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[Nealand Liquor]

I don't think you accomplish that by saying "But what about the rights of men?" in articles posted about feminism. People don't go into threads about NYC stop and frisk and say, "but what about starving Africans." It seems to be a phenomenon unique to feminist threads that posters negate a social disparity by adopting the stance that they are confused by how we should strive to treat everyone the same and yet we should recognize things like racism and misogyny.

But I said nothing of "the rights of men', but just treating everyone with respect. I was simply talking about treating people as people, I don't understand why that is unwelcomed or threatening in a thread about feminism. Is treating people as equals not what every rights movement is about when we get to the root of it?

Besides I don't see how the promotion of equality denies the recognition of racism/misogyny in the slightest way.

 

[Kinitari]

I feel like I've read material that approaches the subject of male support in feminism better. As it goes, this wasn't terrible, but aside from the obvious issues pointed out in this thread, it really just didn't resonate with me. I don't feel inspired by this list, and if anything I sort of feel exhausted just reading it.

For example, at one point she mentions trying to intervene and help a woman out who might be getting hit on in a bar who doesn't seem to enjoy it. I have a whole host of reservations about this sort of thing. How do I know for sure she isn't in to it, first of all? Let's assume it's obvious she isn't into it, a part of me feels uncomfortable with the idea of me riding in on my horse to save someone from a bad situation, it in and of itself feels gross to me. But then there are things like... how am I even supposed to help? Do I go in all movie cliche and fake being her boyfriend?

I think my reservations with this one point reflect how I feel about many of the points made here - it feels like romanticism or unrealistic idealism. And that doesn't even get into the accusatory nature of the thing.

In short, I think someone posted a link earlier that I really liked a lot better, that did a better job of being both grounded and inclusive.

 

[Custard Trout]

Just depends on the person really?
I mean some of them "Women like space" so do I, so does anyone.

Women earn more than men, so it's your responsibility to pay for contraception, my fiancee earns more than me. If you're in a low level job and your SO isn't, they'll earn more.


I had other questions, but her FAQ does tend to answer most of them; it's an interesting read.

 

[YoungHav]

Annoyed by quite a bit of this list. What stands out most to me is the birth control, though. Why should the man pay? I'm pretty sure, in every relationship I've been in, we had sex because we both wanted to have sex. Simply put, the fairest way to go about anything that benefits both people is to split the cost. Why in the hell is the woman supposed to have 100% say in which method of birth control method is used while the man foots the bill? That is not equality and frankly I would feel taken advantage of.

Unless you're that broke, this sounds like complaining for the sake of complaining. You seriously put your hand out asking women for half the condom box costs? I think it's a woman's decision on whether or not you wrap your shit up or she decides to pop pills that are invasive enough to trick her body into thinking she's pregnant.

 

[Infinite]

Unless you're that broke, this sounds like complaining for the sake of complaining. You seriously put your hand out asking women for half the condom box costs? I think it's a woman's decision on whether or not you wrap your shit up or she decides to pop pills that are invasive enough to trick her body into thinking she's pregnant.

Yeah that's what I'm saying. Trifling shit I'm reading.

 

[impetuous_silly]

What is emotional work

Worrying.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Annoyed by quite a bit of this list. What stands out most to me is the birth control, though. Why should the man pay? I'm pretty sure, in every relationship I've been in, we had sex because we both wanted to have sex. Simply put, the fairest way to go about anything that benefits both people is to split the cost. Why in the hell is the woman supposed to have 100% say in which method of birth control method is used while the man foots the bill? That is not equality and frankly I would feel taken advantage of.

How do you feel pregnancy takes advantage of females?

 

[.la1n]

A good read and well thought out list, seems like things that would be fairly easy to incorporate into day to day activity. I'll be honest I used public transit as my primary transport for many years and It would never be out of my way to seek seats occupied by other males, I also regret that I did not always do so. I try to be more aware now of how my presence can effect others now.

 

[ZaCH3000]

By reading the FAQ, this list is positioning To be the rule, with obvious loopholes intended to be the exception, such as sexual attraction.

The compliment reasoning on 18b is easily dismissed by the fact that I'm a guy that has had lots of positive outcomes from complimenting a newly acquainted female on her body in a tasteful way. Context can't be ignored, however. My best girlfriends introduce me to their friends often so a layer of trust is already established I suppose.

Therefore, I'm of the opinion that the majority of this list should be considered the rule, with room for exceptions depending oontextual cues.

My advice to guys not versed in flirting or conversation is, it's okay. If this empowers women, they will hopefully be more bold with their dating habits by becoming more forthcoming with what they want and who they want. Dating is a complex thing it seems in today's America. There needs to be a balance of go-getters from both genders for any of the authors philosophy to work.

 

[jdouglas]

By reading the FAQ, this list is positioning To be the rule, with obvious loopholes intended to be the exception, such as sexual attraction.

The compliment reasoning on 18b is easily dismissed by the fact that I'm a guy that has had lots of positive outcomes from complimenting a newly acquainted female on her body in a tasteful way. Context can't be ignored, however. My best girlfriends introduce me to their friends often so a layer of trust is already established I suppose.

Therefore, I'm of the opinion that the majority of this list should be considered the rule, with room for exceptions depending oontextual cues.

My advice to guys not versed in flirting or conversation is, it's okay. If this empowers women, they will hopefully be more bold with their dating habits by becoming more forthcoming with what they want and who they want. Dating is a complex thing it seems in today's America. There needs to be a balance of go-getters from both genders for any of the authors philosophy to work.

That would be really nice. I'd like that a lot.

Aside: It feels like to me that there's a big, I don't know, aura, or tone of anxiety or veiled fear in the list; maybe even a fear of men. I don't like that.

 

[poppabk]

Unless you're that broke, this sounds like complaining for the sake of complaining. You seriously put your hand out asking women for half the condom box costs? I think it's a woman's decision on whether or not you wrap your shit up or she decides to pop pills that are invasive enough to trick her body into thinking she's pregnant.

Isn't he just saying the opposite of what she said. Why isn't it's inclusion in the list just complaining for the sake of complaining?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Annoyed by quite a bit of this list. What stands out most to me is the birth control, though. Why should the man pay? I'm pretty sure, in every relationship I've been in, we had sex because we both wanted to have sex. Simply put, the fairest way to go about anything that benefits both people is to split the cost. Why in the hell is the woman supposed to have 100% say in which method of birth control method is used while the man foots the bill? That is not equality and frankly I would feel taken advantage of.

The woman is the one carrying the pregnancy. She takes all the risks. It's not just about money, for fuck's sake...

 

[Scrooged]

The woman is the one carrying the pregnancy. She takes all the risks. It's not just about money, for fuck's sake...

It's not that black and white. A woman has the choice to get an abortion....even if the father wants the child. If she decides to go through with the pregnancy she can then give up the child no questions asked. The father still has no say in this. And if the father doesn't want the child and she does, she can force him to pay. So no, lets not act like men have no risks.

 

[Tragicomedy]

Half this shit is common sense. A fourth of it is somewhat revelatory and a useful read. A fourth of it is batshit crazy.

 

[Orayn]

It's not that black and white. A woman has the choice to get an abortion....even if the father wants the child. If she decides to go through with the pregnancy she can then give up the child no questions asked. The father still has no say in this. And if the father doesn't want the child and she does, she can force him to pay. So no, lets not act like men have no risks.

It's hard to buy the argument that women hold all the cards when one of two major political parties in the US is actively trying to limit their reproductive rights, and even succeeding in some cases.

If that's what you really believe, however, you should still agree with #8. A man who wants to avoid all those things should take all reasonable measures to prevent pregnancy.

 

[YoungHav]

Isn't he just saying the opposite of what she said. Why isn't it's inclusion in the list just complaining for the sake of complaining?

The article writer states her point clearly, she is not complaining for the sake of. I've never heard of men whining about paying for contraception. In my nearly 2 decades of sexual activity it's never even crossed my mind that me paying for condoms is an issue to whine about monetarily.

It's not that black and white. A woman has the choice to get an abortion....even if the father wants the child. If she decides to go through with the pregnancy she can then give up the child no questions asked. The father still has no say in this. And if the father doesn't want the child and she does, she can force him to pay. So no, lets not act like men have no risks.

No. The point was the woman assumes the risk of pregnancy and the physical changes that comes with that. Your concerns can be alleviated by strapping up and having sex responsibly.

 

[Scrooged]

It's hard to buy the argument that women hold all the cards when one of two major political parties in the US is actively trying to limit their reproductive rights, and even succeeding in some cases.

If that's what you really believe, however, you should still agree with #8. A man who wants to avoid all those things should take all reasonable measures to prevent pregnancy.

By and large, women do hold all of the cards right now. Fathers have practically no say in whether they want or do not want the child. Post-birth even.

As far as #8, I think it goes without saying and is common sense. If her point is that guys should buy the condoms (not necessarily other methods like the pill for example) then I think most all guys are fine with that.

 

[Scrooged]

No. The point was the woman assumes the risk of pregnancy and the physical changes that comes with that. Your concerns can be alleviated by strapping up and having sex responsibly.

I was responding to someone who said that woman take literally all the risks. Pregnancy is just one aspect of having a child.

 

[Infinite]

By and large, women do hold all of the cards right now. Fathers have practically no say in whether they want or do not want the child. Post-birth even.

This is not true. Fathers are able to ask for custody of their child and courts are more than willing to grant them such even if the mother is asking for the same. The problem is so few fathers do that.

 

[Diatribe1974]

Here's the rule of thumb that I was raised on and is pretty damned good if you ask me:

Dad raised me under the mentality of that all boys (men), should treat women as they would their own mother. Same goes with what they'd say to them as well. Our daughters (women) should be the same regarding men in that they should be as if they're their fathers.

In the end, you gain a tremendous amount of respect given and received.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

By and large, women do hold all of the cards right now. Fathers have practically no say in whether they want or do not want the child. Post-birth even.

Can you provide some sources on this? I can believe it, but "practically no say" is a bit stronger than I thought.

 

[way more]

But I said nothing of "the rights of men', but just treating everyone with respect. I was simply talking about treating people as people, I don't understand why that is unwelcomed or threatening in a thread about feminism. Is treating people as equals not what every rights movement is about when we get to the root of it?

Besides I don't see how the promotion of equality denies the recognition of racism/misogyny in the slightest way.

Because it's dismissive of the topic the author is trying to relate. If I want to talk about the plight of homeless in NYC and you chime in "but what about the poor in NYC, or the minorities, or the disabled." When you generalize the argument so much that it goes from solving misogyny to solving bad feelings in general you are attempting to nullify the original point.


Here is a write up on why #notallmen is such a toxic idea from a astronomer who talks outside of his field of expertise just because he was so sick of seeing the deflection people use to ignore misogyny.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astr..._discussing_women_s_issues_gets_derailed.html

"It's dismissive, it's defensive and when people are defensive, they aren’t listening to the other person; they’re busy thinking of ways to defend themselves. Third, the people saying it aren’t furthering the conversation, they’re sidetracking it."

 

[Aizo]

Very informative list. I think some aspects are open for more discussion between two people, and a set rule isn't really going to cut it (such as taking the name after marriage. I am fine with both parties keeping their own names, but what of their children? I don't think they should take the father's name, specifically, but there really isn't a fair option besides a hyphenated name. I'd rather have a portmanteau name. Is that allowed? That'd be sweet.), but I still largely agree with the list.

This is not true. Fathers are able to ask for custody of their child and courts are more than willing to grant them such even if the mother is asking for the same. The problem is so few fathers do that.

Unless I've misunderstood, I'm almost certain it's the other way around. I'm not one to direct attention to male issues because they are far fewer, but I am pretty sure women have usually gain custody over men.
"Across a wide range of jurisdictions the estimates are that mothers receive primary custody 68-88% of the time, fathers receive primary custody 8-14%, and equal residential custody is awarded in only 2-6% of the cases."
Source: Here

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Good points on the defensive stuff.