cities arguments, I would like you to defend hers.
 

JayDubya

Banned
ivysaur12 said:
Judicial activism is just another buzzword that has little to no true meaning beyond talking heads and sound bites. It really isn't even worth bringing into legitimate discussion.

If you say so. I mean something very specific when I use it.
 

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
Roberts passed through with barely a scratch. Democrats focused their ire on Alito. The same trajectory could very well happen for Obama's picks - little opposition to the first, with excess munitions leveled at the potential second.
 
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